KDSS(TE) vs Non KDSS (SR5)

[harper7]

Well, if you know harper, then you know that he does not let anything go that easy!

RTI doesn't mean much when these 4Runners are all far more capable then me and the majority of the drivers anyways. And having a rear locker is far more important and is what gets you over and thru obstacles. ATRAC is good but doesn't compare to a locker or lockers when it comes to the tough obstacles.
Baertrax just happened to have a RTI contest Saturday at the Toyota Jamboree.
Tengu's Stock TE with KDSS on a 30 degree ramp for a stock reference. I think it was a 186 score and did win the consolation prize for lowest in the contest.

Nothing stock LE and no front bar.....almost 34 inches and a 616 RTI .Winner had 1085 I believe in a lifted 84 FJ60 straight axle land cruiser

 

[Thai]

Can't find a stock SR5? Limited?

 

[harper7]

Can't find a stock SR5? Limited?

Three TE's with KDSS and myself were all the 5th Gens that were there. A stock FJ with swaybars had a 510 I believe.

 

[Thai]

Three TE's with KDSS and myself were all the 5th Gens that were there. A stock FJ with swaybars had a 510 I believe.

Wait...a 5th gen TE got 186...while stock FJ got 510?? Unless I misread your post, that makes absolutely no sense...something was wrong with the TE! And the fact that you believe such a big discrepancy is strange.

Thanks to: swaybar stats w/pix - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum

Front sway connected:

Front sway disconnected:

Just by disco'ing the front sway bar, the stock 4runner above gains 3" of compression!! Same suspension geometry...same parts...same 4runner...but different results!

Lucy, you got some splainin to do!! Harper7?? I would like to hear from some of these self-proclaimed suspension experts (harper7)...my guess is that this is where harper7 goes silent...like last time this topic came around....

Like I wrote above, KDSS adds to the off-road capability of the Trail Edition, along with rear locker and improved clearances. Some of you can blow it off all you want...but FACTS ARE FACTS folks. Whether one chooses to believe it or not is one's prerogative, but please don't talk BS when the facts are this clear.

BTW, 1engineer, I expect a LIKE to this post too.

 

[Thai]

According to Edmunds:

"KDSS is a hydaulic system that's fully automatic -- there are no switches on the dash because there is no need to turn it on or off. Instead, the front and rear stabilizer bars feature hydraulic cylinders on their left-hand sides, with piping connecting the two and a valve in between.

In a corner, both cylinders are squeezed (right turns) or stretched (left turns) in the same direction. Such "in-phase" loading produces front and rear pressures that are more or less equal, which holds the valve closed to keep those cylinders absolutely rigid so the stabilizer bars can deliver their full roll-resisting effects.

But frame twist off-road conditions -- and our RTI ramp -- produce positive pressure in the cylinder that's being compressed and negative pressure in the one being stretched. Such "out-of-phase" axle articulation causes the valve to pop open, which makes the cylinders go limp and take the stabilizer bars out of the picture.

But the stabilizer bars are not cut in two; they're still one-piece hunks of bent metal. When rigid, the cylinder is merely a link holds the pivot bushing in space, much like the rear stabilizer bar setup on a Ford Mustang. But here the open valve allows the cylinder to expand and contract at will, allowing that pivot bushing to float around and prevent the stabilizer bar from generating any torque."
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According to Insideline:

"What's all this good for? Some 20.2 inches of wheel lift, almost 2 inches MORE than our unmodified 2012 Jeep Wrangler Sport 2-door managed and only a quarter-inch less than the Jeep with its big tires fitted."

 

[Jesse1983]

Nothing stock LE and no front bar.....almost 34 inches and a 616 RTI .Winner had 1085 I believe in a lifted 84 FJ60 straight axle land cruiser

Well the TE didn't have anyone holding him up by the slider

 

[Stifler]

everyone know the SR5 is the best 4runner platform on the :beckylanet

 

[KCcarguy]

I don't know KC. Remember, TE also comes with a rear locker along with better clearances. Given decent tires and equal drivers, I would bet that a TE could leave a Limited or SR5 behind over some technical trails...due to the rear locker, better clearances, and/or KDSS.

Look, in off-roading, you want any advantage that you can get, big or small. Why do you think Jeep Rubicon comes with front axle disco's or why Land Rover makes such a big deal of articulation? KDSS allows the suspension to flex easier. And when a suspension flexes well, this means that you rely less on traction control and sudden loss of traction (aka kill momentum). (The addition of a rear locker for TE is just icing on the cake!) KDSS is not a technology that came out recently...it has been proven worldwide in Dakar-like races. The combination of stability on-road and improve articulation off-road is the holy grail for some.

And as noted by Edmunds insightful detailing of GX460 suspension and many other publications (FourWheeler as noted in link), KDSS works...and it works very well, both on-road AND off-road. It is a solid concept.

I agree on all points, BUT I think the locking diff is a bigger advantage than the KDSS. It should also be noted , FWIW, KDSS reduces clearance at the front skid by about 1". However, in the real world, KDSS makes a huge difference in on-road handling and it was especially impressive to me on rough/ undulating surfaces, like access roads, etc. It is well worth the money. As others have said, most of us don't push our trucks hard enough to notice an advantage off-road....assuming a significant advantage existed.

 

[1engineer]

Wait...a 5th gen TE got 186...while stock FJ got 510?? Unless I misread your post, that makes absolutely no sense...something was wrong with the TE! And the fact that you believe such a big discrepancy is strange.

Thanks to: swaybar stats w/pix - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum

Front sway connected:

Front sway disconnected:

Just by disco'ing the front sway bar, the stock 4runner above gains 3" of compression!! Same suspension geometry...same parts...same 4runner...but different results!

Lucy, you got some splainin to do!! Harper7?? I would like to hear from some of these self-proclaimed suspension experts (harper7)...my guess is that this is where harper7 goes silent...like last time this topic came around....

Like I wrote above, KDSS adds to the off-road capability of the Trail Edition, along with rear locker and improved clearances. Some of you can blow it off all you want...but FACTS ARE FACTS folks. Whether one chooses to believe it or not is one's prerogative, but please don't talk BS when the facts are this clear.

BTW, 1engineer, I expect a LIKE to this post too.

Thai, c'mon. Most everyone here knows that ramp scores are static measures of a dynamic system. Don't get lost in the clutter. Again, the TE and SR5 suspension geometry is the same. One allows easier compression is all. Seriously, at lower speeds and on the trails I use I can't really tell the difference off road. On road though it makes a big difference.

 

[Thai]

I agree on all points, BUT I think the locking diff is a bigger advantage than the KDSS. It should also be noted , FWIW, KDSS reduces clearance at the front skid by about 1". However, in the real world, KDSS makes a huge difference in on-road handling and it was especially impressive to me on rough/ undulating surfaces, like access roads, etc. It is well worth the money. As others have said, most of us don't push our trucks hard enough to notice an advantage off-road....assuming a significant advantage existed.

I agree. In the past, if you were to make a 4runner better on-road (handling etc.), then you lose off-road capability. If you make a 4runner better off-road, then you lose on-road handling. KDSS provides a perfect compromise. And like you said, it may be more noticeable on-road (which is where most folks spend their time)...but that's the beauty of it!! You get better handling, while sacrificing NOTHING off-road...actually, you gain off-road also! THAT is what i have been saying all along.

Some consider washboards off-road (like Prius and minivan owners! )...so, in essence, you HAVE seen the benefit of KDSS off-road.

Thai, c'mon. Most everyone here knows that ramp scores are static measures of a dynamic system. Don't get lost in the clutter. Again, the TE and SR5 suspension geometry is the same. One allows easier compression is all. Seriously, at lower speeds and on the trails I use I can't really tell the difference off road. On road though it makes a big difference.

The problem comes in when folks like harper7 and (in the past) 1engineer who argued endlessly about KDSS being nothing more than just bling...and does nothing. Apparently, 1engineer has seen the light. Easier compression is a significant off-road benefit...and don't forget, droop is also likely better. Unfortunately, it is also a bit harder to test.

Have you ever seen a vehicle with RTI of 9999999999999, yet has no articulation in the real world??? Or how about RTI of 2, yet has articulation better than Jeep Rubicon?? I have not. Feel free to correct me. So, i agree with you...lets cut out the clutter. Lets talk FACTS.

Look at harper7 pics...who do you think has better articulation in the real-world? The stock TE or the heavily modded LE? The modded LE has much better RTI, right? My bet is on the LE...what is your bet on? But, wait, you said that you don't believe in "static" measures! Lets put money on the table. Simple.

And if RTI is so limited, then why is it that it THE STANDARD of measurement by off-road folks...at every off-road event (see harper7's pic above)...is in every off-road magazine known to men as a way to evaluate off-road suspension????

In other words, the RTI is representative of real world flex. Granted, if you're comparing two vehicles with close RTI, then yeah, i agree that RTI may not tell the whole story. BUT, if the RTI difference is big, then the real world follows. As an engineer, you MUST see that, right??!!

Lets talk facts...anything else is so uncivilized.

 

[1engineer]

I agree. In the past, if you were to make a 4runner better on-road (handling etc.), then you lose off-road capability. If you make a 4runner better off-road, then you lose on-road handling. KDSS provides a perfect compromise. And like you said, it may be more noticeable on-road (which is where most folks spend their time)...but that's the beauty of it!! You get better handling, while sacrificing NOTHING off-road...actually, you gain off-road also! THAT is what i have been saying all along. You're missing the main point of KDSS.



The problem comes in when folks like harper7 and (in the past) 1engineer who argued endlessly about KDSS being nothing more than just bling...and does nothing. Apparently, 1engineer has seen the light. Easier compression is a significant benefit...and don't forget, droop is also likely better. Unfortunately, it is also a bit harder to test.

Have you ever seen a vehicle with RTI of 9999999999999, yet has no articulation in the real world??? Or how about RTI of 2, yet has articulation better than Jeep Rubicon?? I have not. Feel free to correct me. So, i agree with you...lets cut out the clutter. Lets talk FACTS.

Look at harper7 pics...who do you think has better articulation in the real-world? The stock TE or the heavily modded LE? My bet is on the LE...what is your bet on? But, wait, you said that you don't believe in "static" measures! Lets put money on the table. Simple.

In other words, the RTI is representative of real world flex. Granted, if you're comparing two vehicles with close RTI, then yeah, i agree that RTI may not tell the whole story. BUT, if the RTI difference is big, then the real world follows. As an engineer, you MUST see that, right??!!

Real world, for me, on the trails I ride means I can't ascertain any difference between the SR5 and the TE with KDSS.

Again, I can change ramp scores with a few psi difference in tires. We already have a thread on this and we are just re-hashing the same tired opinions. I will ask you this though [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION]: You have a KDSS equipped 4Runner and get into a situation off camber where one front tire is fully stuffed and one rear tire is barely touching at full extension. I have an SR5 in the same situation. Who has the better traction (excluding lockers) potential? The answer is they are equal of course because the both have the same geometry and the same travel.

Now, to split hairs, of course there is a slight difference with everything being the exact same on both vehicles. As I said in the other thread the difference is the maximum torsional force of the front SR5 sway bar. Now, add a fat guy in the passenger seat of the SR5 and that could possibly make everything equal. This is really splitting hairs for real world performance though.

 

[Thai]

You have a KDSS equipped 4Runner and get into a situation off camber where one front tire is fully stuffed and one rear tire is barely touching at full extension. I have an SR5 in the same situation. Who has the better traction (excluding lockers) potential? The answer is they are equal of course because the both have the same geometry and the same travel.

Good question. I understand that if you're going real fast and hit a rock on the road, then all 4runners potentially can hit the same bumpstop (compression to max) and that contacted tire on every 4runner travels the same distance. I can see that.

BUT, when going slower (aka crawling), i am not sure that you're right. Look at the pics that I posted from T120 forum. Here is a 4runner going up a ramp (in a garage). It is slow. The 4runner without sway bar compressed 3" more than a 4runner with sway intact. (RTI reflects similar movement.) For me, when i go off-roading, i crawl most of the time in 4-LO. In addition, weight distribution is all over the place because i could be going slowly up a rockledge or down a pothole filled path.

That for me is real life. A flexy suspension is great to have. All Jeep Wranglers probably have the same bumpstops and springs/shocks. Why did Jeep go and install a front disconnect? Same with Dodge PowerWagon. Why does a Range Rover need cross-linking (same axle) shocks if bumpstops determine all wheel travels? Why is there a difference of 100 on RTI b/w a GX470 with KDSS and one without if bumpstops were everything??

I understand what you're getting at. The limits are the same. However, in real life off-roading, KDSS allows the suspension to flex easier (aka conform to terrain) and thus maintain traction better. Effective wheel travel is better with KDSS. I guess that Toyota can lie in their literature (not the first time)...but FourWheeler and Edmunds BOTH felt that it improves (effective) wheel travel. They know more about this stuff than me (and probably you).

Now, the other side, why do you think Toyota invested so much money in installing KDSS to 4runners, GX, and Land Cruisers?? They could have easily just left good on-road handling alone by keeping XREAS and installing it on everything, right? KDSS is not cheap. And yes, it does cost a premium to customers. But, why did Toyota make that initial leap of faith?? Just so that it can use it as bling and charge more?

Maybe you're right...i am no engineer...but i would love to see SR5 vs. TE over the same terrain.

 

[Thai]

Off road, I honestly cannot tell the difference from the SR5. Again my off roading is not extreme. Lots of ruts and washboard with lots of hills too. It is usually a low speed affair.

Now, this is interesting...that is the problem with perception...everyone is different. KC said that KDSS makes a big difference over washboards...you felt the complete opposite. I rarely rely on perception...that is why i like hard cold data.

 

[eddiebx]

Front sway connected:

Thai, [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] brings up a good point, what if you had a fatty eating a box of Krispy Kremes sitting in the driver's seat in this exact picture and you managed to compress the front drivers side suspension enough to touch the bump stop? Then disconnecting the sway bar would show no improvement, right? With something so dynamic as a suspension, you can pretty much measure it to show whatever you want it to show given enough persuasion, so I don't see what's the point arguing about driving on a ramp

 

[Thai]

Thai, [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] brings up a good point, what if you had a fatty eating a box of Krispy Kremes sitting in the driver's seat in this exact picture and you managed to compress the front drivers side suspension enough to touch the bump stop? Then disconnecting the sway bar would show no improvement, right? With something so dynamic as a suspension, you can pretty much measure it to show whatever you want it to show given enough persuasion, so I don't see what's the point arguing about driving on a ramp

So, what is the point of a sports car if your argument is that a fatty (or several fatties even better) would negate a sports car handling/acceleration vs. a Corolla with a food-deprived Somalian as a driver. End of argument! Easy peasy, as my son would say.

Yeah, i guess that the guy from T120 forum could have had a fatty(ies) in there somewhere and lied about the whole thing...and decided to post it up on the forum. And i guess other folks on that forum was in on the lie also because they all responded with similar findings. Conspiracy theorists are here on this forum aplenty apparently! :flypig: I knew those T120 folks can't be trusted!! :cry2:

Or even better argument...all this talk about wheel travel is ridiculous because a 4runner on cement blocks can't go anywhere anyways, no matter how few Somalians you have in there! A Prius with an egotistical owner will beat a 4runner on blocks up a hill anyday of the week!

Anything is possible.

 

[eddiebx]

:deadhorse:

 

[1engineer]

Or even better argument...all this talk about wheel travel is ridiculous because a 4runner on cement blocks can't go anywhere anyways, no matter how few Somalians you have in there! A Prius with an egotistical owner will beat a 4runner on blocks up a hill anyday of the week!

Anything is possible.

(Hopefully my last post on this subject) Exactly. A vehicle on a ramp shows nothing other than that vehicle's measured suspension movement in a static condition. A Yaris will outperform a Rubicon if the Rubicon is left on the ramp lol.
I could easily modify a suspension that would allow the vehicle's own mass to take it to the stop once it goes up the ramp, which would allow for the highest RTI possible (same for both the TE and SR5) for that vehicle. Now, by doing this it would certainly not do anything else well like highway cornering or even improve off road performance, as it would hit the stops on every small undulation it encountered. It would have an impressive RTI score though!

My point is everything is a compromise. SR5, TE and LE all have different suspensions that are designed for different applications, although they can all "cross train" and do other applications well.

 

[Thai]

My point is everything is a compromise. SR5, TE and LE all have different suspensions that are designed for different applications, although they can all "cross train" and do other applications well.

Sorry, this makes no sense at all. I understand that you want to get out of this argument by making all sorts of "what ifs" and then making a statement like above...but, you and I know that what you wrote is bogus. We're both semi-intelligent to see it. IMHO, "what ifs" arguments happen when you're proven wrong...it is a quick way out without having to admit that you're wrong.

Have a good day everyone. I have said what i want to say.

 

[eddiebx]

So, what is the point of a sports car if your argument is that a fatty (or several fatties even better) would negate a sports car handling/acceleration vs. a Corolla with a food-deprived Somalian as a driver. End of argument! Easy peasy, as my son would say.

Yeah, i guess that the guy from T120 forum could have had a fatty(ies) in there somewhere and lied about the whole thing...and decided to post it up on the forum. And i guess other folks on that forum was in on the lie also because they all responded with similar findings. Conspiracy theorists are here on this forum aplenty apparently! :flypig: I knew those T120 folks can't be trusted!! :cry2:

Or even better argument...all this talk about wheel travel is ridiculous because a 4runner on cement blocks can't go anywhere anyways, no matter how few Somalians you have in there! A Prius with an egotistical owner will beat a 4runner on blocks up a hill anyday of the week!

Anything is possible.

No where did I say anyone was lying or that it's a huge conspiracy. My only point was you might be able to conduct the same exact test with the same exact vehicle and show little to no improvements with the sway bar disconnected...don't you agree these test can be easily biased one way or the other (intentionally or unintentionally)?

Sorry, this makes no sense at all. I understand that you want to get out of this argument by making all sorts of "what ifs" and then making a statement like above...but, you and I know that what you wrote is bogus. We're both semi-intelligent to see it. IMHO, "what ifs" arguments happen when you're proven wrong...it is a quick way out without having to admit that you're wrong.

Have a good day everyone. I have said what i want to say.

Now correctly me if I am wrong but, unless we spend all day long driving up and down a ramp, don't we kind of need to consider all the "what ifs".

 

[philsey]

:lalala:

Got the day off Thai?