Lift new 4runner w/KDSS ?

[dhatcher]

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I have decided to upgrade from our Xterra to a new 4runner this year. We're still looking at them but, I'm fairly decided on a Trail Edition Premium with KDSS.

I'll be doing some work to it to turn it into our weekend getaway vehicle. One of the first things I wanted to do is lift it and try to squeeze some 285/70/17's in there. From what I've been reading I would likely need about a 3" lift with 1" body lift (correct me in these areas if I'm wrong) and possibly some new ucas and or spacers for the wheels so the tires don't rub on the ucas.

I've recently been researching about lifting a 4runner with KDSS and have come to the understanding it's not the easiest thing in the world. I've been reading through this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/175428-suspension-lift-2014-toyota-4runner-kdss.html and it has been pretty helpful.

Some things I have questions about:

What's with the spacer on one side to level out the vehicle? I just can't quite wrap my head around why you would need a spacer after the lift when it wasn't necessary before the lift. What is it about the lift that changes the need for it? Is it because the KDSS system gets out of balance somehow?

And really what I'm coming to is, is it really even worth it to get KDSS if I'm going to lift the vehicle? It seems from what people say, the KDSS system should be re-calibrated after a lift but, don't trust the dealer to do it because they don't understand the system. So who should do it or should it be left alone and will it function fine?

Also, with the lift and bigger tires, does it really affect things like ABS and A-trac all that much that the dealer would need to re-calibrate the ecu?

Thanks for any help you guys can send my way to help me make a decision on which model to get.

 

[Cymon]

Hi Everyone,
One of the first things I wanted to do is lift it and try to squeeze some 285/70/17's in there. From what I've been reading I would likely need about a 3" lift with 1" body lift (correct me in these areas if I'm wrong) and possibly some new ucas and or spacers for the wheels so the tires don't rub on the ucas.

system. So who should do it or should it be left alone and will it function fine?

Also, with the lift and bigger tires, does it really affect things like ABS and A-trac all that much that the dealer would need to re-calibrate the ecu?

Thanks for any help you guys can send my way to help me make a decision on which model to get.

First...welcome to the forum and the jump. I had an '06 Xterra once upon a time and loved it. The 4runner to me is like an Xterra for adults.

To answer a few of your questions...

A 3" lift plus 1" body lift (4" total") is not necessary to run 285's. You'll find that one of the most popular combinations found on the 5th gens on this forum is a 2.5" front lift with a 2" rear spring. This can fit 285's, especially if you're keeping the stock wheels or similar backspacing (spacers will make fitment worse). You may have to do a minor fender liner mod (just type it in the search and you'll find out more) and/or remove the mudflaps but that is about it. Most important thing to get 285's to fit seems to be getting the right alignment with a 3-4 degree or higher caster setting. This means most likely that you'll want UCA's, which most find they need over a 2" lift.

This size tire will increase will decrease gas mileage and/or stopping distance (that's just plain physics) and some power reduction, but the majority of people are running them with no issues.

Check the links to take a look at some lifts/tire size and help with you're searching to see what you like and then go for it.

As for the KDSS, people lift with the system. It really will come down to what type of suspension/lift you want...KDSS is a funny talking point around here as some love it and some don't, but I would test drive first and see if you like the difference even in stock form.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/165065-5th-gen-4runner-lift-buyers-guide.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/208458-you-new-prospective-5th-gen-4runner-owner-need-help-searching-start-here.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/208403-changing-tire-size-wheels-read-first.html#post2161256

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW - lift makes no difference in tire fitment. There are other reasons to lift, but tire fit isn't one of them unless you're going long arm or bracket lift. The limitation on size is in the front where the IFS means that a lift is just changing the static height of the system, not the range of travel. You can fit 285's stock. I have 285s and generally set my adjustable front coilovers at around stock height. If I'm headed to Moab for a weekend I'll crank them up a bit and add some air to the rear (I have airbags from a GX460 in the rear of mine). Otherwise I roll at stock height 99& of the time.

I have KDSS. I wouldn't have bought a 4runner without it after test driving. If it were offered on a limited - I'd be driving a limited. You need to test drive with both to see if it's right for you. If you want a big lift and long travel, KDSS will cause more headaches than it may be worth to you. If you keep the lift mild, it's a non-issue and handles great on the highway.

Also a body lift does nothing for tire clearance. The limitation is the front body mount where it rubs. Body lift doesn't help that. You can search for BMC or body mount chop to learn more. The only real options for really big tires are custom a-arms up front to move the axis of rotation of the spindle outward away from the vehicle's frame and/or forward, or a solid axle swap. IMO it's not worth the effort to go much beyond 34" tires unless you're going up to maybe 38's or above. It's a LOT of dollars and time to jump from a 34 inch tire to a 35.

 

[dhatcher]

Thank you! Yeh we enjoy the xterra but we have a daughter now who is nearing 1 year old and a 100lb dog who sometimes goes on trips with us. It's getting quite hard to fit everything needed for even just a couple of nights of camping. That's what lead us to the 4runner.

The reason we like the KDSS (we did test drive one) is that my wife and I both get motion sick quite easily on twisty highways if we're not the one driving. The KDSS seems to keep body roll on twisties to a minimum (much less so than the Xterra at least) and I think that will help ease the nausea that comes from motion sickness.

Right now I'm currently looking pretty closely at:

OME Full Suspension System For 2010+ 4Runners

25480 - SPC Adjustable Upper Control Arms for FJ & 03-Current 4Runner

SPC/Light Racing Replacement ball joint (pair)

This one I'm not sure but, from what I can tell most people are installing this with lifts and bigger tires?
TAC-DR-05 - Front Differential Drop Kit

 

[dhatcher]

FWIW - lift makes no difference in tire fitment. There are other reasons to lift, but tire fit isn't one of them unless you're going long arm or bracket lift. The limitation on size is in the front where the IFS means that a lift is just changing the static height of the system, not the range of travel. You can fit 285's stock. I have 285s and generally set my adjustable front coilovers at around stock height. If I'm headed to Moab for a weekend I'll crank them up a bit and add some air to the rear (I have airbags from a GX460 in the rear of mine). Otherwise I roll at stock height 99& of the time.

I have KDSS. I wouldn't have bought a 4runner without it after test driving. If it were offered on a limited - I'd be driving a limited. You need to test drive with both to see if it's right for you. If you want a big lift and long travel, KDSS will cause more headaches than it may be worth to you. If you keep the lift mild, it's a non-issue and handles great on the highway.

Also a body lift does nothing for tire clearance. The limitation is the front body mount where it rubs. Body lift doesn't help that. You can search for BMC or body mount chop to learn more. The only real options for really big tires are custom a-arms up front to move the axis of rotation of the spindle outward away from the vehicle's frame and/or forward, or a solid axle swap. IMO it's not worth the effort to go much beyond 34" tires unless you're going up to maybe 38's or above. It's a LOT of dollars and time to jump from a 34 inch tire to a 35.

Good to know! I think at this point I'm dropping the body lift idea and just considering a 2.5"-3" lift with 285's. I'm familiar with having to mod the wheel well liners and mud flaps as I had to do that on my xterra to fit 285's on it.

 

[Lukesaysrelax]

I have a trail with kdss and installed the same lift you referenced. I have a fair amount of mechanic experience but if you can work a socket wrench you can do your lift lol. I'm currently running 275's though and I get rubbing at full lock, so maybe consider that before going 285s?

 

[nb rob]

the latest king coilover instructions for their KDSS-compatible kit explicitly say NOT to disconnect the front swaybar. It's bold and highlighted in 2 or 3 different spots in the instructions. The instructions seem to be very thorough.

I've never seen anything like that on this site, so I'm really interested to install exactly per their instructions.

Of course I'll be monkeying around with the swaybar in the rear to install new rear springs.

 

[Engineer]

You have gotten great advise above, my only comment is that a stock 4runner with decent A/T tires will function perfectly for your weekend warrior'ng.

I think your choice of lift is good, If I was to do things over again I would go with an OME setup or Bilstein.

You don't need the differential drop

 

[dhatcher]

Just to give everyone an idea of what we're doing on the weekends, I just recently ran Corral Hollow Trail (here in CA) in my Xterra (that was our 1st off road experience) and that was pretty darn fun. I'll be looking for more trails that are similar in technical expertise needed to run until I build some confidence in my off road driving capabilities and can move on to slightly more technical trails. I also plan to hit up a lot of dirt roads and find places to explore (like this area near Reno http://4x4trailmaps.com/4x4Trails.php?Trail_ID=452 ).

 

[1engineer]

Just to give everyone an idea of what we're doing on the weekends, I just recently ran Corral Hollow Trail (here in CA) in my Xterra (that was our 1st off road experience) and that was pretty darn fun. I'll be looking for more trails that are similar in technical expertise needed to run until I build some confidence in my off road driving capabilities and can move on to slightly more technical trails. I also plan to hit up a lot of dirt roads and find places to explore (like this area near Reno 4x4TrailMaps - Lagomarsino Canyon ).

A stock 4Runner with decent tires will go much further than your courage will. Nothing needs to be done except tires to run that stuff.

Follow the advice above. If you do you will be fine with no problems. If you decide you are smarter than those guys then you will be on your own... and sorry to boot.

 

[Cymon]

Thank you! Yeh we enjoy the xterra but we have a daughter now who is nearing 1 year old and a 100lb dog who sometimes goes on trips with us. It's getting quite hard to fit everything needed for even just a couple of nights of camping. That's what lead us to the 4runner.

This is exactly why we moved on to an Outback. Now we added the 4Runner. I think it's awesome you're getting into the trail riding. FWIW these things are incredible stock for the "Weekend Warrior". I have some examples of what I've done on stock suspension and tires in my thread here...
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/222282-cymons-weekend-warrior-mfd-thread.html

Or even better check out [MENTION=129593]MTN4RNR[/MENTION] thread...he is still on stock suspension but upgraded tires and he's put his through the ringer. He is also in your neck of the woods.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/209558-building-driving-adventuring-mtn4rnr.html

But if you want the lift...get the lift. One thing that I think is a good piece of advice that I have taken to heart is drive it stock for a while, see what it can do and the limitations and then you will better understand what you "need". If you want it for looks, that's a different story.

 

[Brandonium]

On road handling is a huge plus for me which is why I gave up my quest for the Rubicon Unlimited and began looking at the 4-Runner. I've read mixed reviews about KDSS but with anything you will have those that do not like it and others that do. I have no desire to lift more than 2/2.5 and from what I have read KDSS makes the 4-Runner more behaved and stable without compromising off road capabilities. I know I will have a hard time finding one equipped with KDSS as the SouthEast seems to have very few (all in black).

 

[Muzzle of Bees]

Interesting 4Runner internal storage comparison to the Xterra. I had a 2003 1st gen Xterra and a 2006 2nd gen Xterra. I could carry as much or more in my Xterra compared to my 4Runner. I miss the rear hidden compartment. I stored many things there. The rear doors in the 4Runner are larger for getting in and out of. Otherwise, not so much better. The 4Runner is 11 inches longer too. And a little wider.

 

[MTN4RNR]

Or even better check out [MENTION=129593]MTN4RNR[/MENTION] thread...he is still on stock suspension but upgraded tires and he's put his through the ringer. He is also in your neck of the woods.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/209558-building-driving-adventuring-mtn4rnr.html

But if you want the lift...get the lift. One thing that I think is a good piece of advice that I have taken to heart is drive it stock for a while, see what it can do and the limitations and then you will better understand what you "need". If you want it for looks, that's a different story.

[MENTION=117996]dhatcher[/MENTION], good advice here ^. If you're not in a rush, run stock with 275/70R17 as I have been. You'll realize that in stock form it's really capable, and that likely you'll want a suspension upgrade. BUT the great part is that when you drive stock for a while, you know where the limitations of the vehicle are and what you want to put the $ to when it comes to upgrading. You'll find your skid plate (a lot if you're pushing it), and the ride will be bumpy at times, but I have been very impressed so far. When I do upgrade, I will be that much better off having learned the limits of the stock form.

 

[dhatcher]

Interesting 4Runner internal storage comparison to the Xterra. I had a 2003 1st gen Xterra and a 2006 2nd gen Xterra. I could carry as much or more in my Xterra compared to my 4Runner. I miss the rear hidden compartment. I stored many things there. The rear doors in the 4Runner are larger for getting in and out of. Otherwise, not so much better. The 4Runner is 11 inches longer too. And a little wider.

Was that with the back seats folded down in the Xterra? With the back seats folded down, you arguably could get as much in the X as you can the 4runner but, try without folding back seats down. Becomes a different world (need space for the kiddo and dog to ride along too ).

 

[Jetboy]

the latest king coilover instructions for their KDSS-compatible kit explicitly say NOT to disconnect the front swaybar. It's bold and highlighted in 2 or 3 different spots in the instructions. The instructions seem to be very thorough.

I've never seen anything like that on this site, so I'm really interested to install exactly per their instructions.

Of course I'll be monkeying around with the swaybar in the rear to install new rear springs.

I have unbolted my KDSS swaybar multiple times. It's actually not really a big deal at all - just don't crack the hydraulic lines! It is a bit of a hassle to get back into place if you don't tie it up correctly. I just use a ratchet strap around the cylinder to hold it's extension length while I'm working on the other stuff. I think I've swapped front coilovers 4 times now. It's very easy on these. Takes about 20-30 minutes after you figure out how to do the first one.

 

[dhatcher]

[MENTION=117996]dhatcher[/MENTION], good advice here ^. If you're not in a rush, run stock with 275/70R17 as I have been. You'll realize that in stock form it's really capable, and that likely you'll want a suspension upgrade. BUT the great part is that when you drive stock for a while, you know where the limitations of the vehicle are and what you want to put the $ to when it comes to upgrading. You'll find your skid plate (a lot if you're pushing it), and the ride will be bumpy at times, but I have been very impressed so far. When I do upgrade, I will be that much better off having learned the limits of the stock form.

Thanks! I'm getting ready to read through yours and Cymons threads. Also plowing through the wheel thread (http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/208403-changing-tire-size-wheels-read-first.html) trying to understand offset and fit because I will likely want to change the stock rims out (just for looks).

 

[Cymon]

Interesting 4Runner internal storage comparison to the Xterra. I had a 2003 1st gen Xterra and a 2006 2nd gen Xterra. I could carry as much or more in my Xterra compared to my 4Runner. I miss the rear hidden compartment. I stored many things there. The rear doors in the 4Runner are larger for getting in and out of. Otherwise, not so much better. The 4Runner is 11 inches longer too. And a little wider.

I have to strongly disagree here, I had the 2006. The underneath storage was a cool feature, but the 4runner swallows cargo that I could have never fit in my Xterra, not to mention that I can fit rear facing car seats in the 4runner and still be able to drive comfortably. I upgraded to my 2012 outback because even that cargo space was better then the X-terra's and the rear legroom was much better. The 4runner even with the 3rd row that takes up a couple cubic feet trumps them both by a large margin.

I could never have done the road trips that I do now in my Xterra with two kids in car seats and a dog in her crate in the trunk and still pack like I'm on one of those doomsday preper shows.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW: Xterra has 36 cu/ft and 66 cu/ft of cargo space with seats up or down respectively. 4Runner has 47 and 90. The 4runner has about 50% more cargo space.

Fun additional fact: 4runner has 90 cu/ft and the LC200 in USA trim only has 82 and the GX460 has 65.

 

[JSparky]

FWIW: Xterra has 36 cu/ft and 66 cu/ft of cargo space with seats up or down respectively. 4Runner has 47 and 90. The 4runner has about 50% more cargo space.

Fun additional fact: 4runner has 90 cu/ft and the LC200 in USA trim only has 82.

I remember reading that about the lc200, I'm curious if that stat includes the 3rd row seat or not.. Those suckers take up a lot of space.