Looking for suspension upgrade options to hold weight

[jdm-v35]

I currently have a lift using OME 2883 on 1st notch of bilstein 5100 in front and OME 2895e and 5100's in back.

This is the setup I put on at 200 miles when I first got the 4runner. the 2883's were at the bottom notch but I had to put it up 1 notch due to adding a dual battery.

I have since added quite a bit of weight and am possibly looking at upgrade options in the near future.

Weight i have added:
Dual battery system with dual odyssey 34's with 2/0 cabling (~70 lbs)
Warn winch bumper (90 lbs)
HF Badland apex 12k winch (80 lbs)
ARB twin compressor (20 lb)
magnuson on order (supposedly 90 lbs)
tyger side steps (80 lbs)
would like to add armor in the future

on top i do have an SSO rack and carry a smittybilt XL RTT when i go camping(150 lbs but I remove it for daily driving)

What would be a suitable upgrade to help support the weight? Here are some options I am considering:
-just upgrade front springs to OME 2886 or >700lb dobinsons springs if the 5100s can handle it
-6112 with 700lb springs
-fox 2.0 with heavier front springs, if they can be changed

I really don't want to spend this much more but:
-elka 2.5 adjustables
-wait and see if fox releases the performance elite series for 4runner( i saw they just released it for tacoma)

I do need something that will hold up to road salt. Any suggestions or recommendations? Of course most reasonable would be upgrade springs alone, but I am not sure if the shocks can handle it or not.

 

[ads2539]

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but shocks don’t support the vehicle weight, the springs do. The primary purpose of shocks is to control spring and suspension movement.

(I stole the above wording from the Monroe shocks website.)

I would recommend heavier springs, and setting the front shocks on the lowest perch. I was told by a suspension guy at Toytec not to try to get more lift by adding preload. You want lift from taller springs.

 

[jdm-v35]

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but shocks don’t support the vehicle weight, the springs do. The primary purpose of shocks is to control spring and suspension movement.

(I stole the above wording from the Monroe shocks website.)

I would recommend heavier springs, and setting the front shocks on the lowest perch. I was told buy a suspension guy at Toytec not to try to get more lift by adding preload. You want lift from taller springs.

Yes that would be correct, but I don't know if the 5100's have enough dampening control for heavier springs. That may warrant needing to change the whole setup. If the 5100's are sufficient I would change springs and not add more preload. Either way I would like to add 700lb springs, but shock choice may dictate which springs or combo I go with.

 

[Jetboy]

Shocks dampen movement, springs hold up the weight. The two need to be matched - firmer springs generally tend to need firmer shock valving at least on rebound, but the shock valving is also matched to the vehicle weight. Firmer springs are not needed for higher ride height in most cases. Even with more weight unless you're going really crazy with extra load.

With linear rate springs - preload sets the ride height, but it does not change the spring rate. I'm not ware of any coilovers for the 4R with progressive rate coils, but maybe there are some?

So a 500lb spring is 500lb of load per inch of compression regardless of initial ride height or preload. As long as the spring is neither extending to full free length or collapsing to the point of contact between the coils in suspension cycles (both are true for most or all coilovers for the 4Runner) - longer springs in the same shock with the same spring rate or more preload on the collar will have identical function. Just adjust the collar or the spring perch for the height you want. If you max out the perch position and still have too low of ride height - that's when I'd go up to a higher spring rate or to a longer spring.

The softest spring you can use that still fits in the coilover and doesn't end up bricking on full compression will provide the best performance as far as ride quality and maintaining road contact in rough terrain. In our case that tends to be about 550-600lb springs. That's why the Kings come with 550's and Fox come with 600's. If they could fit a 450 0r 500 spring, they'd probably go even lower.

 

[jdm-v35]

Shocks dampen movement, springs hold up the weight. The two need to be matched - firmer springs generally also need firmer shock valving.

With linear rate springs - preload sets the ride height, but it does not change the spring rate. I'm not ware of any coilovers for the 4R with progressive rate coils, but maybe there are some?

So a 500lb spring is 500lb of load per inch of compression regardless of initial ride height or preload. As long as the spring is neither extending to full free length or collapsing to the point of contact between the coils in suspension cycles (both are true for most or all coilovers for the 4Runner) - longer springs in the same shock with the same spring rate or more preload on the collar will have identical function. Just adjust the collar or the spring perch for the height you want.

So in this case does that mean you would recommend that I just goup another notch on the 5100's to make up for the height difference? I have upgraded bumpstops so bottoming out should not be an issue

 

[Jetboy]

So in this case does that mean you would recommend that I just goup another notch on the 5100's to make up for the height difference? I have upgraded bumpstops so bottoming out should not be an issue

That's what I would do. Just go up a notch. Once you get to 500 or 600 lbs of extra weight, the springs might not support the ride height you want. At that point, I'd be looking at firmer springs. But for what you've described - I'd just go up a notch.

If the dampening seems too soft - then it's time to think about firmer shocks. I haven't had 5100's for since I sold my 3rd gen in 2014 that had them, but I recall them being more than firm enough for me.

Biggest bummer for me about the geometry of the 4R is that you basically need an alignment every time you change ride height. It doesn't maintain camber, caster, or toe through the range of travel. Small changes are often okay. But I'd at least check your toe setting after adjusting.

 

[jdm-v35]

That's what I would do. Just go up a notch. Once you get to 500 or 600 lbs of extra weight, the springs might not support the ride height you want. At that point, I'd be looking at firmer springs. But for what you've described - I'd just go up a notch.

If the dampening seems too soft - then it's time to think about firmer shocks. I haven't had 5100's for since I sold my 3rd gen in 2014 that had them, but I recall them being more than firm enough for me.

Biggest bummer for me about the geometry of the 4R is that you basically need an alignment every time you change ride height. It doesn't maintain camber, caster, or toe through the range of travel. Small changes are often okay. But I'd at least check your toe setting after adjusting.

The 2883's are currently up 1 notch on the 5100s and if I recall it was already pretty tight to get the spring compressor out from between the spaces. not sure if it has another notch left in it. The other thing I was worried about is if the spring is too strong would it break the shock if it tops out?

As for the alignment, I have been sitting on dirt king UCA's so i would like to do those at the same time and get an alignment at the same time.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

My Dobinson’s setup is 700 over in the rear and 150-200 over in the front, I believe. Works amazingly well for a family of 5 and a ton of gear.

Here’s my setup:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3672732-post2953.html

Paging [MENTION=148378]Crikeymike[/MENTION] for his input.

 

[Jetboy]

The 2883's are currently up 1 notch on the 5100s and if I recall it was already pretty tight to get the spring compressor out from between the spaces. not sure if it has another notch left in it. The other thing I was worried about is if the spring is too strong would it break the shock if it tops out?

As for the alignment, I have been sitting on dirt king UCA's so i would like to do those at the same time and get an alignment at the same time.

I don't think you'll break the shock unless its repeatedly bouncing off the top-out bumper. If you have more than about 3" of lift - that's a possibility. At that point you likely only have 1 or 2 inches of down travel. And it'll both ride pretty terrible, but also basically vibrate against the internal bumper. It shouldn't be a big issue, but eventually it might wear something out.

As far as room between the coils - that's probably an issue with the spring compressor being thick. I have two sets. My old set wouldn't work on my Fox suspension. I had to buy a different set for them.

These ones can be tricky to get out:

These work better for me in most cases, but they're not quite as safe.

Just for rough math - if the 2883 are about 1.75" lift. And the third setting is about 1.75". So combined that's around 3.5" lift. I would not go to the 2.5" height. 4.25" lift is too much. Even with the weight you'd be at 3.75" lift roughly. Still too much. You might then have a chance of bricking the coil on compression. I don't know for sure, but it seems possible intuitively. The combined effective front spring rate is about 600lb/in with those springs. So if you have around 250lbs of extra weight, you'd have around 3" of net lift. Maybe a bit more at the 1.75" height clip setting with 2883 springs.

 

[jdm-v35]

My Dobinson’s setup is 700 over in the rear and 150-200 over in the front, I believe. Works amazingly well for a family of 5 and a ton of gear.

Here’s my setup:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3672732-post2953.html

Paging [MENTION=148378]Crikeymike[/MENTION] for his input.

Thanks! yes I was looking at C59-354 springs as an alternative if the 5100's can hold them fine. I did PM with Crikeymikey but he did not have a definitive answer on the 5100's either.

 

[jdm-v35]

I don't think you'll break the shock unless its repeatedly bouncing off the top-out bumper. If you have more than about 3" of lift - that's a possibility. At that point you likely only have 1 or 2 inches of down travel. And it'll both ride pretty terrible, but also basically vibrate against the internal bumper. It shouldn't be a big issue, but eventually it might wear something out.

As far as room between the coils - that's probably an issue with the spring compressor being thick. I have two sets. My old set wouldn't work on my Fox suspension. I had to buy a different set for them.

These ones can be tricky to get out:

These work better for me in most cases, but they're not quite as safe.

Just for rough math - if the 2883 are about 1.75" lift. And the third setting is about 1.75". So combined that's around 3.5" lift. I would not go to the 2.5" height. 4.25" lift is too much. Even with the weight you'd be at 3.75" lift roughly. Still too much. You might then have a chance of bricking the coil on compression. I don't know for sure, but it seems possible intuitively. The combined effective front spring rate is about 600lb/in with those springs. So if you have around 250lbs of extra weight, you'd have around 3" of net lift. Maybe a bit more at the 1.75" height clip setting with 2883 springs.

Thanks for the info. Yes I have the spring compressors from the first picture. good to know that those being a tight fit is normal, even with fox etc. I was thinking going with a heavier spring I could not preload it so much. I was debating between Dobinsons C59-354 or OME 2886 if you think the 5100's would handle it fine. That would be the easiest and most cost effective route.

Once the supercharger is installed I believe it will be closer to 325-350 lbs of weight up front. I think the shipping weight for the magnuson is like 90 lbs?

 

[Crikeymike]

Thanks! yes I was looking at C59-354 springs as an alternative if the 5100's can hold them fine. I did PM with Crikeymikey but he did not have a definitive answer on the 5100's either.

Yeah, they work on them, but those 5100's could fail with that strong of a spring and a heavily loaded truck. I used to have a post saved, but not anymore, of someone with some 886's and a clip or 2 up and both struts failed really bad.
Make sure you use brand new clips if you change to them. It's best to only run them at the lowest clip height if you can with the stronger coils.

 

[jdm-v35]

Yeah, they work on them, but those 5100's could fail with that strong of a spring and a heavily loaded truck. I used to have a post saved, but not anymore, of someone with some 886's and a clip or 2 up and both struts failed really bad.
Make sure you use brand new clips if you change to them. It's best to only run them at the lowest clip height if you can with the stronger coils.

Thanks. I may try to look for that post. The other option is for me to do a full suspension upgrade as well.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

Thanks! yes I was looking at C59-354 springs as an alternative if the 5100's can hold them fine. I did PM with Crikeymikey but he did not have a definitive answer on the 5100's either.

Ohhh, i see what you’re trying to do now. Yeah, you might have outgrown your current setup.

Be sure to account that you’ll probably recoup some of your cost by selling your current kit as takeoffs, if you go with plan B(full system replacement). My setup was about $2500 installed, but i had some parts to sell that brought my overall costs down.

 

[jdm-v35]

I don't think you'll break the shock unless its repeatedly bouncing off the top-out bumper. If you have more than about 3" of lift - that's a possibility. At that point you likely only have 1 or 2 inches of down travel. And it'll both ride pretty terrible, but also basically vibrate against the internal bumper. It shouldn't be a big issue, but eventually it might wear something out.

As far as room between the coils - that's probably an issue with the spring compressor being thick. I have two sets. My old set wouldn't work on my Fox suspension. I had to buy a different set for them.

These ones can be tricky to get out:

These work better for me in most cases, but they're not quite as safe.


Just for rough math - if the 2883 are about 1.75" lift. And the third setting is about 1.75". So combined that's around 3.5" lift. I would not go to the 2.5" height. 4.25" lift is too much. Even with the weight you'd be at 3.75" lift roughly. Still too much. You might then have a chance of bricking the coil on compression. I don't know for sure, but it seems possible intuitively. The combined effective front spring rate is about 600lb/in with those springs. So if you have around 250lbs of extra weight, you'd have around 3" of net lift. Maybe a bit more at the 1.75" height clip setting with 2883 springs.

So i am thinking that going up 1 more notch to 1.75 is what i may try first. it looks like with current weight(before supercharger) the frame has about .75" rake compared to the rear which only has 2895e springs which give 2" of lift exactly. which means I currently don't even have 2" of lift up front anymore. I also found according to specs that 2883 springs are almost a full inch shorter than 2884 springs, so going up 1 more notch would pretty much fill that height deficit and should be safe.