I owned a 4Runner for an hour on Sunday...

[Andrew]

I've been trying to trade my Jeep for a late-model 4Runner for quite some time now. I came across one at a high-end used car (think Ferrari and Aston Martin) dealership in suburban Indianapolis for a good price. It was a really clean truck with 33,800 miles on it. Drove it last weekend, liked the price, they gave me good on my trade, the Toyota dealership said it had been in for a 30k service... so I was all set. Through a friend of the family, I know the owners of the high-end used car dealership, so I trust them. Bought the 4Runner, said goodbye to my Jeep, and went to the Toyota dealership to order an extra oh sh!t handle for the driver's side and to get a print-out of the services performed for my records... Well, we get to the dealership and they pull up the service record... apparently 100 miles and one week before it was traded it was taken in because it was burning oil. Toyota found sludge in the engine and recommended the engine block be replaced to the tune of $5800. That was not done- the 4Runner was traded. I went back to the dealership fuming- they knew nothing of it, they talked to the previous owner and he said "oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that..." Turns out that he didn't change the oil for the first 30,000 miles!!

The dealership is now going to take action against the previous owner for not disclosing a potentially serious problem. The previous owner, without going into great detail, is somewhat of a public figure in Indianapolis.

Lessons learned today:
1) Never buy a vehicle without full knowledge of its history. This was a really clean car traded in on a Porsche. One would think that someone who bought a Porsche would maintain his previous car.
2) Never trust what you can't see in person. I called the Toyota dealership and got the service record; they only said it was in for service, and I assumed it was just routine. Apparenlty had I been there we would have clicked one more screen and would have seen that the dealership more or less said "this 4Runner is screwed."
3) I am limiting my search to fully documented 4Runners or Toyota certified 4Runners. I don't know how much the certification process does, but at least it guarantees me that if the vehicle is fubar'd Toyota will cover it. They won't cover sludge on a non-certified vehicle because it was improperly maintained to start with.

The service manager at the Toyota dealership said he was surprised that the 4Runner was still running since it hadn't been repaired! That's about when my heart took a dive.

Here are some pictures of the 4Runner. Note that I even had a temp plate on it! I actually had the title in my hands for about an hour. The search continues....

 

[Thai]

Sorry to hear that...good luck in your search!

 

[rando]

Man you must have been sweating profusely! I would have bet a nickle that the dealer wouldn't take it back (at least not without a fight).

 

[Andrew]

Man you must have been sweating profusely! I would have bet a nickle that the dealer wouldn't take it back (at least not without a fight).

Nah, they had their reputation to protect. I figured they would take it back... they didn't make a ton on it anyway. They now know that they got screwed by taking it in on trade- it's worth very little now.

 

[NoDak]

wouldnt the lemon law (so to speak) apply in this instance? if the dealer that sold it wouldnt take it back, you could have gone down this route.

 

[jharris2]

wouldnt the lemon law (so to speak) apply in this instance? if the dealer that sold it wouldnt take it back, you could have gone down this route.

Not necessarily....you can sell a used car as-is and no lemon law applies.

 

[NoDak]

hmm, must different for each state. even if there is an "as is" sticker, there is some recourse i would think within the first 24hrs or 7-30days of sale isnt there?


note:
Is a Used or Leased Car protected?
It depends upon which State the car was purchased or leased in. Some states include used and leased cars in their Lemon Law statutes. Some states have separate laws for used vehicles. Some states provide protection only for new cars. In some states, even the Attorney General is unable to tell you if a Leased vehicle is covered due to the way the law is phrased and you will be referred to an Attorney for clarification of the law. See the Lemon Law Summary and the State Statutes for your particular State to determine what is covered.

here is a webiste about used cars lemon law and which state have used car lemon laws

http://www.carlemon.com/

 

[rando]

I'm not a lawyer and nothing posted here should be confused for legal advice.

I successfully used the CA Lemon Law just last year against Ford. I owned my new '02 Exploder for all of 6 weeks and 1200 miles before the tranny let go. They replaced it with a new tranmission and that one failed the moment I got back into the driver's seat (LOL). The third tranny was a rebuilt. Since it was in the shop for more than 30 days within the first 18 months, I was able to get my $ back (with the help of a lawyer).

Just because the OPs truck was previously diagnosed with a defect, doesn't automatically qualify him for protection under the Federal Lemon Law (certain state versions could be different). The car must have a 'serious' and/or 'safety' related failure that cannot be repaired after 3 attempts or 30 days. Also, I don't think the Federal statute provides ANY protection for used cars though certain State statutes may be more liberal. Ultimately however, it's all up to what your lawyer thinks he can win.

A more likely outcome would have been for the seller to repair the car under whatever used car warranty was provided. Even that could have been a source of dispute since apparently there were no obvious symptoms of the previously diagnosed defect.

I think the relationship the OP had with the seller was the key. He was fortunate that they were willing to unroll the deal.

I'm not a lawyer and nothing posted here should be confused for legal advice.

 

[Andrew]

Not necessarily....you can sell a used car as-is and no lemon law applies.

I would have done some research had I had to deal with this, but IIRC, prior knowledge of a problem without disclosing it to a future owner is illegal. Thus, the previous owner of this 4Runner will be in trouble with the dealership I (temporarily) bought it from. He took it in for service 100 miles before it was traded- that's when he found out that he had done $5800 in damages for not changing the oil ever. He did not disclose this information to the dealership. Had he, they would have 1) given him considerably less on trade; and 2) not put the 4Runner up for resale. The dealership is a privately owned partnership that has a terrific reputation among sports car enthusiasts in Indianapolis, and they wouldn't want to ruin that reputation on the sale of "just a 4Runner." (they only kept it because it was SOOO clean; otherwise they'd have sent it to auction. And it really was a clean 4Runner... :dammit: )

On the upside, I found another one that isn't quite as good a deal but should be a better 4Runner! We shall see... still have more research to do.

andrew

 

[peter78]

I would consider yourself very lucky. I know we have arguments (discussions) on when to change the oil on this forum. I remember working with someone ( I'll call him Mike) and I noticed in his car he had a sticker that had mileage for his next oil change. I said Mike "That sticker says you haven't changed your oil in 18,000 miles, I hope that is wrong." "Oh no, it burns a lot of oil so I just put a quart of oil in every 1,500 miles." Bottom line his car stopped running within 3 months and his Wife's Van had to get a new engine due to sludge in the lower and upper parts of the engine.

People still do stupid things, maybe he read the "Oil Bible" or maybe it is just easier to forget it. I think if you weren't quite so thorugh, you may of gotten stuck. Good luck on your search.

 

[NoDak]

at least in the end this story has a happy ending. you got your money back and walked away with a little experience that will help you in your next purchase.

 

[Andrew]

at least in the end this story has a happy ending. you got your money back and walked away with a little experience that will help you in your next purchase.

Yeah, I had actually called the Toyota dealership and was told that it had been in for a 30k service and they said nothing strange was noted. Well, it was in at 30k, but it was not a normal service; nothing normal was performed, just a recommendation to replace the engine block because of a sludge build up.... argh.

andrew

 

[aj884runner]

Used Junk

Having heard of you bad experience I have to let everyone be wary of the growing problem of car owners who do not change the oil in vehicles. I am a mechanic in a general auto repair facility in a small town in Canada. My shop owner was interested in buying a late model Dodge Ram 2500 Quad Cab with either the V10 or the 5.7Hemi. His brother-in-law is a salesman at a Ford dealership and said he had one, with a hemi, in great shape with 47,000km(29,000miles). He drove it down to our shop for my boss to look at. It takes about 45min to get there. The truck was immaculate and the brother-in-law said they haven`t even cleaned it up yet. My boss put the truck on the ramp hoist and put it up in the air. The truck was extremely clean. Then he noticed the oil filter. It still was the factory filter! We put the truck down and checked the oil. It was black, very black, and still cold after all that driving. My boss didn`t go any further and told his brother-in-law to take the piece of crap back. Later in the afternoon my boss got a call from the service manager at the Ford dealership and said that Dogde has been using the factory oil filters on the hemi`s because there wasn`t one available yet. My boss said whatever and hung up the phone. He then looked up in the Kralinator book to see what oil filter the hemi required. It was the same filter Dogde has used on just about everything for the past 14 years!
We have seen this before, but usaully on leased vehicles. If you are iterested in purchasing a used vehicle be sure to have it looked at by a mechanic and stop by a dealer to see if the work has been done on it or look for repair reciepts.
Best of luck to all those who purchase used vehicles.

 

[alphonsus]

I think if you could snatch it up for around $3K it would definately be a bargain. JDM motors cant cost much more $2K. So $5K and a days work, you got yourself a banging 4runner.

Even though the JDM motor may not be new, they usually have very little milage on them, and the oil probably changed more than 2-3 times.