rochmpr
Senior Member
700# Icons.
KDSS Removal
- Thread starter SirWilliamGoes
- Start date
700# Icons.
DesertCanyons
New member
Don't remove the KDSS
The only big reason to remove KDSS system or the sway bars is to install a long travel suspension, IMO. That is expensive and has it's own handling issues. Ask [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] how his LT handles.
Sure, sometimes you want a sway bar release when you're off-roading. But vehicles that have that usually disconnect it temporarily and reconnect them when you get back on the street. The Jeep Rubicon has an electronic sway bar disconnect. A standard sway bar can be disconnected manually, with tools.
I'd like to see a way to disconnect the sway bar for off-roading and extended travel, but I want to reconnect it for my daily driving. With the KDSS pistons and stiff bars, it's hard to disconnect it without a clamp on the piston and a lot of leverage on the bar ends. It might be a lot easier on a non-KDSS, standard sway bar.
If I were going to do this mod I'd try to machine a steel part that could clamp the piston with something stronger and more permanent than a strap or cable, think about U-bolts and plate. And I'd look for a way to hold/fix the sway bar in two places on the frame to fix it in place and hold it equally on both sides. That would be to achieve a stiff sway bar without the piston interaction. But what advantage would that have?
The only big reason to remove KDSS system or the sway bars is to install a long travel suspension, IMO. That is expensive and has it's own handling issues. Ask [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] how his LT handles.
Sure, sometimes you want a sway bar release when you're off-roading. But vehicles that have that usually disconnect it temporarily and reconnect them when you get back on the street. The Jeep Rubicon has an electronic sway bar disconnect. A standard sway bar can be disconnected manually, with tools.
I'd like to see a way to disconnect the sway bar for off-roading and extended travel, but I want to reconnect it for my daily driving. With the KDSS pistons and stiff bars, it's hard to disconnect it without a clamp on the piston and a lot of leverage on the bar ends. It might be a lot easier on a non-KDSS, standard sway bar.
If I were going to do this mod I'd try to machine a steel part that could clamp the piston with something stronger and more permanent than a strap or cable, think about U-bolts and plate. And I'd look for a way to hold/fix the sway bar in two places on the frame to fix it in place and hold it equally on both sides. That would be to achieve a stiff sway bar without the piston interaction. But what advantage would that have?
SirWilliamGoes
New member
I was thinking icons all the way around. I had this on a Tundra
honda250xtitan
New member
Its not exactly pretty, but it works. The reason for the turn buckle on the rear piston is to pull is back so the panhard does not hit the piston under compression.
Dope. so simple too. i ditched the sway bar on my titan, it was glorious with coilovers. weird at first tho, similar to a boat lol
Jetboy
New member
Just a word of caution. The first time a deer runs out in the road in front of you with no front sway bar, you'll understand why it has one. Take this from someone who's been there. If you do happen to keep your shiny side up, you put the sway bar back on the next day. If not you'll have a good start for your next buggy project. Just be sure that you fully understand how poorly the vehicle will handle in any type of emergency situation before you make the choice to remove the sway bar. You can rest assured however that if you drive it as a regular vehicle you're going to find out at some point. That dear or that child is going to run out in front of you at some point . It might be worth taking it off temporarily or disconnecting and go try to do some emergency maneuvers.
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jrandom
New member
Like that, KISS for KDSS. I suspect you could weld a few nuts in the front stock location and mount a standard swaybar with some quick disconnects, if you wanted/needed too.
I had thoughts that you could just take the cylinders out connect the I/O hose fittings, re-pressurize, and keep a closed system. Or fab a new piston mount that is a ~2 inches lower.
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rochmpr
Senior Member
I am sure some of those could have been done. When I came-up with this, my thought was to be able to re-install the sway bars, if I did not like the handling or if, for some reason, if selling it was a thought, the ability to put back in for re-sell value with not dash lights.
Also, this method cost me less than a 20 spot. I already had the clamps and had to buy about 10 ft of cable.
Now that it's been out for well over a year, I do not foresee re-installing it, but I also do not plan to remove the system, complete.
alphabeast
New member
If you plan on never using KDSS again, I would take off the accumulator and the two actuators and sell them. You probably have $1200 to $1500 in parts there. But since KDSS never breaks, no one will buy them
e60ral
Banned
needs both, it basically works by one pushing the other
off-road runner
New member
Save some frustration and trade it for a non KDSS.
natkidder
New member
I was thinking about leaving the rear sway bar intact but removing the front and using the method that rochmpr used of pushing the piston up and securing it there in a compressed state with a u-bolt or similar.
In that scenario, why wouldn't the rear continue to function? Or vice versa if you pulled the rear and left the front?
Not saying you're wrong, just trying to better understand... Wouldn't the force of the compressed piston mimic the upward force of the sway bar? It's all a closed system and the kdss doesn't realize that the sway bar is off right?
Isn't that why rochmpr has no kdss lights lit up—because they system doesn't realize anything is abnormal?
Just curious… anybody actually try doing this?
Jetboy
New member
Unless you can permanently close the shutter valves - the cylinder that's still connected will force pressure on the other one and probably break whatever you use to tie it up. Also it will float freely when the valves are open. So it'll move - but not be controlled like it is with KDSS. KDSS is a lot more effective than just a disconnected sway bar. If that's all you wanted - it's super easy for Toyota - or you - to build. Just replace the cylinder with a cheap off the shelf cylinder and add a 12v solenoid valve and a reservoir. You can lock or unlock on command. You lose the body stabilization effect that is the core value of the system.
So you'll basically get a very stiff rear sway bar if you can fix the piston in place with limited travel. Or minimal rear sway bar effectiveness. Neither one is a very good outcome. The rear is the place you would most want to remove it though. Why are you wanting to change the front? You can use KDSS with a front long travel suspension setup if you build a custom bracket to mount the sway bars to the new control arms. It should be pretty easy to fabricate the brackets. There's at least one long travel Tundra that has KDSS installed from an LC200 front and rear.
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e60ral
Banned
because the way it works is it either lets the connections "float" or it makes the connections "fixed" in which case when the drivers rear is pushes up the drivers front pushes down. it just pushes opposite, if you fixed the rear up it would push down on the front drivers side, it just wouldn't work.
natkidder
New member
Thank you both for the more detailed explanation.
I'm in no hurry to ditch kdss, more just a hypothetical.
I do feel like the front is where I'd want to gain more articulation and the kdss definitely limits it. In my experience, the rear flexes like crazy and was thinking that by leaving the rear intact, I could preserve some degree (like half) of the on-road benefit of kdss.
Anyway, I've seen a few non-kdss 5th gen owners do a front sway bar delete but leave the rear intact so that was really the impetus for my question.
I know the Nitro Gear LC 200 uses Tundra lower control arms and retains kdss… a custom extended bracket sounds like something worth exploring.
Cheers.
alphabeast
New member
I am going to +1 the "if you want to remove KDSS, trade it in for a non-KDSS". Does KDSS really limit articulation that much? Anyone have some numbers to prove this?
Jeremy556
New member
The IFS has pretty limited travel, I don't think it is really limited by KDSS. I have seen my suspension many times when one front wheel is fully stuffed with the LCA against the bump stop and the other wheel is at full droop in the air.
Not sure if this is fully compressed on the driver's side, but it is near full droop on pass side.
This is full stuff pass side and full droop driver side; there just isn't that much wheel travel to work with
Not sure if this is fully compressed on the driver's side, but it is near full droop on pass side.
This is full stuff pass side and full droop driver side; there just isn't that much wheel travel to work with
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Jeremy556
New member
It can in the rear if you go with longer shocks and extend the bump stops, the panhard bar will hit the KDSS cylinder.
Explore604
New member
Don't remove KDSS.
I mean yeah if you want to build a seriously modded rig like a few of the guys have and have a different daily driver. If you do lots of pavement driving do not underestimate how the handling will be changed (you probably will not like it).
I don't do extreme stuff with mine, but love KDSS for the ability to do a 5000 mile road trip, have great comfortable, crisp handling on the highways getting to Moab, then traverse the White Rim Road, then back on the highways.
If you really want to build a serious rig, like a few mentioned I'd just trade it in on a non-kdss. Despite what some say, it's not likely to easily find a buyer for those KDSS parts so don't plan on that.
I realize this post is 6 months old now so this could all be moot!
I mean yeah if you want to build a seriously modded rig like a few of the guys have and have a different daily driver. If you do lots of pavement driving do not underestimate how the handling will be changed (you probably will not like it).
I don't do extreme stuff with mine, but love KDSS for the ability to do a 5000 mile road trip, have great comfortable, crisp handling on the highways getting to Moab, then traverse the White Rim Road, then back on the highways.
If you really want to build a serious rig, like a few mentioned I'd just trade it in on a non-kdss. Despite what some say, it's not likely to easily find a buyer for those KDSS parts so don't plan on that.
I realize this post is 6 months old now so this could all be moot!
e60ral
Banned
the theoretical/technical limits of articulation are the same with KDSS and non-KDSS, in practical use though KDSS has more articulation, not less
(unless you're completely changing your suspension, then it just depends on if anything is in the way)
