Installing 2.2" pulley and an SAFC II or Neo for tuning.

[Dawgz]

So I've had my 2001 boosted for about a year now with the stock 2.37" pulley getting about 7psi. I've purchased the URD 2.2" pulley half a year ago and also have the Supra 312cc injectors to go with it. I know the majority of the folks here use the URD 7th injector and I'm finding it very rare that someone has been using the SAFC option. I get it that you cannot retard timing with the SAFC but do you really need to at the power we are looking to get out of the 5VZ at 9.5psi....I don't think it's mandatory.

I've used an SAFC II in the past in a Toyota engine (1MZ boosted to 6psi making 240whp) with no issues at all for over three years before I sold the car.

I checked online and the ECU pinout diagram is no where to be found, I could purchase the Toyota 15$ subscription or also use the boomslang plug and play harness for the 2001 4runner wired specifically for the SAFC Neo: Boomslang Plug n Play Harness - APEXi AFC Neo - THMotorsports - Discount Performance Car & Truck Parts Sale | Lowest Price | Free Shipping

This is what I'm likely going to do.

I'll post my current AFR (cruise and WOT) with the stock pulley, no tune, stock injectors, walbro 190lph fuel pump and the free FMU mod.

Looking for comments on this approach, has anyone else gone down this path as well?

 

[Dawgz]

7psi, stock injectors, Free FMU mod (FPR hooked up to SC boost port), Walbro 190lph fuel pump.

AFRs:

Idle: 14.7-14.9
Wot: 12-11.5
Partial throttle, under boost: 14.6

Really surprised I saw the wide band pegged at 11.5 A/F under WOT with the stock injectors.

Really need to tune it and see if I can get the partial throttle boost a bit richer, won't be 11.8 as its still closed loop but anything better than 14.6

 

[Dawgz]

Not too many boosted folks here I guess?

 

[Run 4 Fun]

Not too many boosted folks here I guess?

The forums tend to die down on the weekends. Plenty of boosted here including myself, but can't offer any opinions as I'm fairly noobish with it all. Shout out to [MENTION=53337]SCRunner12[/MENTION] @MTD [MENTION=63487]A.Wilson013[/MENTION], maybe they can offer their expertise.

 

[Dawgz]

Ah ok, I see.

 

[SCRunner12]

Never dove to deep into boost and afr with my sc but @mtd and [MENTION=14772]shootmymime[/MENTION] have been pretty detailed about their boost and afr findings.

 

[JayRolla]

IMO the safc will work fine. It only becomes an issue when running really large injectors causing the ecu to stay in closed loop timing map at full throttle. It can handle up to 550cc usually without issues.

 

[A.Wilson013]

When I bought my 4Runner it had an SAFC II installed with Supra Injectors ( I think they were 315cc... They were green in color), and a Walbro 255lph fuel pump.

The first thing I did when I got it was took it to a dyno shop to have it tuned correctly because it was running very strangely. After holding boost for long periods of time (like driving up a long, steep hill) when I dropped out of boost (at the summit, for example) the 4Runner would go lean as all hell, lose all power, and sometimes even die.

Took it to the shop, they dialed it in as well as they could, and said they were having no luck tuning the higher RPMS. Regardless of the values they used, nothing would change.

My issue carried on.

Fast forward a month and I bought the 6 injector controller from URD. Took it to the same shop for tuning, and same story. Tuned spot on up until like 4000 rpm, then NOTHING they did would give it enough fuel.

My issue carried on.

Fast forward a couple months (had to save some money as my wife was getting pretty mad at this point) and I bought a set of 6 factory injectors, URD 7th injector kit, and 2.2 pulley. Took it to the same shop, and they had NO issues tuning whatsoever.

My leaning out issue was fixed.

In my opinion, there's a reason that you'll have a very hard time finding anyone running the setup you're looking at. I was using a very well known local shop and they just could NOT get it working regardless of what they tried. Something just wasn't working.

If I were you, I'd take those injectors and head over to this thread... http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/201223-how-aem-f-ic-6-install-tuning-help-thread.html. I wish people were toying with this setup when I still had all my parts.

 

[shootmymime]

you will be fine as far as fuel, but timing is important.

on hot days you can really induce spark knock with high boost and that causes problems, even when afr are in check (11s) you will get more power out of adjusting timing of course.

i think the main concern is being able to adjust timing for when those hot days are here and the truck is on the verge of pinging.



http://www.lcengineering.com/LCInstructions/1063078 u-tune-aic.pdf

The knock threshold is the point where there will start to be some spark knock. The engines knock sensors pick up spark knock and when the ECU sees that spark knock is starting to occur it will reduce the ignition timing slightly. Then after a programmed period of time will start advancing the timing again until it sees knock and the process repeats, many times a second. Just remember the ignition timing is dynamic. This means it is constantly self-adjusting and the ECU keeps the timing right at the knock threshold.

Now lets talk about some things that affect the knock threshold. In our test
engine the ignition timing will usually be about 20 degrees advance at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and redline. Variables that affect the knock threshold are; octane level of fuel, the fuel mixture, induction air temperatures, engine temperatures, compression ratio and so on. Now we stuff in 6 PSI of boost in this same engine with a roots style supercharger that builds boost as the engine RPMs increase. The ECU is now reporting that the ignition has dropped to 14 degrees of advance with a reduction of 6 degrees. With forced induction installed on our test engine pushing in 6 PSI the cylinder pressure has increased and that has made the cylinder charge more prone to knock. This causes the knock threshold to be much lower then on the stock engine. The ECU is still doing its dynamic ignition timing adjustments, and has self adjusted the ignition timing down to the new knock threshold.

 

[JayRolla]

you will be fine as far as fuel, but timing is important.

on hot days you can really induce spark knock with high boost and that causes problems, even when afr are in check (11s) you will get more power out of adjusting timing of course.

i think the main concern is being able to adjust timing for when those hot days are here and the truck is on the verge of pinging.



http://www.lcengineering.com/LCInstructions/1063078 u-tune-aic.pdf

The knock threshold is the point where there will start to be some spark knock. The engines knock sensors pick up spark knock and when the ECU sees that spark knock is starting to occur it will reduce the ignition timing slightly. Then after a programmed period of time will start advancing the timing again until it sees knock and the process repeats, many times a second. Just remember the ignition timing is dynamic. This means it is constantly self-adjusting and the ECU keeps the timing right at the knock threshold.

Now lets talk about some things that affect the knock threshold. In our test
engine the ignition timing will usually be about 20 degrees advance at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and redline. Variables that affect the knock threshold are; octane level of fuel, the fuel mixture, induction air temperatures, engine temperatures, compression ratio and so on. Now we stuff in 6 PSI of boost in this same engine with a roots style supercharger that builds boost as the engine RPMs increase. The ECU is now reporting that the ignition has dropped to 14 degrees of advance with a reduction of 6 degrees. With forced induction installed on our test engine pushing in 6 PSI the cylinder pressure has increased and that has made the cylinder charge more prone to knock. This causes the knock threshold to be much lower then on the stock engine. The ECU is still doing its dynamic ignition timing adjustments, and has self adjusted the ignition timing down to the new knock threshold.

Very easy fix. E85. Then you can actually add timing. Lean out afr and get the most power possible.

I've ran 30psi, 24* max timing at 12.5 gas equivalent AFR on other motors. Never a single blip of detonation.

 

[JayRolla]

When I bought my 4Runner it had an SAFC II installed with Supra Injectors ( I think they were 315cc... They were green in color), and a Walbro 255lph fuel pump.

The first thing I did when I got it was took it to a dyno shop to have it tuned correctly because it was running very strangely. After holding boost for long periods of time (like driving up a long, steep hill) when I dropped out of boost (at the summit, for example) the 4Runner would go lean as all hell, lose all power, and sometimes even die.

Took it to the shop, they dialed it in as well as they could, and said they were having no luck tuning the higher RPMS. Regardless of the values they used, nothing would change.

My issue carried on.

Fast forward a month and I bought the 6 injector controller from URD. Took it to the same shop for tuning, and same story. Tuned spot on up until like 4000 rpm, then NOTHING they did would give it enough fuel.

My issue carried on.

Fast forward a couple months (had to save some money as my wife was getting pretty mad at this point) and I bought a set of 6 factory injectors, URD 7th injector kit, and 2.2 pulley. Took it to the same shop, and they had NO issues tuning whatsoever.

My leaning out issue was fixed.

In my opinion, there's a reason that you'll have a very hard time finding anyone running the setup you're looking at. I was using a very well known local shop and they just could NOT get it working regardless of what they tried. Something just wasn't working.

If I were you, I'd take those injectors and head over to this thread... http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/201223-how-aem-f-ic-6-install-tuning-help-thread.html. I wish people were toying with this setup when I still had all my parts.

Your injectors where to small. Hitting 100%+ IDC's. Causing you to lean out. You where running out of fuel from maxing the injectors.

 

[shootmymime]

Very easy fix. E85. Then you can actually add timing. Lean out afr and get the most power possible.

I've ran 30psi, 24* max timing at 12.5 gas equivalent AFR on other motors. Never a single blip of detonation.

i want to create a tune for e85.

 

[A.Wilson013]

Your injectors where to small. Hitting 100%+ IDC's. Causing you to lean out. You where running out of fuel from maxing the injectors.

Well, OP is saying his injectors are 312cc, so why would his setup be fine when mine was not...?

On an un-related note I just read a few of your posts on some DSM forum yesterday while looking into replacing my (yet again) failing Walbro 190 (3rd in 80k miles) with an EVO 8/9 Denso pump. Finally found one for sale on EvoM, so hopefully he doesn't try to rip me off.

 

[JayRolla]

Well, OP is saying his injectors are 312cc, so why would his setup be fine when mine was not...?

On an un-related note I just read a few of your posts on some DSM forum yesterday while looking into replacing my (yet again) failing Walbro 190 (3rd in 80k miles) with an EVO 8/9 Denso pump. Finally found one for sale on EvoM, so hopefully he doesn't try to rip me off.

I would guess you did not have supra injectors. You would think 312cc would be good enough for the power levels your making. But the motor/tune never lies. Your fuel pump was big enough, you where tuning and high rpm lost fuel. You swapped injectors which fixed the issue. So either bad or not 312's.

Those walbros need to be submerged in fuel at all times to make it last. Supra 300lph or the evo9 190lph is only way to go. I miss my DSM forum so bad, I got my fix here for sure. Im a little bit of a post whore!

 

[JayRolla]

Well, OP is saying his injectors are 312cc, so why would his setup be fine when mine was not...?

On an un-related note I just read a few of your posts on some DSM forum yesterday while looking into replacing my (yet again) failing Walbro 190 (3rd in 80k miles) with an EVO 8/9 Denso pump. Finally found one for sale on EvoM, so hopefully he doesn't try to rip me off.

Just did a HP calculation on 312cc injectors on a 6 banger at 45psi fuel pressure. Says they would only support 252whp supercharged. I would guess now that they are not large enough for this application. Something around 450cc would be a lot better.

 

[A.Wilson013]

I would guess you did not have supra injectors. You would think 312cc would be good enough for the power levels your making. But the motor/tune never lies. Your fuel pump was big enough, you where tuning and high rpm lost fuel. You swapped injectors which fixed the issue. So either bad or not 312's.

Those walbros need to be submerged in fuel at all times to make it last. Supra 300lph or the evo9 190lph is only way to go. I miss my DSM forum so bad, I got my fix here for sure. Im a little bit of a post whore!

I surely had Supra injectors. Part number was 23250-70080 - the light green top ones. I always thought they were 315cc, but apparently, like OP stated, they're 312cc.

What we thought fixed the issue was going from the 6 injector controller to the 7th injector. Apparently a whole bunch of folks had issues trying to run 6 larger injectors on 99+ models.

I sold my 312cc injectors and URD controller to a guy with a 97 and he has been running it without issue for a couple years now.

I don't know enough about this stuff to try and say what will and won't work, and why it will or will not. All I know is that it did not work for me, and I should have just went for the 7th injector setup from the get go.

 

[JayRolla]

I surely had Supra injectors. Part number was 23250-70080 - the light green top ones. I always thought they were 315cc, but apparently, like OP stated, they're 312cc.

What we thought fixed the issue was going from the 6 injector controller to the 7th injector. Apparently a whole bunch of folks had issues trying to run 6 larger injectors on 99+ models.

I sold my 312cc injectors and URD controller to a guy with a 97 and he has been running it without issue for a couple years now.

I don't know enough about this stuff to try and say what will and won't work, and why it will or will not. All I know is that it did not work for me, and I should have just went for the 7th injector setup from the get go.

I posted above where the HP calculator pretty much maxes supra injectors at 250whp. So I could see you running out of fuel with those. IMO 550's would be the best option for most setups and an SAFC.

 

[Dawgz]

Wow soo many replies! Sorry have been away from this thread will watch it more closely.

So at the moment I have a walbro 190LPH fuel pump, stock 250cc injectors and using the 2.37", 7psi pulley on the Gen1 SC. At WOT I am seeing my AFRs pegged at 11.8, I watched timing as well and I did not see it move from 14, timing is not being pulled at WOT.

Now, my near future plan is to drop in the brown top Supra injectors which at said to be 312CC, I see they are good enough for 250whp but that's plenty...I'm really looking for 240whp realistically.

Purchased my Apexi Neo to tune this, gotta get my boomslang harness and I should be able to send the injectors in for cleaning and then install.