Jeep Grand Cherokee (horror stories!)

[Thai]

Here are some link for your viewing:

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/Peop...eb-reviews.html

Here is an excerpt: (in case you need info right away)

"In case you haven't heard. Chryslers new Quadra Drive has a few annoying bugs that they haven't worked out yet. I have lots of names and letters from other owners that are experiencing the exact same problems as my car. There has also been some buybacks by Chrysler from owners who just couldn't get their cars fixed, and didn't want to put up with the problems anymore Yet Chrysler is still selling them with the bugs to new unsuspecting owners every day.

It seems that the two major problems in every Quadra Drive are a problem with a progressive coupling in the transfer case that makes the front wheels shudder rather violently when turning the wheels half way or more. When parking, making a U turn or just backing out of a parking space at a parking lot. The front wheels try to lock up like they are grabbing for traction. It's almost like a part time four wheel drive system turning on dry pavement. The dealers say it's a progressive coupling in the transfer case that should be allowing the wheels to roll freely but isn't. Their answer so far is to replace the complete transfer case. Which after a few hundred miles does the same thing as the old one did. This could turn out to be a safety item, which could cause an accident.

The second item which isn't related to safety but an extremely annoying problem that shouldn't be happening on a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited that cost close to 40 thousand dollars. Chrysler built and advertised the Limited as a luxury off road vehicle. To that end they put many things in the limited that are meant to give you the feeling of a luxury car. Leather heated seats, automatic temperature control and other things that bump up the price an additional 8 thousand dollars over the Laredo model. Which works until you drive the car over 40 MPH. That's when the whine of the gears starts and the grinding of the bearings. The grinding is more of a feeling rather then a noise until you get up to 70 m.p.h. It's sort of like driving on rumble strips you find on the side of the road. After 70 m.p.h. it tends to get a lot louder. Then along with this is a loud annoying gear noise, which sounds like it's coming from the rear axle. The gear noise is loud enough on it's own to overpower the radio when set at a reasonable level.

So far Chrysler is saying the gear noise is normal for the Quadra Drive but I have heard trash trucks and tractor trailers that are quieter then this car. Their response so far is to replace both axles and the transfer case, which does not solve the problem. You just get a new drive train that does the same thing. There are people that had this done three times and or including rebuilding of the parts at the dealer, and the problems still exist.

My problem is similar except that I only have had things replaced one and a half times. The half being that the new transfer case they put in my car had a stress crack which was blowing fluid out all over the place. Interestingly the dealer never checked for leaks after the work was done. I got to drive it home and see all the transfer case fluid leaking onto my driveway. In that trip home and back to the dealer I did have a chance to notice that with all the repairs, the same old problems were still there. Now I am driving a used Mazda Protege loaner while I wait another week for a new transfer case. Even though I am still paying for a 38 thousand plus car."

 

[Thai]

Here are two videos of the JGC's QuadraDrive in action (or rather no action)!

http://jay.franklins.net/bin/4Low-01.mpg
http://jay.franklins.net/bin/4Low-02.mpg

 

[Thai]

Hey all,

This is a post from Edmunds by an owner (who actually defended Jeep):

"This noise can be described as a whine, howl or growling and it will fluctuate when getting on or off the gas. This is due primarily to DC putting pressure on the axle manufacturer (Dana) to cut costs. The parts aren't held to as tight of a tolerance as they normally would be. It's also my understanding (from an article I read on the subject) that Dana reduced some of the machining operations during the manufacturing process and they started using cheaper materials wherever they could. An example of this would be changing the differential housing from cast iron to aluminum... which obviously allows more noise to be transmitted.

Another issue associated with the axles are the durability of the differential pinion (or carrier) bearings. If tight manufacturing tolerances aren't held, bearings can wear prematurely and cause these kinds of noises.

I haven't heard anything definitive on whether there have been actual part or differential failures, or whether the replacement of these parts is being done in an effort to quiet the axles simply because of customer complaints.

I can't tell you whether to worry about this or not. The noise is subject to personal opinion. I've had 4 JGC's and every one of them have been noisy in that regard. Even my 02, although it's much quieter than any other JGC I've had. I'm used to it, so it doesn't bother me as much as it might bother someone else. I've had 4x4's that were much noisier than the JGC. I've never had any breakdowns or part failures with any of my JGC's because of this noise. So personally, I don't consider this to be a big deal."

Interesting how DC is forcing their supplier to cheapen the materials!

 

[Thai]

Here is a thread on a failed Grand Cherokee Overland's auto tranny:

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=315924

 

[Thai]

Here is information on the 2003 Jeep GC:

As the innovator of the compact sport-utility segment, Jeep

 

[Thai]

Link:

QuadraDriver sucks!
QuadraDriver Failure Videos!

Hmmm...off-roader??

By design, the Vari-lok axles will not allow full engine torque to be applied to a single wheel. The FSM (2001 version) says:

The tuning of the front and rear axle orifices and valves inside the gerotor pump is unique and each system includes a torque limiting pressure relief valve to protect the clutch pack, which also facilitates vehicle control under extreme side-to-side traction variations.

 

[Thai]

More disappointment from Jeep GC QuadraDrive owners:

Off pavement and in 4LO ( transfer case output locked front & rear) the Vari-Lov axles will slip, and on steep hillclimbs the gerotor pumps may not get the oil they need to keep things friction-locked.

One possible theory for the unpredictable nature of it is that while in an offcamber situation, (axle at more than say, 20* off parallel) the fluids may not always be where they need to be for the coupler to function properly, particularly if you are in that situation for a few minutes while picking your next line) thus causing some unpredictable behavior depending on the fluid pressure inside the coupler itself.

My QD works pretty well in most cases. In the case of a tire completely without traction (in the air, for example), QD tends to fail quite miserably. I find it interesting that QD functions quite a bit better in when the transfer case is NOT in low range.

"A buddy of mine just called from the trail (Tuttle Creek ORV, 2.5 hours from here) and said that an 02 WJ Overland had the fan seize for some unknown reason and the engine overheated. They're going to have to tow it back. Before towing it 180 miles or so, they were going to remove the rear driveshaft (only the rear as they will be towing with the front wheels in a dolly)."

Mike, I have spun out before on the icy roads when applying a little too much gas when turning slightly, so the delay between sending torque to the front axle is sometimes not quick enough. Also, the gerotors are appearing in many other applications these days, in cars and SUVs. It is considered to be a low cost solution.

The QD does NOT know what you are doing. If it detects slippage and decides to lock up while you are powering around an icy corner, it doesn't know that that is a dumb thing to do. I have been there, and have experienced the "oversteer from hell" that happens when your rear end locks up. This is exactly what I did NOT like about QD, the fact that sometimes is works when you don't want it to, and sometimes it doesn't work when you do want it to.




These are from different owners (each paragraph from different owners).

 

[Thai]

Yet another owner:

I was off road a few weeks ago and hung up the Jeep in some deep mud where three of the wheels where touching nothing but a slurry of muck in the old tire ruts, and one wheel, the passanger front, was firmly planted on the ground. (Trust me, I had no option but to ride in the ruts on this day) Granted, my Jeep was hung up on the undercarriage and I was going absolutely no where until I dug that out or winched me off. However, as far as I know, the Quadra drive is suppose to deliver all the power to the wheel that HAS the traction and the other wheels should not be turning.

Instead I could put the vehicle in gear and give it some gas and all of the other three (free floating) wheels spun, and the one with the traction did not even attempt to.

 

[Thai]

This is a good one:

In my first Winter (98/99) with the WJ when I lived in Minnesota, I went to my BRAND NEW QuadraDrive equipped WJ, turned it on, flipped on the heated seat, opened the garage door, and put it in reverse. That night, we had an actual 19 inches of wet heavy snow, and even more than that had drifted up against my garage door. All I had to do was get through about 5-6' of an area in which the snow was much deeper than 20 inches. This is doable, if the advertising is remotely true. You see, the front two wheels are on the dry concrete floor, and could easily push the WJ through the heavy snow, and then back down the driveway where gravity would help me down the hill. And what happened? Absolutely nothing, as soon as my rear end was deep in the snow, my rear bumper pushing against the drifts, I was STUCK. I lightly touched the gas for a few seconds, nothing. Rolled down the window, swearing to myself. Hit the gas again, and looked at the front wheel. NO POWER. It was not budging. I was not on the trail, I was merely trying to get out of my garage and go to work.

I took my WJ to the dealership, and they did their tests. They proclaimed it to be working within designed parameters.

Let me tell you, whatever you say, the advertising is a blatant lie. The VAST majority of people will never find out, because the vast majority of people don't need it. Even those who boast about a little snow or mud, or light offroading. But if you push it to the point where you REALLY need it to perform the way you want it to, it fails.

By the way, I did get out of the garage that day, but only after switching to 4Lo and saying to hell with the gerotors.

Another story for you. This was the same spring of that year when I took a trip up to Northern Minnesota. I went down a logging road, that had a good foot of old snow on it, and it was fine. I was thinking to myself, wow, this quadradrive system is really something. And then what happened? Spin out into a ditch, because I used a little too much power on a curve. Unfortunately, the ditch was drifted over, so I was up to the frame rails in old dense snow, in the middle of nowhere (off the gunflint trail to those who know far northern minnesota). Well, I tried going forward, reverse, etc, and observed all 4 wheels spinning. SWEET! Then two of the wheels found some traction on the gravel road underneath, on one side.... and stop spinning!! ACK!!! QUADRADRIVE STRIKES AGAIN!!! It works when you don't really need it to work, in low torque situations. When you REALLY need it to get you unstuck, it doesn't do diddly squat. To end a long sad story, my girlfriend and I hiked out of the wilderness far enough to flag down a moose-hunter in an old fullsize ford pickup, and the three of us battled for a good few hours and finally managed to get me out of there. What a nice guy he was.

Want some more stories? Every single situation in which I got stuck and was twisted up on the trail, the other trail riders would tell me I was spinning one wheel on each axle. But other times in which I didn't need much torque to get moving (like very icy roads, some muddy trails, etc), then it wowed everyone around us. It should not be touted as a safety feature by the marketers, because that is BS. In fact, believing the lies is more likely to get you into trouble than anything else...

 

[ricnkc]

re

and people wonder why i drive a TOYOTA

 

[darktiger]

From another dissatisfied Jeep Owner.

I have a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 4X4 with all the bells and whistles. Now it only has 47000 miles on it. I think that is
pretty good. But in the last 2 1/2 years I have had nothing but problems. Here is a list. Brakes, 3 Fuel Pumps, 2 Window modulater/motors, 2 Seat replacements, Ignition/Steering
cylinder replacement(that extended warranty does not cover), and a starter. To me all this is inexcusable for a 37,000 vehicle. Now I am looking for a new vehicle before my extended warrenty runs out. I wish the quality/reliablity of the vehicle was a lot better. Until then I will not buy another Jeep/Chrysler product. I am looking at a 4X4 v8 Sports 4runner.

 

[ricnkc]

darktiger

sorry to hear about all the problems your haveing, ive got a 99 4runner with 120,000 miles on it,, and have had NO PROBLEMS at all, and yes, i do 4 wheel mine, and i dont mean just getting off the street, lol BUT i do feel that anything that is "mass produced" with have one or two everyday that slip by, that are junk, yes there are even some yotas that have problems, i hate to admit it, if you go with toyota, im sure you will be happy for hundreds of thousands of miles..
Ric

 

[Thai]

Here is an indepth thread on the QDII...supposedly, the '05-up Jeep GC has an improved QuadraDrive system (called Electronic Limited-Slip Differential):

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336178&highlight=g500

 

[dcampen]

Here is an indepth thread on the QDII...supposedly, the '05-up Jeep GC has an improved QuadraDrive system (called Electronic Limited-Slip Differential):

Poor guys should have bought a 4Runner (or a G500). Other than the new "Electronic LSD" appelation I can't tell how the '05 QuadraDrive is any different from earlier versions.

 

[05V8SPRT]

ADVISE:

Keep track of how many days in the shop AND how many problems. Keep ALL your receipts and find out WHAT EXACTLY qualifies a car as a lemon in your state.

I got Ford to buy back my Ford Expedition (which had 3 rear differentials and MANY other problems). I qualified as a lemon and fought Ford through there own Dispute Settlement Board. I won... Got a FULL refund.

Virginia Lemon Law:

1. One repair attempt to fix a problem that can be life threatening.

2. 30 days or more for warranty work the first 18 months.

3. Attempt to fix the same problem 3 times unsuccessfully. They have one more documented attempt after 3 times.


If you hire a lawyer they typically want a retainer. You will NEVER see that money back if you loose. Once you jump in with money you must FEED THAT LAWYER until the case settles or forfeit the case. Hence, you could get $20K in legal fees before your case is settled AND you might loose. NOT WORTH IT!

Chrysler has there own DSB by law. Start keeping track!

Good luck.

 

[Koz]

I can tell you first hand that the 05 GC is NOT an off-road vehicle. The drive train is capable but the rest of the truck design is only good for on-road use.

Koz

 

[Cybercannon]

So in a 4runner, how much different would this be? I'm looking at getting one and after reading several of Thai's posts I think I'm figuring out toyota's setup. Is this right?: If back wheels and one front wheel were slipping then the Torsen would send roughly 50-53% power up front (or with center dif locked 50% up front). Then the Atrac would try to compensate and send something less than half of that axels power to the wheel with traction, so something less than 25% overall. I'm likely getting the toyota for reliability, but I wonder how different this is from the Jeeps power to one wheel.



Or with the center diff locked and the back wheels spinning, would 100% be put up front, and then that cut to under 50% for one wheel?

Thanks

 

[Thai]

Technically speaking, if you do NOT lock the center diff and BOTH wheels on the rear (or front) axle is slipping, then you may lose power to the opposite axle (front in your example) altogether. The Torsen center diff works great at dividing up the power front and rear unless one side is completely slipping...this is one weakness of the Torsen differential.

Thus, you need to lock the center diff while off-roading to avoid this rare circumstance when one whole axle is completely slipping.

Once you lock the center diff, 100% of power is going to the front and rear axle at the same time. Why? Think of a steel rod. The middle of the steel rod is the center diff that is locked. When you lock the center diff, you tie the front and rear axle together as if they are one, right? So, the middle of the steel rod is the center diff lock. The ends of the steel rod are the front and rear axles. So, if you turn one end of the steel rod, then the other end also turns with the same torque and velocity, right? Therefore, once you lock the center diff, whatever power that comes from the engine is applied 100% to the front AND rear axles at the same time.

The above applies to any SUV that has a lockable center diff.

So, in your example, the 4runner with the center diff locked will be sending somewhere less than 50% of power to the one wheel with traction. How much exactly i do not know. However, in a Hummer H2 brochure, i read that with ONE wheel traction, a H2 can make up a 10% grade with one wheel traction. With all wheels traction, it can go up a much higher grade hill. I think that the limitations here are the power that is lost to heat (from the braking of slipping wheels), how effective the system at pulsing the brake on the slipping wheel(s), and how long the brakes can handle the slippage before overheating. In the new Land Cruiser, Toyota boasts that it's ATRAC system can go 12 minutes of constant pulsation before shutting down to prevent heat damage. I would imagine that the 4runner's brakes is probably a bit less than the Land Cruiser's.

The effectiveness of pulsing of the brake on the slipping wheel varies from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model. For example, my G500's ATRAC system (called 4-ETS) is designed mainly for all-season driving...it's not very aggressive and, thus, is not very effective off-road. On the other hand, Land Rover's ATRAC system (called ETC) is more aggressive and is pretty good off-road. The 4runner's system is probably somewhere in the middle (from my observation). The Nissan Xterra's system is maybe a bit more aggressive than 4runner's. The FJ Cruiser's OPTIONAL ATRAC system is probably the most aggressive system that I have seen and is quite effective off-road.

The new Land Cruiser's Crawl Control system, in theory, is probably the best ATRAC system to date IMHO. Again, in theory, this system comes closest to a locker.

The problem with the Jeep GC's system is that it has a bypass valve...therefore, if there is too much stress on the diff (e.g. one wheel with tracton, opposite wheel slipping), the QD system becomes inoperable to prevent axle breakeage. ATRAC system on the 4runner has no bypass valve...it will continue to work until the brakes overheat.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cybercannon]

Thanks for the info. Maybe you can help me out with a couple more.

1. It looks like the quadra drive system isn't doing it's job. Do you know if the Selec Trac is any better. On that one you can manually select part time (locks center diff). Of course that doesn't improve L/R transfer, but I wonder if it's any better.

2. Have you heard anything about noise issues with Toyota's drive shaft or frozen brakes. Since the system relies on the abs I can imagine locked or jammed calipers could negate it. I ran across a "4runner problems" forum and people were talking about it.

3. What are all the rectangular buttons for on the console and left of the steering column? I recognize Downhill Assist Control and the Center Diff lock, but I've seen others in photos that I don't recognize or know the function.

4. Last one. I'm hearing people say that doing something like accelerating off a gravel road to get in front of traffic the VSC dethrottle can get annoying. From personal experience is it really that big of an issue, or is this over exaggerated? I purposfully and manually let off the gas when that happens anyway, so I'm not sure how much it would bother me.

My wife and I are pretty set on spending a bit more for the 4runner rather than the jeep anyway. We've both had Toyota cars we've pushed well into the 200k mile range and they kept on going.

Thanks

 

[Thai]

1. QDII is better than Select Trac because QDII has lockable center diff PLUS L/R torque management. Now, if you were to add ARB lockers to Select Trac, then yes, it is better than QDII. However, remember, the newer Jeeps GC and Commander uses IFS suspension...thus, i would NOT recommend locker in the front.

2. ABS and brake calipers on 4runner are excellent. 4runner boasts big brakes...probably one of the biggest in it's class. The driveshaft issue ("clunk") is more of an annoyance than actually affecting durability or capability.

3. The only buttons that you need are: DAC and center diff lock.

4. It is just something that you need to adapt to...it's not a big deal IMHO. When i had my '02 4runner, i never had the issue, but that is probably because i don't drive aggressively. I have had my '04 G500 for 3 years now and never had an issue. I hear that if you buy V6 4wd, then put it in 4wd mode and this issue decreases.

I do firmly believe that 4runners are class leading in terms of reliability and durability. I am not too fond of the quality in newer Toyotas...and i think that the 4runner is one of the last well-built Toyotas.

Good luck.