Engineer
New member
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KDSS vs Non-KDSS?
- Thread starter NYRunner
- Start date
Green text normally equates to sarcasm around here
Cactus Jack
New member
Thanks for the information about KDSS, everyone.
So if you were me, would you get KDSS? Here is how I will use the vehicle:
- Will be a DD.
- Not concerned about on road comfort (I used to drive a fully built/locked Jeep XJ on 35s everyday to work and it was fine).
- I will eventually lift and build the 4runner (likely 3" lift and 33" tires).
- Trails around my area are mixed (some are tight and technical, some are open desert).
So if you were me, would you get KDSS? Here is how I will use the vehicle:
- Will be a DD.
- Not concerned about on road comfort (I used to drive a fully built/locked Jeep XJ on 35s everyday to work and it was fine).
- I will eventually lift and build the 4runner (likely 3" lift and 33" tires).
- Trails around my area are mixed (some are tight and technical, some are open desert).
Thai
Elite Member
Is money a problem? If not, then get the TRD PRO...instead of screwing around with aftermarket stuff.
e60ral
Banned
if you are going to lift and build buying a TRD Pro seems like a huge waste of money
Cactus Jack
New member
I agree with this, but that will only show me on road characteristics since dealerships do not like you to take their vehicles off road.
This has crossed my mind and money is not a problem, but I struggle with paying $10k extra for the PRO when I might be swapping to a different suspension in a few years. In other words, I'm not entirely convinced the extra cost for the PRO is justified.
Cactus Jack
New member
Agreed.
Why no KDSS upgrades?
I have KDSS and really like it. This is my DD as well as my AT (Adventure Traveler). I recently got a RTT, and hardly even notice it's up there. It's rock solid.
I also just got a 3" lift (Toytec Boss w/ HD springs). My mechanic, who's highly competent having built a lot of race cars over the years, but had never worked on a KDSS vehicle, raised one concern. After installing the lift, while in full droop (on the rack), the KDSS bar interferes with the sway bar. He said this should only be a problem if I am jumping my 4R. Now I don't plan on doing any jumps, but it got me thinking. It seems everyone's complaints with KDSS have to do with the length and geometry of the components. Why have none of the aftermarket people designed parts that are more compatible with bigger and longer travel suspension?
I am very happy with how my truck now, and am about to take off on a 10 day adventure. Can't wait to see how it is now off road...
I have KDSS and really like it. This is my DD as well as my AT (Adventure Traveler). I recently got a RTT, and hardly even notice it's up there. It's rock solid.
I also just got a 3" lift (Toytec Boss w/ HD springs). My mechanic, who's highly competent having built a lot of race cars over the years, but had never worked on a KDSS vehicle, raised one concern. After installing the lift, while in full droop (on the rack), the KDSS bar interferes with the sway bar. He said this should only be a problem if I am jumping my 4R. Now I don't plan on doing any jumps, but it got me thinking. It seems everyone's complaints with KDSS have to do with the length and geometry of the components. Why have none of the aftermarket people designed parts that are more compatible with bigger and longer travel suspension?
I am very happy with how my truck now, and am about to take off on a 10 day adventure. Can't wait to see how it is now off road...
Jetboy
New member
Many suspension manufacturers don't specialize. Engineering a good long travel solution would be hard to make money on. It takes a lot of specialty engineering time/effort. It's complex to manufacture and difficult to have installs done by non-experts that are idiot proof (think about having your local Midas try to install them). And there aren't a lot of them out there. There's a lot of GX460s - but very few being modified. And on top of that it's easy to delete KDSS, so they'll mostly just tell you to do that.
Dobinsons is the only one I know of making the right springs for KDSS. And that's just coil springs. I have a few ideas on how to do a proper long travel KDSS - but it'll be really expensive.
A good starting point would be to simply duplicate KDSS on both sides. Meaning add another complete KDSS system that replaces the fixed links on the passenger side. Then you have the problem of the cylinders not being double ended. So you'd also want to replace all 4 cylinders with double ended cylinders with long travel. That would probably be the best overall solution for aftermarket. I think you'd be looking at $10k by the time you've got a kit put together. I think a kit could at least use all FOX/KING/etc. shock bodies, shafts, seals, etc. But it'll still take a good bit of assembly and a few specialty manufactured parts.
Another option is to build brackets to improve the travel by increased leverage on the cylinders like the LC200 uses. That works well, but it needs other changes to make it remain symetrical in travel from right to left hand sides. For example here's a LC200 rear design.
The front could be quite easy - just move the mounting point inboard on the control arms by 2 inches per side. The rear is a lot trickier, although possibly you could do the same thing.
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Thai
Elite Member
If he was lifting higher etc, then yeah. But for me, having the peace of mind of a properly installed lift (TRD PRO), a factory warranty that goes with it, and not worrying about if the installer used the correct parts or torque it correctly.......is a HUGE factor.
And lets not forget that TRD PRO suspension has been properly tested by Toyota engineers for handling adequacy on-road (esp during emergency lane change) and properly designed to avoid wear & tear on other parts.
IF i were to go that route, then TRD PRO is well worth it in my opinion.
Cactus Jack
New member
Well said!
mynameistory
New member
Or you could do what I did: buy Pro takeoffs for cheap and put them on your KDSS truck. Best of all worlds.
Cactus Jack
New member
True. Love your signature, btw!
MidnightOffRoad
New member
I don't think so, I read his post. There's a ton of misconceptions being posted in this thread.
Here's what KDSS is: It's an automatic sway bar removal system (or proxy). Some makes/models actually feature sway bars you can disconnect (and there are aftermarket kits that offer this too) on 4xs of all kinds of makes/models.
Essentially, you have the sway bar connected (which aids in anti roll on pavement) you roll off the pavement, you stop, you disconnect the sway bar and now your vehicle's suspension is allowed to behave more independently, which results in greater geometric disparity between the two sides of the vehicle (which is KINDA a way of saying more wheel travel, but really it just means the wheels can move more freely without help or hinderence from the other side via the sway bar).
Rather than the crude old school kits that either allow you to disconnect, or the rednecks who drive around in Tacomas with their sway bar removed permanently (and rolling like crazy around every turn),
KDSS offers a bit of the best of all worlds, it allows for a very robust/stiff sway bar (for on road purposes) but at LOW(er) speeds it essentially acts to disconnect the sway bars effect/contribution and allow the vehicle to behave as if it has no sway bar.
Then, rather than having to get out of the vehicle and either reinstall the sway bar (or reconnect it with the quick disconn kits) you're vehicle simply reengages the KDSS (and the thick/heavy sway bar) at a certain vehicle speed level.
My personal opinion is that an OPERABLE KDSS system would have been great (i.e. you could control when it would engage or disengage). This would not only benefit OR adventures for slow rock crawling, but also help a little with high speed OR scenarios too.
I'm willing to BET that Toyota looked at this option and determined it would be a safety hazard (can you imagine someone inadvertently deactivating it at highway speeds and then rolling over around a high speed turn?).
In summary, all the KDSS is.....is an AUTOMATIC (tied to vehicle speed) way of synthetically removing the effect of a stiff sway bar....which allows the vehicle to behave more refined for high speed on road conditions, while relaxing and behaving more like a vehicle with no sway bar for slow offroad/crawl conditions.
dylans
New member
I'm in Tucson too. I've got a '13 Trail with KDSS and it does very well on the trails around town.
Handled the rock climbs around chimney rock with ease (Belotta Ranch Rd off of Redington Rd).
I went down the Chiva Falls loop a little this weekend and it was awesome. Although at stock height I had to be extra careful... That was the only limiting factor.
I've done some trails out near Arivaca. Flawless.
Graded dirt to washboard to rocks, sand, mud, incline, decline, off camber. I truly believe KDSS has been integral for the amount of success I've had off road.
It handles great on road as well, solid. I DD it. The family loves it.
We opted to take the 4Runner over our hybrid Camry on a 2000 mile road trip through Colorado and back recently. The fuel economy difference didn't matter. The 4Runner is just much more comfortable when considering the whole package, and KDSS is integral in that for road trips too. It's crazy smooth on road and on mountain highways. We feel spoiled coming from an '89 FJ62 haha.
Go for the KDSS. But 'spring' for a lift :biggrin2:, I will be soon.
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elnip
Member
New Sonoran Steel Product: KDSS High Articulation/Long Travel Trac/PanHard bar
I just ran across this the other day. Steve has done some work for me in the past and has been around for quite some time. He does quality work.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/255404-new-sonoran-steel-product-kdss-high-articulation-long-travel-trac-panhard-bar.html
[MENTION=1795]sschaefer3[/MENTION]
I just ran across this the other day. Steve has done some work for me in the past and has been around for quite some time. He does quality work.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/255404-new-sonoran-steel-product-kdss-high-articulation-long-travel-trac-panhard-bar.html
[MENTION=1795]sschaefer3[/MENTION]
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mrblah
Senior Member
its a great piece of kit, but completely unnecessary if you are only doing a lift of 3 inches or less.
Cactus Jack
New member
Thanks for the info and feedback on all the various trails you've ran it on! It seems like finding a ORP w/o KDSS in AZ is like trying to find a unicorn. I may just go this route (ORP w/ KDSS) and if in a couple years I get crazy with the lift, I can always just remove KDSS if I have to.
We'll need to go wheeling soon once I get my rig!
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