Inv4drZm's Build Thread

[Inv4drZm]

That pesky bumpsteer at full droop.

Its a vid but you have to click on it to watch I guess.

Bumpsteer by Mason Zimmerman, on Flickr

 

[aemravan]

can't tell you how much excitement is going on over here man.. stellar work.
Can't wait to see this finished up.

Good point on lengthening the factory spindle.. if your mount points remain unchanged between UCA/LCA then I agree 100% there is absolutely nothing gain, and everything to lose by changing that length. I wasn't sure if your LCA allowed the mounting point to the spindle to sit lower than stock or not.

For what it's worth, for my application I would be more than satisfied with a DIY LT kit that allowed for an 8" shock along with the factory spindle. Those billet spindles look amazing, but I can already tell that they won't be cheap lol. I guess the option would still remain to cut the upper portion of the stock spindle and weld in a horizontal uniball for added travel. Regardless, super excited about this and if you can definitely put me on the list of buyers if you end up going that route.

 

[Inv4drZm]

can't tell you how much excitement is going on over here man.. stellar work.
Can't wait to see this finished up.

Good point on lengthening the factory spindle.. if your mount points remain unchanged between UCA/LCA then I agree 100% there is absolutely nothing gain, and everything to lose by changing that length. I wasn't sure if your LCA allowed the mounting point to the spindle to sit lower than stock or not.

For what it's worth, for my application I would be more than satisfied with a DIY LT kit that allowed for an 8" shock along with the factory spindle. Those billet spindles look amazing, but I can already tell that they won't be cheap lol. I guess the option would still remain to cut the upper portion of the stock spindle and weld in a horizontal uniball for added travel. Regardless, super excited about this and if you can definitely put me on the list of buyers if you end up going that route.

I think most people would prefer the cost and simplicity of just upgrading the A arms, but if you're wanting the JD fab double shear tie rod mounts and spindle gussets, the costs add up pretty quick to over $400 plus welder cost. If the fabricated spindle adds additional strength and travel for a couple hundred more than that it might make sense.

I tried to avoid designing the spindle and tie rod arm as one piece like Marlin's due to cost, but I might as well get it quoted both ways, who knows.

 

[aemravan]

Cost is a big factor for sure.. but I guess it really depends on what the difference will end up being. I certainly wouldn't want to go through the cost and process of building out a LT setup, making 37's work, just to have the LC200 rack rip off the mount .. not that I wheel it extremely hard, but still would be nice to have that piece of mind.

For me the only thing I would need to figure out/have done is on the RCV Axle side, I would need to send off my axles and have them put in the extended alxe shafts, which isn't really an issue, just an extra step in the process.

 

[Inv4drZm]

Cost is a big factor for sure.. but I guess it really depends on what the difference will end up being. I certainly wouldn't want to go through the cost and process of building out a LT setup, making 37's work, just to have the LC200 rack rip off the mount .. not that I wheel it extremely hard, but still would be nice to have that piece of mind.

For me the only thing I would need to figure out/have done is on the RCV Axle side, I would need to send off my axles and have them put in the extended alxe shafts, which isn't really an issue, just an extra step in the process.

Still working on drawing up that spindle. It'll gain roughly 1" downtravel and 1" uptravel by rotating the top uniball sideways. So not a ton and could cost an extra 1k after material and weld time so not for everybody.

Just curious, do you plan to weld a diy long travel kit yourself or have someone else do it? Shop or a buddy? Just trying to gauge market interest.

 

[aemravan]

Still working on drawing up that spindle. It'll gain roughly 1" downtravel and 1" uptravel by rotating the top uniball sideways. So not a ton and could cost an extra 1k after material and weld time so not for everybody.

Just curious, do you plan to weld a diy long travel kit yourself or have someone else do it? Shop or a buddy? Just trying to gauge market interest.

I would definitely be looking at welding up as much as I possibly can myself. I feel fairly conformable in my welding abilities (I find the thicker stuff significantly easier to weld than the thinner Sheetmetal) may not be pretty.. but should certainly work. My brother is a lot more capable at welding as well so I definitely would have the ability to weld everything up myself.

I even have a local metal vendor I used to use for work to laser cut flat steel, so even if you didn't want to bother with providing a full weld-it-yourself kit with material and all I would be completely open to sending off the cut files and have them cut it for me. Ultimately whatever would be most cost effective and easier for you.. you're the one putting in all the hard work with the design time which I can certainly appreciate. I feel like there's at least a few guys around that haven't gone the LT route because they can't justify the cost of something like the total chaos kit knowing that we could quite easily weld up our own arms if we just had some time to draw it up (whether thats in SOlidworks or with some good ole cardboard templates in the garage lol).

 

[Inv4drZm]

So I got a few online quotes for the spindle billet. Its not any cheaper to simplify the tie rod arm design and have it welded from 2 pieces so it will be built as one piece marlin-style.
Still waiting on local mfg. quotes.

Ordering qty 1, each side costs ~$1k.
Ordering qty 2, each side costs ~$700.
Ordering qty 3, each side costs ~$600.
Ordering qty 4, each side costs ~$550.
3d printing for fitting brake calipers and rotors, $90

Could order enough machined billets and sheet metal to do 3 LT kits, sell the other 2.... At the very least someone would buy the machined billets for fabricating their own kit.

 

[aemravan]

So I got a few online quotes for the spindle billet. Its not any cheaper to simplify the tie rod arm design and have it welded from 2 pieces so it will be built as one piece marlin-style.
Still waiting on local mfg. quotes.

Ordering qty 1, each side costs ~$1k.
Ordering qty 2, each side costs ~$700.
Ordering qty 3, each side costs ~$600.
Ordering qty 4, each side costs ~$550.
3d printing for fitting brake calipers and rotors, $90

Could order enough machined billets and sheet metal to do 3 LT kits, sell the other 2.... At the very least someone would buy the machined billets for fabricating their own kit.

That's honestly not that bad considering that these are billet spindles... at $1000-1200 bucks I would say it is more than reasonable. If it makes it cheaper for you to have multiple sets of the laser cut sheetmetal cut fo the uppers and lowers I'd be all over getting that as a "weld it yourself kit" Also wouldn't mind paying just for the cut files and finding a local vendor to cut it before I weld it all up.

I'd have to price out the extended axle shafts through RCV, my guess is that it would run me another $1000 or so to get longer shafts. All in all, super excited about the possibility of running something like this man.

 

[rdruss]

Instead of a uni-ball on top of spindle what about something like a Super Pro bushing/sleeve/bolt like used on LCA? Just wondering.

 

[y=mx+b]

Instead of a uni-ball on top of spindle what about something like a Super Pro bushing/sleeve/bolt like used on LCA? Just wondering.

need to be able to turn. Bushing would only have up and down capability

 

[rdruss]

need to be able to turn. Bushing would only have up and down capability

Ah, yes! Minor oversight!!

 

[y=mx+b]

Ah, yes! Minor oversight!!

to be fair, turning is really over rated

edit: oopsie clicked the thanks button. free internet points hahaha

 

[aemravan]

^^ I second that.. highly overrated indeed


on a serious note.. any idea on what sort of timeframe we're talking about here to actually have physical parts ready?? Only reason I am asking is because if this is very close to reality I don't want to go and blow my money on something even less necessary for my build

 

[Inv4drZm]

^^ I second that.. highly overrated indeed


on a serious note.. any idea on what sort of timeframe we're talking about here to actually have physical parts ready?? Only reason I am asking is because if this is very close to reality I don't want to go and blow my money on something even less necessary for my build

Mount the bushing the other way, so at least you can steer just no suspension movement. :biggrin1:

Lead time for 3d printed spindle 'block' mockup, 1 week
Machining and lasering metal for arms and spindle, at least 1 mth

So maybe 2 months once I get quotes and the design where I like it. Still getting 3-4deg. of bumpsteer (toe-in) at the extents of travel due to the already wide LC200 rack coupled with the heim adapters making it wider. Can be reduced by raising the rack and arm on the spindle, but need to space the motor up and it will never be completely eliminated unless I reduce travel. Road racers shoot for basically zero bumpsteer compared to this but they only have like 6" of wheel travel. Not sure what stock is or what is acceptable for offroading. Extending the tie rod forward on the vehicle effectively lengthens it but screws up ackerman and tire wear.

 

[aemravan]

Mount the bushing the other way, so at least you can steer just no suspension movement. :biggrin1:

Lead time for 3d printed spindle 'block' mockup, 1 week
Machining and lasering metal for arms and spindle, at least 1 mth

So maybe 2 months once I get quotes and the design where I like it. Still getting 3-4deg. of bumpsteer (toe-in) at the extents of travel due to the already wide LC200 rack coupled with the heim adapters making it wider. Can be reduced by raising the rack and arm on the spindle, but need to space the motor up and it will never be completely eliminated unless I reduce travel. Road racers shoot for basically zero bumpsteer compared to this but they only have like 6" of wheel travel. Not sure what stock is or what is acceptable for offroading. Extending the tie rod forward on the vehicle effectively lengthens it but screws up ackerman and tire wear.

Completely understand and inline with what I would expect lead time to do.

with regards to bump steer.. I imagine this is at the extreme suspension travel condition which wouldn't be highly noticeable in street driving? Certainly don't base any design decisions on me, but I'm super easy, and don't plan on racing this and expecting 0 bumpsteer. I'm looking to gain overall articulation for moderate, low-speed rock crawling, in which case bumpsteer is a none issue.. The rear axle steer I'm getting now at full articulation is already worse than that upfront :trophy:

I'm already looking to raise the motor a bit (1/4") to better clear the LC200 rack, not sure how much more UP it has left and how much more up we're talking about.. but I would lean towards "good enough" at 3-4 degrees (absolutely 0 experience here with this so take that for what it's worth )

Like I said, I'd be first in line to go with this once available so just let me know, eagerly awaiting the completion

 

[Inv4drZm]

Completely understand and inline with what I would expect lead time to do.

with regards to bump steer.. I imagine this is at the extreme suspension travel condition which wouldn't be highly noticeable in street driving? Certainly don't base any design decisions on me, but I'm super easy, and don't plan on racing this and expecting 0 bumpsteer. I'm looking to gain overall articulation for moderate, low-speed rock crawling, in which case bumpsteer is a none issue.. The rear axle steer I'm getting now at full articulation is already worse than that upfront :trophy:

I'm already looking to raise the motor a bit (1/4") to better clear the LC200 rack, not sure how much more UP it has left and how much more up we're talking about.. but I would lean towards "good enough" at 3-4 degrees (absolutely 0 experience here with this so take that for what it's worth )

Like I said, I'd be first in line to go with this once available so just let me know, eagerly awaiting the completion

I did a quick test the other day and it doesn't appear a-arm length effects bumpsteer caused by the wider lc200 rack. Its pretty much the same amount of bumpsteer at least between +3.5" and +4.5" arms, and I might potentially do +4.5" for my personal prototype kit though its just a couple clicks to convert it back to +3.5" for production purposes.

Rough guesstimation says the higher the steering rack, the less bumpsteer you will have, of course the spindle arm needs raised appropriately for it to help. Tie rods need to be inline with the a arms. The less travel you have, the less bumpsteer as well, so what is stock travel, 9"? I would guess stock length arms with the LC200 rack would experience less bumpsteer than LT arms.

Bumpsteer from the LC200 rack comes into play mainly at the last 3" of travel before full bump or droop, and really there is no way around it as you can't move the spindle arm back any to lengthen the tie rod, its right up against the brake rotor as it is. So yeah it won't effect daily driving unless you have a ton of body roll. If you have a fancy sway bar like yours it should be fine on the street.

 

[aemravan]

I did a quick test the other day and it doesn't appear a-arm length effects bumpsteer caused by the wider lc200 rack. Its pretty much the same amount of bumpsteer at least between +3.5" and +4.5" arms, and I might potentially do +4.5" for my personal prototype kit though its just a couple clicks to convert it back to +3.5" for production purposes.

Rough guesstimation says the higher the steering rack, the less bumpsteer you will have, of course the spindle arm needs raised appropriately for it to help. Tie rods need to be inline with the a arms. The less travel you have, the less bumpsteer as well, so what is stock travel, 9"? I would guess stock length arms with the LC200 rack would experience less bumpsteer than LT arms.

Bumpsteer from the LC200 rack comes into play mainly at the last 3" of travel before full bump or droop, and really there is no way around it as you can't move the spindle arm back any to lengthen the tie rod, its right up against the brake rotor as it is. So yeah it won't effect daily driving unless you have a ton of body roll. If you have a fancy sway bar like yours it should be fine on the street.

+4.5?? Man , talk about wide ! Haha. I guess that not all that much different once you’re at 3.5. For the trail I do here on east coast I definitely hate the idea of being any wider than I already am, but would 100% sacrifice the extra travel a 3.5 would get me.

And yes, I am still amazed and how much the rear sway bar itself helped with on road body roll reduction. 100% recommend to anyone. I gave up hope on ever running a front sway bar again so having an option for the rear was definitely a huge help.

With regards to bump steer, I’m already prepared for it just from the lc200 rack and not one bit concerned about it at either extreme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Inv4drZm]

+4.5?? Man , talk about wide ! Haha. I guess that not all that much different once you’re at 3.5. For the trail I do here on east coast I definitely hate the idea of being any wider than I already am, but would 100% sacrifice the extra travel a 3.5 would get me.

And yes, I am still amazed and how much the rear sway bar itself helped with on road body roll reduction. 100% recommend to anyone. I gave up hope on ever running a front sway bar again so having an option for the rear was definitely a huge help.

With regards to bump steer, I’m already prepared for it just from the lc200 rack and not one bit concerned about it at either extreme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I figure
-It doesn't cost me any more.
-I'm already going to the trouble of fabricating a spindle for more travel why not maximize it.
-I can live with another 2" wider wheelbase. My +2" and brother's +3.5" wasn't a problem on the Rubicon or anywhere else. The only issue being the narrow rock obstacle on Elephant Hill moab.

For bumpsteer I don't think it'll be a problem for crawlers, mainly thinking about the desert guys.

 

[aemravan]

While browsing some LC200 stuff last night I came back across the clevis that is available for these.. pricey, because the guy has to buy a tacoma clevis, bore out the hole, and machine his own bolt since nobody makes the size bolt for LC200, at the $350 all said and done before buying the hiem joints and the tubing to go in between.

Just curious, is this the route you're planning on going with the new double-shear steering pick-up on the spindle? All in all, in the grand scheme of things, another 450 bucks to really beef up the rack by replacing the inner and outer tierods with a more solid tube/heim combo doesn't sound all that terrible, but I'm wondering if there is an option to just get rid of the outer tie rod, get some tubing to weld a hiem joint on one side and thread the other end to work with the inner tie rod. Physically shouldn't be an issue, just havent through too hard about what, if anything, it would do to the geometry since the factory tie rod kicks back a bit and isn't exactly straight (probably mainly for clearance at full lock?)

 

[Inv4drZm]

While browsing some LC200 stuff last night I came back across the clevis that is available for these.. pricey, because the guy has to buy a tacoma clevis, bore out the hole, and machine his own bolt since nobody makes the size bolt for LC200, at the $350 all said and done before buying the hiem joints and the tubing to go in between.

Just curious, is this the route you're planning on going with the new double-shear steering pick-up on the spindle? All in all, in the grand scheme of things, another 450 bucks to really beef up the rack by replacing the inner and outer tierods with a more solid tube/heim combo doesn't sound all that terrible, but I'm wondering if there is an option to just get rid of the outer tie rod, get some tubing to weld a hiem joint on one side and thread the other end to work with the inner tie rod. Physically shouldn't be an issue, just havent through too hard about what, if anything, it would do to the geometry since the factory tie rod kicks back a bit and isn't exactly straight (probably mainly for clearance at full lock?)

Yeah that's what I plan on doing, and already have the clevis adapters. I haven't seen this measurement before in my research, but the clevis adapters add another 1/2" each side to the steering rack, which will increase bumpsteer. But it does make it stronger and perhaps more importantly, doesn't limit your travel.

Anything is possible you should be able to replace just the outer tie rod with a heim if you wanted, unless clearance is an issue. Just need a threaded adapter. And the only way to change the steering geometry is by moving the pivoting points. By adding a bent arm nothing is changing with how the geometry works just the clearance between the tie rod and shock.