ISR vs Elbow Removal vs Deckplate mod?

[vanion2]

Just so everyone's clear, that 5-8Hp on a SUPERCHARGED 4Runner

Read it again. This was BEFORE he added the S/C.

I dyno tested this modification on my 1999 3.4L V6 Toyota Tacoma 5 speed 4x4 with Flow master 40 muffler.

And look carefully at the dyno graph. Those are definitely not TRD S/C outputs one would expect to see on a dyno.

You are more than welcome to your opinion on how to mod (or not) your 4Runner but please make sure your facts are straight so as not to confuse things for others who are also allowed to make up their own mind on the subject. Sorry, but it is the engineer in me that doesn't like people distorting data (accidentally I think in your case). I guess that's why I could never be a politician. Lol.

 

[jeremyc74]

Read it again. This was BEFORE he added the S/C.

And look carefully at the dyno graph. Those are definitely not TRD S/C outputs one would expect to see on a dyno.

You are more than welcome to your opinion on how to mod (or not) your 4Runner but please make sure your facts are straight so as not to confuse things for others who are also allowed to make up their own mind on the subject. Sorry, but it is the engineer in me that doesn't like people distorting data (accidentally I think in your case). I guess that's why I could never be a politician. Lol.

Edit: Found the link.

You're still within the error range of the dyno or weather variances. 5-8HP is nothing, and you're certainly not going to feel it. Anyone who thinks they are is suffering from the placebo effect.

And just for the record, I'm an engineer myself, and I work in the auto industry. The notion that the designers are just leaving free HP on the table is absolutely comical to me. Why would they do that? You wouldn't believe the lengths we go to to hit power and fuel economy targets. MILLIONS of dollars are spent for a MPG or a few extra HP. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Toyota would undersize a critical component like the intake tract and lose power when it would cost basically nothing to make it as large as it needs to be. We don't give up power or fuel economy for any reason other than reliability and a restrictive intake isn't going to do anything to increase that.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Check the links in my sig, deck plate mod is proven to work on both N/A and forced induction 4Runners. I did it on mine a month after getting it and never looked back. Improved mid-range power.

 

[cashmoney]

Dynoing an intake is useless. Nothing but stagnant hot air or a fan blowing hot air. Not anywhere near as effective as running 50+mph and wide open throttle. That's where the extra flow would be beneficial. And I agree, 5-8hp on a dyno is a normal fluctuation but you can't dispute the claims of people having less down shifts on hills after doing these modifications. I'm personally going to do all 3 of these because I like it.

 

[JayRolla]

I agree, dynoing anything with that low of power change is not worth it. No ram air affect, no real world temps and NTM multiple dynos of the same car can fluctuate 5-10hp easily.

But it sounds cool and thats all that madders. For what its worth I have a cheap ram air intake. Im going to cut it down to just a small tube like the airraid but with the emission boxs removed since my cheap intake has the vacuum line tubes. Then going to add the stock air box, do the deck plate with a dry high flow filter.

Im not doing it for power, but for the sound and cleaner looking engine bay. And when wheeling the intake sound makes it actually more fun. The stock intake/exhaust is so quiet you cant tell where your motor is at. I like to beable to hear where the motor is at instead of not even knowing its running.

 

[vanion2]

Edit: Found the link.

You're still within the error range of the dyno or weather variances. 5-8HP is nothing, and you're certainly not going to feel it. Anyone who thinks they are is suffering from the placebo effect.

And just for the record, I'm an engineer myself, and I work in the auto industry. The notion that the designers are just leaving free HP on the table is absolutely comical to me. Why would they do that? You wouldn't believe the lengths we go to to hit power and fuel economy targets. MILLIONS of dollars are spent for a MPG or a few extra HP. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Toyota would undersize a critical component like the intake tract and lose power when it would cost basically nothing to make it as large as it needs to be. We don't give up power or fuel economy for any reason other than reliability and a restrictive intake isn't going to do anything to increase that.

I agree 8 hp is not going to be felt in the butt dyno (or 5 for that matter). I am also not telling anyone to do it. I was just pointing out that you mistated the conditions in which the data was collected.

As for automotive industry R&D trying to meet EPA requirements while maximizing power I think you forgot to include that the industry also tries to design in comfort for the customer. Not everyone wants a noisy intake. Nor does the manufacturer want to allow increased chances of sucking up debris into the engine. But they also have to build the component lay out around the engine which doesn't always lead to optimal placement of attached components.

I know. You are already aware of all of this because you are an automotive engineer. So in comes the after market companies looking to make a buck because there are people out there who want to feel they are getting every extra pony out of their well designed engines.

Then some crafty person thinks why spend X amount of money on something I can do by modifying this or that? Thus these simple mods are born and some one goes out and runs a dyno with the mods proving some gains are achieved all the while some engineer shoots down this experiment with an expert opinion. Lol

I guess what I am saying is you made your point. Bluntly. But for those out there willing to spend $20 to do the mod I don't think you are going to change their mind.

And as for the margin of error of any dyno, that's just an assumption since you weren't there, didn't see how many baseline and modified pulls were done. You don't know what type of dyno was used or the ambient conditions. And if you look more at his sight you will see he is very meticulous in his videos and very detailed in his data collection on every thing he has done to his 4runner. In short, I would be willing to believe his data. Even if it is within the margin of error. After all, I did the same thing when testing my custom built header and exhaust for my MR2.

 

[jeremyc74]

And as for the margin of error of any dyno, that's just an assumption since you weren't there, didn't see how many baseline and modified pulls were done. You don't know what type of dyno was used or the ambient conditions. And if you look more at his sight you will see he is very meticulous in his videos and very detailed in his data collection on every thing he has done to his 4runner. In short, I would be willing to believe his data. Even if it is within the margin of error. After all, I did the same thing when testing my custom built header and exhaust for my MR2.

I'm not sure how you can call it meticulous when he doesn't say how much time was done between runs, or mention basic variables like altitude or temperature. The other glaring inconsistency to me is that he also mentions that with the aftermarket air filters in place, there was basically no gain by opening the box. If the box is a restriction for the stock filter, it would be a restriction for the aftermarket filters as well.

The gains being talked about here are basically within the "noise" range of the data. I'd suspect it's more to do with the operating state of the ECU at the time of test than actual gains from the intake modifications.

Now, if you want to modify the intake on your truck, by all means have at it. As some of the others have mentioned they like the sound of it, and that's a perfectly acceptable reason to do it. I just don't like hearing about "proven dyno gains" when the evidence doesn't stack up. I would say there are very debatable dyno tests that point to the possibility of a small gain.

 

[c0mmon]

Actually these intake mods are pretty common, and have been proven.

On my Audi S4 cutting holes in the bottom of the airbox is actually very normal and actually proves better gains than the $300 intake systems for the car.

I fully believe removing this restrictive "resonator" would also provide gains as people have accounted for and some even dyno proven gains. The computer can recalculate it-self based on the new amount of airflow the engine is receiving.

I used to have tons of VW's, I always "Swiss Cheesed" them

 

[c0mmon]

There is a site which did dyno testing (on a tacoma but 3.4) and found them to add hp.

The elbow helps to catch oil, I wouldn't remove that personally.

I did the deckplate mod-8 dollars off ebay and a few screws/rtv-works great, and you can always close it if you dont like it. I would start there 100%

 

[PandaRescue89]

I had a corolla with the 2zzfe motor. My experience with intakes have not been that great. I would clock how long it would take to accelerate from 15mph to redline in second or third (I forget which gear) 3 times for each intake. Stock had the fastest times.

I tested:
stock
modified stock (removing resonators etc)
fleabay intake
injen intake

to try to keep the test as control as possible. every time an intake was swapped over, the ecu was reset, the same strip of road was used, and tried the best of matching weather.

I'm gonna keep stock intake on my 2.7. if anything make it more restrictive with a snorkel!!!

 

[A.Wilson013]

I used to have tons of VW's, I always "Swiss Cheesed" them

Ha, thanks for that. I remember doing that.

 

[Skinfaxi]

Edit: Found the link.



You're still within the error range of the dyno or weather variances. 5-8HP is nothing, and you're certainly not going to feel it. Anyone who thinks they are is suffering from the placebo effect.



And just for the record, I'm an engineer myself, and I work in the auto industry. The notion that the designers are just leaving free HP on the table is absolutely comical to me. Why would they do that? You wouldn't believe the lengths we go to to hit power and fuel economy targets. MILLIONS of dollars are spent for a MPG or a few extra HP. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that Toyota would undersize a critical component like the intake tract and lose power when it would cost basically nothing to make it as large as it needs to be. We don't give up power or fuel economy for any reason other than reliability and a restrictive intake isn't going to do anything to increase that.

What exactly do you do in the auto industry? As an engineer you should know better. There is always easy power left on the table. More power = worse emissions. You can sell a car that makes less power. You can't sell a car that fails emissions standards. Additionally, and in the case of this thread's topic, power is always sacrificed for NVH. Mass dampers, resonators, every car has them. Resonators also do wonders for trapping hydrocarbons to pass Federal & California EVAP standards.

And just for the record, I'm an automotive engineer directly responsible for power and emissions of high-output OEM vehicles.

 

[JeepKiller]

What exactly do you do in the auto industry? As an engineer you should know better. There is always easy power left on the table. More power = worse emissions. You can sell a car that makes less power. You can't sell a car that fails emissions standards. Additionally, and in the case of this thread's topic, power is always sacrificed for NVH. Mass dampers, resonators, every car has them. Resonators also do wonders for trapping hydrocarbons to pass Federal & California EVAP standards.

And just for the record, I'm an automotive engineer directly responsible for power and emissions of high-output OEM vehicles.

You're exactly right. The new either Camaros or Mustangs come with the dual tail pipes plugged so that its within the decibel rating and emissions specs, but the owner can unplug them for a classic muscle car roar haha. At least from my understanding.

 

[JeepKiller]

But I say do all of the above, it's your truck do what you want

 

[jeremyc74]

What exactly do you do in the auto industry? As an engineer you should know better. There is always easy power left on the table. More power = worse emissions. You can sell a car that makes less power. You can't sell a car that fails emissions standards. Additionally, and in the case of this thread's topic, power is always sacrificed for NVH. Mass dampers, resonators, every car has them. Resonators also do wonders for trapping hydrocarbons to pass Federal & California EVAP standards.

And just for the record, I'm an automotive engineer directly responsible for power and emissions of high-output OEM vehicles.

Powertrain production. And BS there's "easy power" left on the table. Meeting emissions standards isn't' "easy power", it's a requirement, and you know damn well that's not what I meant. You don't undersized a plastic pipe that would give you 8Hp for free, and if you are your ass needs to be fired.

On one of the recent lines I worked on for Ford we spent over $300k in production line modifications to the transmission assembly to gain .1MPG. Toyota isn't going to undersized an intake tube or filter and create a restriction losing 8HP for no good reason.

 

[vanion2]

I was looking at the filter box on the 4runner and it already has about a 2 inch snorkel that looks like it goes into the passenger wheel well so doing the deck late mod will have no negative effect as far as I can tell. The front of the box faces the passenger headlight so debris intake will be minimized by that and the condenser and radiator as well.

If you are the paranoid type you could put a screen mesh on the deck plate to further decrease your chances of debris.

The draw back is you will be feeding hot air compared to the snorkel's cooler air.

 

[Skinfaxi]

Powertrain production. And BS there's "easy power" left on the table. Meeting emissions standards isn't' "easy power", it's a requirement, and you know damn well that's not what I meant. You don't undersized a plastic pipe that would give you 8Hp for free, and if you are your ass needs to be fired.



On one of the recent lines I worked on for Ford we spent over $300k in production line modifications to the transmission assembly to gain .1MPG. Toyota isn't going to undersized an intake tube or filter and create a restriction losing 8HP for no good reason.

The pipe isn't undersized, it's not perfectly efficient, which is the intent. For NVH.

I said, specifically in the case of this thread, the resonator is there for NVH. They will absolutely give up 8hp so the customer doesn't hear loud induction. I sit in countless meetings where that exact topic is discussed. I have 100gb+ of personally recorded data from thousands of emissions tests to support it.

I run chassis and engine dynos and map for power and fuel economy. Then I get on the road and calibrate drivability. Then I run countless emissions tests. Then I talk directly to our representatives at the EPA and CARB to discuss the results. This is literally my career.

 

[jeremyc74]

The pipe isn't undersized, it's not perfectly efficient, which is the intent. For NVH.

I said, specifically in the case of this thread, the resonator is there for NVH. They will absolutely give up 8hp so the customer doesn't hear loud induction. I sit in countless meetings where that exact topic is discussed. I have 100gb+ of personally recorded data from thousands of emissions tests to support it.

I run chassis and engine dynos and map for power and fuel economy. Then I get on the road and calibrate drivability. Then I run countless emissions tests. Then I talk directly to our representatives at the EPA and CARB to discuss the results. This is literally my career.

First of all, the notion that NVH is was the primary design criteria for the intake on our 4Runners is absolutely absurd. This isn't a luxury car and 15 years ago trucks weren't expected to act like one.

Second, the resonator isn't the modification being discussed here. It's cutting a hole in the airbox, which hasn't been proven to do anything for power. I'd be willing to bet that if you run the numbers on the flow through the intake horn in the fender you'll find that there's absolutely no gains to be had there until you're well above the power levels we're talking about.

 

[JayRolla]

First of all, the notion that NVH is was the primary design criteria for the intake on our 4Runners is absolutely absurd. This isn't a luxury car and 15 years ago trucks weren't expected to act like one.

Second, the resonator isn't the modification being discussed here. It's cutting a hole in the airbox, which hasn't been proven to do anything for power. I'd be willing to bet that if you run the numbers on the flow through the intake horn in the fender you'll find that there's absolutely no gains to be had there until you're well above the power levels we're talking about.

Jeremy dont talk this stuff in this forum. I learned a long time ago its a never ending battle. Im a huge DSM guy and we all know intakes do nothing. Its these type of forums where they will argue an intake silencer removal as a power gain.

IMO if it aint a turbo, nitrous, SC, cams, high compression pistons, it dont do much. Once those are added or upgraded, everything else just compliments them.

 

[jeremyc74]

Jeremy dont talk this stuff in this forum. I learned a long time ago its a never ending battle. Im a huge DSM guy and we all know intakes do nothing. Its these type of forums where they will argue an intake silencer removal as a power gain.

IMO if it aint a turbo, nitrous, SC, cams, high compression pistons, it dont do much. Once those are added or upgraded, everything else just compliments them.

It's like the hood spaces for the Civic guys. :flame::rofl: