Locked up brake, help diagnose please!

[Avarice]

Hey all, I've found myself in a tough spot with the runner. The left rear wheel is completely locked and for the life of me I can't figure out why. I'll preface the story with how this happened which explains why I'm so confused.

It just snowed a good 8inches in calgary and it's -16 Celsius out so I have yet to get under the car and fiddle with anything as it's currently parked in a bunch of snow.


Yesterday while taking a corner in a parking lot the rear end stepped out and after getting it straight i put the brakes on, no drama, abs did it's thing and pulsated as usual. Afterwhich I noticed the rear kept stepping out like it was being pulled by the front (had limited model push button 4wd on). This is when I noticed my ABS light was on. I pulled it over, tossed it in nuetral, ran through a few gears, and it came off and the wheel unlocked and it drove fine. Drove a good 3 hours after that yesterday with 0 issues, and that includes multiple stops where it was parked for 20min or more.

Earlier today I went to drop off spare set of rims and tires to get mounted and balanced at a shop, again no issues going there. After dropping em off(20min about) I started the car and began to drive out of the parking lot, no more than 15seconds in it started to step out again with the familiar sensation of pulling a locked rear end(anyone who has ebrake drifted in the snow with a FWD knows the feeling). The ABS light was back on. I tried the same thing, ran it through all the gears, tried reversing, putting into 4hi with the shifter, 4lo, even tried putting on the rear locker. Didnt help, light stayed on, wheel stayed locked. Luckily the shop is about a block from my parents house so I limped her there and got some pliers to pull the abs fuse(all my fuses are hell to pull out). Popped it out, light stayed on obviously, but it stayed locked. Left it for about 20 min while I searched the net for some explanation and decided to go see if it would work. When I tried it in drive, it stayed locked, threw it in reverse and it rotated normally, putting power down again, put in drive and it drove fine for about 10 feet and then it locked again after being perfectly fine, and it wasn't progressive, it went from being free to full lock in a second. :shrug:

So, I thought it had to be the ABS system, but as far as I know, the rear only has 1 sensor, so I would assume both wheels would lock if it was the culprit, not both. Also, I pulled the fuse so that should have stopped it. So, I'm confused and sadly I can't just get under it or jack the wheel easily as it's icy/snowy and cold out and I can't get it to my garage until I tow it, which I'd rather avoid. If anyone has any idea what this is so I can go about fixing it directly rather than taking the roundabout way of trial and error I'd be in your debt. Sorry for the long winded explanation but I feel like it should help make the problem a bit clearer.

PS. I've never had a problem like this with her before, not last winter, not this summer when I was on lots of dirt and gravel, and not the previous 2 days when it was this cold and snowy/icy.

 

[quicksilvr]

Your ebrake is stuck. Get a hammer, and bang the back of the lever TOWARDS the brake drum. There is an adjustment screw on the end you want to bang on. Bang on it until the screw is resting on the drum. They get really corroded and rusty, and it makes them stick, especially if you set the brake hard.


EDIT: I'm assuming your set your ebrake every time you park. That explains why it only happens sometimes.....sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn't). If you don't use your ebrake....then....hm. You should still check them, but I doubt that's the issue.

 

[Avarice]

Sadly that's not the case.

The lever and all the associated parts are working fine. It's pressed right up to the drum and it operates as usual when I activate/deactivate the parking brake. Had to limp it home through the alleys by putting the rear elocker on which managed to overcome whatever is keeping the wheel locked as long as I kept it above 4kph, otherwise it locked again and stopped the car.

Gonna jack it up and take the wheel off to see if I can spot anything apparent.

Again, it works perfectly fine in reverse, it doesnt lock up or anything, it's only going forward that it locks up.

Thanks for the suggestion though, I wish that was it, would make life so much simpler.

 

[cfranck1]

It might be a wheel seal, but I don't think so because you said it was sporadic.

Maybe your brake shoe lining came off on one shoe? and is getting jambed between the shoe and the drum

Maybe a broken spring inside?

Maybe a pin pushed thru the backing plate?

Maybe a binding wheel cylinder??

And their are 2 ABS sensors in the rear.
That's why when you lock the rear diff, the ABS is turned off.

 

[Sig220]

Interesting thread.........

I am having a related problem as of late with my 98 T4R, auto, 4WD.

When I am driving a normal speeds...........20 or 30 mph, the brakes react normally when I come to a stop.

If I am barely moving in a parking lot and lightly apply the brakes, the rears start locking up........well they do lock up on the rear drivers side. When you try to move forward there is a "jolt" and the wheel brakes free and acts normal again.

As it has been more noticeable lately, it is starting to get my attention. I have pulled the rear drums before and there is plenty of meat on the rear shoes, and nothing abnormal looking on the drum or shoes. In the past, I blew it off as rust forming in the drum between drives (don't use as a daily driver) but am not so sure anymore.

Anybody have any ideas of what is causing it........might be related to the OP's problem.

 

[Avarice]

popped the wheel off

So after taking the wheel off and inspecting all the associated parts I couldn't find anything that is outwardly causing the problems, ebrake on both sides is acting as it should. Gonna take the drum off tomorrow and see if anything is wrong on the inside. Too bad the 3rd gens didn't have rear discs, I hate drum brakes.

In relation to Sig220's post, I had a similar issue. When leaving the park brake on overnight, or any extended period of time the vehicle would make a bit of a snapping sound at the rear, nothing crazy, but enough to make me notice. Started doing it a couple weeks ago but I ignored it as I had a bunch of other routine maintenance to get done prior to winter. I'm guessing that was a precursor to the problem I'm suffering from now, and it was the extreme temperatures and excessive amount of ABS kicking in that aggravated it into the problem it's become.

On a side note, how time consuming/pain in the ass is it to replace the shoes. Normally I'd tackle this task w/o any worries but when it's -15 out and you don't have a heated garage, DIY tasks need to be quick and relatively painless.

 

[cfranck1]

In relation to Sig220's post, I had a similar issue. When leaving the park brake on overnight, or any extended period of time the vehicle would make a bit of a snapping sound at the rear, nothing crazy, but enough to make me notice. Started doing it a couple weeks ago but I ignored it as I had a bunch of other routine maintenance to get done prior to winter. I'm guessing that was a precursor to the problem I'm suffering from now, and it was the extreme temperatures and excessive amount of ABS kicking in that aggravated it into the problem it's become.

I think the ebrake (Bell Cranks) is stuck on for you. When driving it, it gets hot and then you park it for the night or a few days and the shoe and drum sort of get welded together and the when you take off you break the seal those 2 parts made.

 

[Sig220]

Went shopping for answers with some friends and here is what they think:

#1 Check your e-brake....put the vehicle in drive and slowly pull the brake, if it engages in the first 3 clicks (like mine did) you need to loosen the rear brake pads. So just pull the drum and using the star adjuster close them about 10 clicks. They adjust themselves when we go into reverse, and sometimes get too tight.

#2. The brake shoes on the T4R are squared off, not chamfered....one friend with a Tundra had the brake problem and after the dealer could not solve it but going as far as to replace the transmission (and it still happened) he replaced the rear pads with OEM but put them on a grinder and chamfered the edges so it doesn't have such a "step" in them. He has had no more problems!!

I am leaving on a 500 mile trip today, so won't bother with the brakes now. When I get back, I am going to loosen the rear shoes and see and if needed replace the rear shoes and chamfer the edges.

We will solve this problem.

To the original poster, I would back off the offending wheel's shoes about 15 clicks and do the other about 10 and see how it goes.

It seems our problem is the rear brakes "grabbing" too much, too early and yours went to the extreme.

 

[don_davi]

I had a similar problem last winter and it was the dammest thing. The only way to UNLOCK was to put the car in Reverse, move a little and then popping it in Drive right away. Turned out I had a an axle seal leak and the cold weather would turn the fluid into a glue like substance and LOCK my drum to the brake Pad. I got the seal replaced, cleaned my brake pads (also sanded them a little by hand to make sure all the oils were off the pad), cleaned the drum with brake cleaner. It's all good now Last week I found out that my right rear side is leaking so I got that fixed ASAP! Good thing because today is 10 degrees in Montana Don't want to be stuck in traffic again!

 

[coolpilot]

Interesting thread.........

I am having a related problem as of late with my 98 T4R, auto, 4WD.

When I am driving a normal speeds...........20 or 30 mph, the brakes react normally when I come to a stop.

If I am barely moving in a parking lot and lightly apply the brakes, the rears start locking up........well they do lock up on the rear drivers side. When you try to move forward there is a "jolt" and the wheel brakes free and acts normal again.

As it has been more noticeable lately, it is starting to get my attention. I have pulled the rear drums before and there is plenty of meat on the rear shoes, and nothing abnormal looking on the drum or shoes. In the past, I blew it off as rust forming in the drum between drives (don't use as a daily driver) but am not so sure anymore.

Anybody have any ideas of what is causing it........might be related to the OP's problem.

Hi,

I have 97 stock 4runner SR5 Auto , 4wd .
I got the same problem as you.
I hear a big jolt. in the rear wheels.
I consulted a local mechanic, he said it might be because I use Handbrake whenever I park.!!!!

I heard this noise in the morning after a freezing night weather.

Still investigating.

 

[Sig220]

Made my road trip and back. I did not have the problem on the trip, until I returned home and pulled in the driveway as I was pulling up very slowly the left rear brake locked up it even left about 10 inches of a skid mark!!!

So today, I got the chance to change oil, rotate my tires and I pulled the rear drums off....everything pretty dam clean and loosened the rear shoes to see if that would work. I backed it off the rack and the brakes took more effort then usual which I figured it would since the rear shoes are not engaging as quick.
Pulled it forward and applied the E-brake and it took a bunch of clicks before it engaged. So far, so good..........but I spoke too soon.

Later as I was running some errands it locked up twice at slow speeds again.

After Thanksgiving, I plan to replace the rear shoes and bevel them.

I also noticed that the rear drums had some blue color to them (on the inside surface) like the brakes had been engaging even when they were not applied by the driver. I will check them again on Friday and replace if out of round.

I will find the solution to this problem one way or another!!

Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

[Sig220]

Hi,

I have 97 stock 4runner SR5 Auto , 4wd .
I got the same problem as you.
I hear a big jolt. in the rear wheels.
I consulted a local mechanic, he said it might be because I use Handbrake whenever I park.!!!!

I heard this noise in the morning after a freezing night weather.

Still investigating.

I guess I should add that it is warm/hot down here in SE Texas, although it will be getting cooler later this week. Looks like it may happen at any temperature.

I also don't use the handbrake at all........except to try it in diagnosing this problem. This place is so flat you could drop a hand full of marbles and they would stack up on each other:redbrick:

By the way, welcome aboard!!

 

[Sig220]

Okay, I got a chance to replace the rear shoes today. There was not much difference in thickness between the old ones and the new ones but I changed them anyway after beveling/chamfering the edges. I used a big bench grinder to do that.

The old pads had some weird wear on the edges.....it almost looked like the braking material was pulled over the edge of the pads. Maybe the mod will prevent that.

Still surprised at how clean it was inside the drum.

The pads I used were the Wagner's from O'Reilly's. No problems with a rear wheel lock up................yet. But I don't want to claim victory too early!!!

 

[Sig220]

Update,

Had to run a bunch of errands and put about 30 miles on the new brake job. Most of this driving was stop and start thanks to black Friday, but have not had the problem return yet.:ak472: Like that smilie!!!

 

[fenrisx]

At least I'm not the only one with brake problems!

My problem is sometimes during the winter when I get in to head to work or whatever.. my brake pedal doesn't move.. like something in the brake system is frozen.

Typically when they do 'unfreeze' the first pedal press seems to go down further than normal.. Sometimes I can just set parked and press the pedal a few times and it'll 'unlock'.. But sometimes it takes 10-12mins.

I thought made I had old fluid with some moisture in the lines, but I had that flushed out and replaced with new. Even after that it happened a several more times last winter. Didn't do it all spring/summer... However it did do it again about a week ago (winter time again).

 

[steezemcqueen]

Bump. i just noticed this happening during the snowstorm we got yesterday. Did new brake shoes fix it?

 

[fenrisx]

Bump. i just noticed this happening during the snowstorm we got yesterday. Did new brake shoes fix it?

Not for me. I put new pads, rotors, shoes, and drums after it first started happening, and it didn't fix anything for me.

I swear the other day the fist brake press before I pulled onto the street was fine, and then the second was 'froze'. So.. I'm not sure what's going on.

Ideally, I don't want to work on brakes during a Minnesota winter.. and I probably wont'. But if I do during the summer I won't know if the problem is fixed or not!

 

[Avarice]

Forgot about this thread, but I have a few updates as far as whats been going on for me.

A month ago -

When I popped the drums off, I found a bit of what looked like grease mixed with worn brake material. I got 4 cans of brake cleaner and a toothbrush/rags and cleaned all the mechanisms, and the brake shoes and the drums themselves. Really made sure to get in there and get everything out as I was worried I have leaking axle seals and I wanted to have a super clean point of reference in case I go back in there and find grease/oil, I'll know its the seals for sure.

After I did this and loosened the star wheel adjuster to back off the brake shoes a bit, everything worked fine. No more locked wheels after parking, or while driving, and smooth brake operation. I did stop putting the parking brake on as well.

2 weeks ago -

I started to notice hesitation off the line, the car didn't naturally crawl forward as fast as it usually does(its an automatic). Once I give it a tiny bit of gas to get it moving, it will coast along as it usually does. Auto's always slowly crawl forward when you get off the brakes, but mine doesn't half the time. It's odd, and it never used to have that issue.

1 week ago -

Popped the drum off again before my trip out to interior BC to see the family/snowboard and check everything out. The brake shoes had adjusted back to be snug against the drums like they are supposed to, no grease or oil, everything looked good.

Today -
During the trip, I've noticed that it feels like when I fully lock the brakes(I pulled the ABS fuse because that **** increases stopping distances twofold) my rears(or at least one of em) feel like they stay locked about 1 second after I let off the brake pedal. So I went to a snowy parking lot and got it sideways and locked the brakes. Car stayed neutral while locked, but when I let off, I could feel the rears still grabbing and the ass end came out.

Next I got it to about 35km and locked em up while going straight, after I had the feeling the rear was stuck on I turned the car, a turn it normally would have had no issues with and tracked normally. Well, as I suspected the rears were locked and the ass end came out just like if you had yanked on the ebrake. They will stay locked like this until I give it some gas, which seems to unlock the brakes. Except one time where it just stayed locked until I came to a stop and then took off.

I find this odd considering they work perfectly fine right up until I lock the brakes, and don't lock up while parked anymore.

I'm wondering if the actuators or some of the mechanisms themselves are old and sloppy and causing a delayed reaction.

Either way, I definitely don't like that it's doing this 750km from home in the middle of the mountains.

 

[steezemcqueen]

hmm. i have the shoes so i am going to do those anyway but i'll disassemble and clean everything and replace the return springs too.

Thanks for the help

:cheers:

 

[Foosmatrix]

When I had my 96 t4r I had a problem Just like the one described after doing a complete rear brake job and the problem returned I took it to the dealer and found out it was a rear main seal the fluid was leaking on to the brake shoe causing it to swell and occasionally locking the brakes up