Locker or Winch?

[BrianSD_42]

Here's how I see it.


1. Get 4WD
2. Learn how to 4WD, start small, don't wreck it
3. Get a lift
4. Get sliders
5. Get a locker if you don't already have one
6. Then get a winch

 

[TheeMikeB]

Keep in mind I said that they are over rated. I didn't say they aren't useful.

Let me ask you a question. Have your lockers really improved your ability to conquer obstacles, or have they improved your vehicles ability to go over the obstacles?

Let's say you're on a trail and you've attempted to get over an obstacle 2 or 3 times and you decide I need to turn my lockers on. You turn them on and you crawl right over the obstacle. Did the lockers make you a better wheeler? In my opinion, no. They made your vehicle a better wheeler. You didn't do anything differently besides hit a magic button. My point is I think people are too quick to reach for the locker button. These vehicles are so capable open open and I think bad wheelers can use lockers as a crutch so to speak. Through my wheeling experience I've found that if you stop and analyze the obstacle some more, there is more than likely a way to get up it open/open. Out of all the trails I've run I think I've only ever really "needed" a locker once. And it was a front locker, not the rear.

As stated in my first post, I know I'm only one of few that think this way. And I did edit my first post right before you had posted. I think he should go with a locker too.

Yeah I know where you are going with this and I get it. That's why I said I wheeled for years open in several vehicle types before getting a locker.

And while yeah I think its awesome to tackle obstacles open/open or stock etc... It's all about having the right gear for the right terrain period. Sitting there taking 20 minutes to get over something spinning wheels and tearing up the terrain not only doesn't tread lightly but that's when you break stuff too.

Based on what you are saying then I'd say why not wheel with slicks? The tires are giving you an unfair advantage that a well chosen line wouldn't need?

 

[nevada]

I think in reality, a winch should be the FIRST addition.


if you do get a locker, you'll want it to be a selectable for street use.

 

[glenyoshida]

It's all about having the right gear for the right terrain period. Sitting there taking 20 minutes to get over something spinning wheels and tearing up the terrain not only doesn't tread lightly but that's when you break stuff too.

Spoken like someone that knows how to wheel! I dig it!

Based on what you are saying then I'd say why not wheel with slicks? The tires are giving you an unfair advantage that a well chosen line wouldn't need?

That's reading a little much into what he said don't ya think? He's not saying that increasing your rig's capability or even that lockers are bad. I'm pretty sure that Sn0wrunner will get a locker someday too. I get his point, if you are on a limited budget a locker isn't necessarily the best place to make the most difference. For some reason lockers have taken on this nearly silver bullet reputation about them (I don't get that vibe from you!). OP, if you are able to save up the cash then sure, get the lockers, they definitely help, and there are rare times when it allows you to go where others can't. Those times are just really rare.

if you do get a locker, you'll want it to be a selectable for street use.

I agree with Nevada. Save up for a selectable if you do get a locker. You'll probably get used to the nature of the auto locker on the hardball but it can get really dicey on sections where you are pushing the critical limits of off-camber and roll and need to be open-open.

When you get onto the hard core steep and off-camber slopes or even a mild off-camber trail that's covered in packed snow, a locker will tend to send your rear end down slope and change your line. A lot of people don't realize that a locked rear forces one or both tires to break traction in a radius. We frequently have to get on the CB to tell someone to turn off the locker, especially with people that haven't wheeled with a locker much.

We've had several people endup on a very bad line because they left the locker on at an obstacle that they should have run open-open. Several have ended up tearing up terrain because there was no other way to correct the rigs orientation. A few rigs have ended up dangerously close to flopping on some larger obstacles. Most recently 7 rigs in the group went snow bashing and one guy had a spool in the back. He was the only one that had his back end go down slope and it took us a couple hours to rig up for the recovery. If anyone is wondering, no, he wasn't an inexperienced wheeler.

 

[541joseph]

I agree with what a few people have said being 2wd not only causes you to have more damage to your truck but more damage to the trails. I have not always been as light as I could have been but I didn't leave to trenches from spinning to try and get up something in 2wd. Just save up for a 4wd truck.

 

[JohnBill53]

looks like I'll get neither and save for the conversion thanks for the input jeeze haha

 

[glenyoshida]

looks like I'll get neither and save for the conversion thanks for the input jeeze haha

Hhahahaha!

You know you have good friends and people looking out for you when they are telling you not to spend money on something so fun.

Then again maybe we're all doing you a disservice because once you get a 4wd you are going to be really hooked

One of the first things we often do when wheeling with a new person is apologize (jokingly) for helping them spend their money but it's ooooooh so fun!

Embarrassingly I would have nearly had my house paid off by now if I hadn't spent all this money on my rig. I can't say I would do it differently if I had the choice though.

I had a 1994 4runner with a manual transmission, 1" lift, ARB Bull bar, rear lights, sleeping platform, cargo box, laptop mount, GPS hardware, and 142,000 miles on it. It was very clean and as hard as it was to take the loss on it and spend all the time modding up the new rig it was completely worth it. In the end I got a better rig that is more capable and it saved me thousands. I bought my current rig with 49,000 miles on it and it had an auto transmission.

I know that Oklahoma has some good rock crawling down there so if you are in one of those areas consider an auto transmission for your new rig or budget in for dual cases if you go manual. I'm a manual transmission guy for just about everything else other than rock crawling and I understand you are giving something up when you go auto but it's just not possible to get the same kind of control with a manual transmission.

Before you manual guys start flaming me I don't disagree that there are also advantages with manual transmission both are different and depending on your preference one is not necessarily better than the other.

Here's a thread on Manual vs Auto to keep this thread on topic. Post here if you want to debate

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/68663-manual-vs-auto-off-roading.html

Post in the above link if you want to talk more about Manual Transmission vs Auto transmission.

Oh keep in mind that if you do the conversion you are committing yourself to that rig even more. Besides the additional cost it's not exactly comforting to buyers knowing that it's been converted. Assuming you are a stand up guy and you would disclose that information.

 

[krenaud33]

Out of all the trails I've run I think I've only ever really "needed" 4wd once. And it was a front differential, not the rear. blah blah blah.......

Wonder what trails that would be? "Level B" trails in IL?

 

[02SE]

I agree with Nevada. Save up for a selectable if you do get a locker. You'll probably get used to the nature of the auto locker on the hardball but it can get really dicey on sections where you are pushing the critical limits of off-camber and roll and need to be open-open.

When you get onto the hard core steep and off-camber slopes or even a mild off-camber trail that's covered in packed snow, a locker will tend to send your rear end down slope and change your line. A lot of people don't realize that a locked rear forces one or both tires to break traction in a radius. We frequently have to get on the CB to tell someone to turn off the locker, especially with people that haven't wheeled with a locker much.

We've had several people endup on a very bad line because they left the locker on at an obstacle that they should have run open-open. Several have ended up tearing up terrain because there was no other way to correct the rigs orientation. A few rigs have ended up dangerously close to flopping on some larger obstacles. Most recently 7 rigs in the group went snow bashing and one guy had a spool in the back. He was the only one that had his back end go down slope and it took us a couple hours to rig up for the recovery. If anyone is wondering, no, he wasn't an inexperienced wheeler.

I've had a non-selectable Detroit Locker in a vehicle, selectable front and rear Lockers, (along with an ARB Bullbar and winch) on the FZJ80 I had, and the E-locker in my 4runner.

When I had the Detroit locker equipped vehicle, I quickly learned the bad traits of a non-selectable locker. As alluded to in the quote above, a locker in slippery conditions can be a hazard in itself as the locked axle will want to slide sideways to the low side of whatever trail you happen to be on. Even if the low side happens to be a cliff.

I don't care for non-selectable lockers for that reason.

Having a selectable locker(s) means you can use it when conditions are appropriate, and turn it off when they aren't.

Lots of experience will help a driver know when the use of a locker is helpful, and when it isn't.

In regard to the OP's 2wd auto equipped 4Runner, my first mod would be changing the transmission fluid with a quality synthetic ATF, and installing a large transmission cooler. Without the mechanical advantage of low-range gearing, the transmission fluid will quickly get very hot when the 4Runner is pushed in off-road situations, which will dramatically shorten the fluids life, quickly followed by the life of the transmission itself.

 

[the great him]

having had several vehicles with a winch, and one with a locker and no winch(at the time) i would take the winch anyday over the locker. that being said yes the locker provided more fun, and kept the flow of the fun going better ect, but all a locker will serve to do is get you to a point where the only way out is a winch... and without a winch your fun has just come to a halt and now has become a nightmare... (see below) i was out having a fun time with my kids one day up in the snow in my 4runner a few years back when i still had the ARB in the rear of it and before i had my winch. well i got stuck after turning around to leave after i decided the snow was just getting too deep and the conditions were too bad for me to go any further alone without a winch... i was trying to climb a long gradual grade(the road i was on was a old forest service road that ran about 4-500' below the ridge line on a steep slope) there was several factors that contributed to me getting stuck, and lack of wheeling experience or driver abilities was not one of them. i ended up calling a couple of friends to come out and get me out, it only took a small tug from his j**p to get me back on the trail and out of danger but i could have forgone a lot of stress and embarrassment if i had had a winch. 10min winching would have gotten me out and back on my way, my rear locker was doing nothing to help infact it was only hurting the situation -pushing me further and further to the edge and potential serious disaster.

about 30min later the same friend who pulled me out broke his front axle on an unseen obstacle (downed tree) under a huge snow drift, it actually ripped his front right tire and wheel off of his rig. -at that point his winch and the other rigs winch became god-sent tools to help put his rig back together enough to be limped off the trail and back to a waiting trailer 9+ hours later and only about a mile away -both of the other rigs where locked f/r, no amount of lockers in the world would have helped.

imo a winch will get you out of what a locker or lockers got you into. but it does not work the other way around.


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