KDSS Long term reliability?

[johnbt]

"I agree with those here who say KDSS rides harsh and pretty much sucks for everything over 12mph"

I disagree, after 20k+ miles I think it rides and drives just fine. I wouldn't own one without KDSS. Of course, I'm 68 - and 6' & 210 - so maybe I'm just old and my butt isn't as sensitive as someone who is younger.

Fwiw, before I bought my 4Runner I drove a 2010 Highlander Limited for 7 years and before that a 2006 Avalon XLS for 3 years.

 

[jonny80stry3]

test drive

I test drove models with and without KDSS before purchasing. The first model I drove was a basic SR5, after driving that I decided a 4Runner was not for me.

6 months later I started getting more serious about purchasing a new vehicle and had the opportunity to drive a model with KDSS.

Night and day difference and bought one.

Granted, I prefer the feeling of a cars suspension over a truck's anyday. KDSS allows me drive more aggressively without the excessive body roll.

Plus I wouldn't want my wife driving one without it. Her normal car is a Mazda 3 and she has a lead foot.

 

[Jetboy]

Yeah man, I hear King is working on an aftermarket KDSS kit for 4runners and FOX is doing KDSS for the new Raptor.

Jeep tried and failed to ever make it function - even after announcing it as a future option for the Grand Cherokee.

Tenneco designed KDSS as a suspension kit for the Wrangler TJ before Toyota bought it. (Tenneco also owns Rancho).

KDSS was very successful in rally car racing.

Loads of F1 cars have used a version of it.

Mitsubishi and Citroen still use it in their offroad race vehicles. Dakar rally cars from both use it.

Audi first licensed some of the tech for use in the RS6. Audi also uses it in the R8 LMP (the actual race car version).

Nissan uses a version of it in the Qx56 / Patrol.

Mclaren uses it in production cars.

But yeah, it sucks. Australians only pay $10,000 for the upgrade. Fools!

 

[wfo9]

There is only one thing you can rely on really. That any discussion on t4r.org 5th gen section turns into a total pile of bias garbage from a very narrow minded point of view. Whenever there is useful exploration and education, the numb skulls come back in and revert it back to garbage.

Anyone who thinks KDSS is total crap or that they would never buy a truck without it are both missing a lot of data and perspective. The truth is somewhere right in the middle and could lean one way or the other depending on your particular use case.

Even at the most basic level.. people don't really understand what is going on. I bet most even think 0 body roll is ideal for performance on the road. Reality is.. it's not. My point is just that reality and perception are two very different things.

I hope some testing can be done and some data can be provided. Maybe start a new thread about the results of leaving it in open mode over an extended period in actual rough terrain. There is much to be learned if the ridiculous bias (It's what I have or don't have) can be taken out of it.

 

[jhguth]

If somene has spent agood amount of time driving both how are they missing data? That should be plenty to form a preference, you dont need to know about suspension design to know which you liked better.

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[johnbt]

"... or that they would never buy a truck without it are both missing a lot of data and perspective."

I may be missing your perspective and the perspective of 100,000 or so other owners, but I'm not missing my perspective and I'm the one who wrote the check for it and I'm the one who has to drive it, so I don't see that you have a valid point. Fine, nothing suits everybody. We knew that.

And like I said, I still wouldn't buy one without it. Not you, not them, I. Sheesh, criticized for spending my own money and accused of missing a lot.

 

[wfo9]

"... or that they would never buy a truck without it are both missing a lot of data and perspective."

I may be missing your perspective and the perspective of 100,000 or so other owners, but I'm not missing my perspective and I'm the one who wrote the check for it and I'm the one who has to drive it, so I don't see that you have a valid point. Fine, nothing suits everybody. We knew that.

And like I said, I still wouldn't buy one without it. Not you, not them, I. Sheesh, criticized for spending my own money and accused of missing a lot.

I see you still don't get it.

It's an opinion/preference based on your particular use case. Those who love and hate it are both 100% correct for themselves.

This is a forum to discuss things. And while opinions are useful to some extent. It just muddies the waters when people are to tying to have a technical discussion about something and how to possibly improve it...

My point was the thread was starting to actually educate and explore, but just like every other thread it was taken back to opinions which just tires most of us out. Those that have the ability to actually innovate just walk away from all the noise.

 

[slprciv]

I test drove models with and without KDSS before purchasing. The first model I drove was a basic SR5, after driving that I decided a 4Runner was not for me.

6 months later I started getting more serious about purchasing a new vehicle and had the opportunity to drive a model with KDSS.

Night and day difference and bought one.

Granted, I prefer the feeling of a cars suspension over a truck's anyday. KDSS allows me drive more aggressively without the excessive body roll.

Plus I wouldn't want my wife driving one without it. Her normal car is a Mazda 3 and she has a lead foot.

My thoughts exactly when I drove my buddy's 2012 SR5... it was boring and had a lot to me! body roll. When I actually got around to seriously buy a 5th gen 4Runner 2 yrs ago. I had to test drive my other buddy's 16' TEP and it was night and day difference! I was sold on the KDSS and everyday since I've own a 18' ORP, the smile gets bigger whenever I go around a curvy road :thumb:

 

[CoolMax]

I test drove models with and without KDSS before purchasing. The first model I drove was a basic SR5, after driving that I decided a 4Runner was not for me.



6 months later I started getting more serious about purchasing a new vehicle and had the opportunity to drive a model with KDSS.



Night and day difference and bought one.



Granted, I prefer the feeling of a cars suspension over a truck's anyday. KDSS allows me drive more aggressively without the excessive body roll.



Plus I wouldn't want my wife driving one without it. Her normal car is a Mazda 3 and she has a lead foot.

I recently picked up a 2014 Corollla S as a DD and while I know it's no track star, I'm surprised that my 4runner with bumpers, lift, & 285s feels better in the curves


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[Turfboy]

My apologies ahead of time if this has been asked before,
but I did search and could not find much.

What kind of long term reliability does KDSS have?

Just did a review of a Lexus website(club lexus) for KDSS problems (KDSS since 2004).

635 KDSS hits:

2 Pin corrosion problems
3 Sticky Solenoids (Cold winter driving)
2 Leaks but were covered by TSB #5501-06
2 Bump/Noise (some confusion with shocks though)

Not sure what it means but I would probably recommend fluid film if Salt was used on the roads.

 

[Hydguy]

My first 2014 was with KDSS. I hated it so I just took the loss to trade into a non-KDSS TE 2014.

I agree with those here who say KDSS rides harsh and pretty much sucks for everything over 12mph (and the "within spec" 3/4" lean....).

Maybe if I was driving a leased KDSS truck I'd do the disconnect thing, but no way for a long term vehicle. There's just too many unknowns about how the suspension will act over time with potentially changing the load bearing parts and wear pieces.

Not to mention the whole emergency maneuvering at highway speed thing.

But yeah, KDSS sucks.

My first 4Runner was a lightly used '15 Trail Premium with KDSS (8k on the odo). I never test drove a 4Runner prior to driving this one the day before I bought it.
a year and a half later, I traded it on a '16 Trail Premium without KDSS.
One thing I noticed immediately was the huge nose dive when stopping. Thought it wasn't a big deal at the time. Then I drove it on a long trip, and found the ride to be much less comfortable than my previous 4Runner. it would bounce more, and it felt like steering was loose.
And it had a bad lean. 1/2" difference measured from the garage floor to the edge of the mirror. After a year, I just couldn't stand the nose diving, and the bouncy ride. And the lean drove me batty.

Traded it in on an '18 TRD ORP with KDSS, and the ride is once again smooth, no excessive bouncing on the road, no nose diving when stopping.
And it's perfectly even side to side.
The lean can occur without KDSS. I didn't notice a lean in my '15 either.
My sample of 3 5th gen 4Runners has shown me that KDSS is an improvement.

As for emergency steering, on my last trip to Indiana, an had reason to swerve quite sharply to avoid debris in the road from an 18 wheeler that blew a tire about a 1/2 mile ahead of me.
I have no doubt that without the KDSS I would have flipped, due to the suspension being softer, allowing for more body roll and pitching.

So no, KDSS doesn't suck.

 

[Koddo]

114K on my 2010 trail with KDSS. No issues yet. I'm also in AZ so any potential issues related to corrosion, cold weather, etc luckily are not applicable.

I have to say I was very scared while installing my RCI rock sliders...gently prying those lines away from the frame is a bit nerve racking.

 

[LandCruiser]

100k on my 2013 in shitty Colorado winters and a lift. Still fine.

 

[MatraBlue]

My first 4Runner was a lightly used '15 Trail Premium with KDSS (8k on the odo). I never test drove a 4Runner prior to driving this one the day before I bought it.
a year and a half later, I traded it on a '16 Trail Premium without KDSS.
One thing I noticed immediately was the huge nose dive when stopping. Thought it wasn't a big deal at the time. Then I drove it on a long trip, and found the ride to be much less comfortable than my previous 4Runner. it would bounce more, and it felt like steering was loose.
And it had a bad lean. 1/2" difference measured from the garage floor to the edge of the mirror. After a year, I just couldn't stand the nose diving, and the bouncy ride. And the lean drove me batty.

Traded it in on an '18 TRD ORP with KDSS, and the ride is once again smooth, no excessive bouncing on the road, no nose diving when stopping.
And it's perfectly even side to side.
The lean can occur without KDSS. I didn't notice a lean in my '15 either.
My sample of 3 5th gen 4Runners has shown me that KDSS is an improvement.

As for emergency steering, on my last trip to Indiana, an had reason to swerve quite sharply to avoid debris in the road from an 18 wheeler that blew a tire about a 1/2 mile ahead of me.
I have no doubt that without the KDSS I would have flipped, due to the suspension being softer, allowing for more body roll and pitching.

So no, KDSS doesn't suck.

I don’t believe kdss has anything to do with nose dive or bouncy ride. Observations such as yours makes me question just what the hell kdss really does do.

 

[alphabeast]

Die Thread Die!!!

 

[alphabeast]

I don’t believe kdss has anything to do with nose dive or bouncy ride. Observations such as yours makes me question just what the hell kdss really does do.

Agreed. I have KDSS and before I changed out the OEM suspension I had the massive nose dive on heavy braking.

 

[epjfsa]

I don’t believe kdss has anything to do with nose dive or bouncy ride. Observations such as yours makes me question just what the hell kdss really does do.

Where's the confusion? It's literally just a swaybar upgrade with a system that maintains articulation and a small level of comfort that would otherwise be lost with a larger swaybar. The larger sway bar is what improves handling but would otherwise limit wheel articulation. KDSS by itself does very little to improve handling on-road. The only purpose of KDSS is to maintain wheel articulation and a small amount of comfort with the larger sway.

People upgrade (upsize) sway bars on cars all the time because it reduces understeer and body roll. Thicker sways will not change nose dive, only body roll (left to right).

 

[DesertFish]

Since people are mentioning nose dive, I noticed something interesting with KDSS locked in the open position. Significantly increased nose dive. I really was not expecting this, and it has me questioning exactly what KDSS is doing as well. Even at very low speeds bumper to bumper traffic, nose dive is night and day more noticeable than with KDSS operating normally, even at <10 mph speeds where it (in theory) should work identically whether KDSS is locked open or left to do its own thing.

 

[wfo9]

I don’t believe kdss has anything to do with nose dive or bouncy ride. Observations such as yours makes me question just what the hell kdss really does do.

There is still more going on with KDSS than most would think.. It's been a long time since I have driven stock ones.. but I remember something similar on nose dive. However, I still preferred the non KDSS ride as my focus/use case was a rough un-maintained roads at speed initially.

A traditional swaybar even with dynamic floating link to the frame should have no impact on nose dive or bounce on even terrain when going straight.

In other words, removing a traditional swaybar completely should have no impact on nose dive or bounce on even bumps in a straight line.

Yet, KDSS does seem to have impact. Why? Well it is not a traditional swaybar with links. It's some type of direct connect Torsion bar and seems to impact spring rates even on simple static even compression across the axle.... But maybe this is somewhat controlled by front to rear fluid shifts into the pistons when the accumulators are bypassed.

If you have ever removed or installed the KDSS swaybar you will feel a lot of tension... Yet a regular sway-bar would have 0 tension by design. You typically want the shocks doing all the dampening and the springs doing all the weight support, but Toyota has used a lot of torsion bar suspension in the past (which can act as springs). 100 series LC is an example (although very different than the KDSS bar)

I think there is still much to understand about it and each specific implementation as they are all a bit different. It's more than a swaybar and there is clearly some significant impact to suspension compliance at speed.

I also initially thought it was just a swaybar, but the more time goes on the more I think other things are at play.

Another interesting thing is how drastically different some people characterize the ride (like nose dive). Makes you wonder if some are working correctly.. or if there is some other factor at play... maybe just the typical difference in perception.

 

[honda250xtitan]

If you have ever removed or installed the KDSS swaybar you will feel a lot of tension... Yet a regular sway-bar would have 0 tension by design. .

This. It's almost as if it's an extra shock. I wonder if king/icon/fox valve their shocks differently to account for that? Probably not lol


i remember reading threads on titan forums about guys trying to remove sway bar end links with the truck up on jacks...silly goose just remove the sway bar before you do anything else.