Maybe I won't move to Florida...

[Millerad1651]

How is this not murder? You hear a banging on your door at 1:30 am, no one identifies themselves, answer with a gun in your hand (rightfully so) and are killed because you "pointed a gun at sheriff's deputies".

Then come to find out, they are at the wrong house! This is insane.

Andrew Scott: Outrage as police shoot and kill the wrong man in hunt for attempted murder suspect | Mail Online

 

[ndcent]

In related Florida news...

"aww sheit we gawn mawfukin wendees"

Saturday night flash mob takes over Jacksonville Walmart | jacksonville.com

Florida really is America's toilet.

 

[LittleCaesar]

Millerad1651,

If you want a good base topic for your stats project, check to see how many lawsuits have been brought against the sheriff's office in each FL county in a given year. I'll bet the numbers won't be pretty.

 

[Millerad1651]

Millerad1651,

If you want a good base topic for your stats project, check to see how many lawsuits have been brought against the sheriff's office in each FL county in a given year. I'll bet the numbers won't be pretty.

Ha, that's not a bad idea. Although I'm not sure I want to know.

 

[westwind77]

Wow! That is crazy. Hard part is we don't know (and probably never will) know all the fact and details with this situation. Usually I am on the side of the Police because there are just too many stupid people out there that bring it upon themselves (ie pointing a 'toy' gun at a cop as a 'joke'). This situation is just bad from all angles. Every question brings up more questions. Who opens their door with a gun in their hand, even at 1am? Does he have that many enemies, or is crime in his neighborhood really that bad? How quickly did the officers react? Were the officers in full uniform? Who the he!! opens the door at 1am with a gun in their hand without 1st looking through a peep hole or a window to see who it might be? If he did see them in uniform why keep holding the gun?! I'm sure the cop feels horrible for the mistake and has to live with it for the rest of his life. Did the man raise his gun/hands to put them up when he saw who they were and was shot when he suddenly moved? In is FL he was in his right to have the gun and open the door holding it 100% (as long as he had all permits). The lawyers are going to love this one!

 

[RandyDaytona]

answer with a gun in your hand (rightfully so)

I think "rightly so" depends on HOW you answer the door:

Are you looking through a peephole (if there is one) or - failing that - at least trying to crack the door or open it slowly to see who's there? Maybe asking who's there before you open it?

Or are you simply flinging it wide and letting whomever is there see you and draw split-second conclusions from that? A la "you knocked on my door at 1:30 AM so here's what you get..."

If you're doing the latter, not knowing who's there, friend or foe, cop or would-be robber, you're screwing up, period.

Like every other story involving a tragic and/or controversial outcome, I'm sure there's more to what occurred than simply that the guy was "murdered" for answering the door.

 

[Atlanta_man]

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74601


a little more detail and some pictures

 

[NJshadow93]

Doesn't the article say that the victim asked who was there and the cops remained silent, refusing to identify themselves as a strategy? This is truly terrible and IMO, the police are 100% at fault. If you hear pounding on the door at 1:30am and not knowing who it is, why they are there, or why they won't identify themselves, what would you do? Some may call the police, or others may bring some sort of weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat, pepper spray, etc.) Put yourself into the victim's shoes. This was the completely wrong guy, same situation as if the cops came pounding on your door at 1:30am tonight.

 

[westwind77]

If you hear pounding on the door at 1:30am and not knowing who it is, why they are there, or why they won't identify themselves, what would you do? .

Ummm....NOT open the door! That would be the LAST thing I would do! What if they were not the Police and it was some drunk idiot that this guy opened the door and then shot and killed. Then we would have another Zimmerman case. Sure, it was his right to have the gun and he should not feel like he should not be able to open the door but where does the common sense come into play with a situation like this. Who know, maybe he was high on the drugs found in his place, or maybe he was sober as can be, who knows. Tough call, I would see how the police would not want to ID themselves, I would rather have them catch the punks who tried to commit murder, but then again it leads to situations like this, no win.

 

[RandyDaytona]

Ummm....NOT open the door! That would be the LAST thing I would do!

Exactly. There's no reason on earth why someone should respond to "pounding on the door at 1:30 AM" in a confrontational manner, i.e. by opening the door with a gun in their hand.

Put myself "in the victim's shoes?" OK. I stay where I am, safe and behind a locked door...with a firearm, then I call 911. If a situation warrants having a gun, it also warrants avoiding, altogether.

Doesn't the article say that the victim asked who was there and the cops remained silent, refusing to identify themselves as a strategy?

No, it doesn't. It says they didn't announce who they were, but it never says he asked them anything. It simply says he opened the door with a gun in his hand. It's been a long-established and legally-upheld tactic to not routinely announce "POLICE" when knocking on the door of someone who's believed to be dangerous. Nobody - law enforcement officers, especially - are paid enough to walk into a situation like that, totally and utterly reactionary.

Interesting point from the photos: it appears from the angle of the bullets that the door was open pretty far when it was struck, so it doesn't lend a lot of credibility to the sensationalist claim that he was simply "shot through the door," as some are claiming. As I said, there's almost always more to a story.

 

[A/V1]

Wow! Quite interesting takes on how some people would react in the situation. I don't agree with many of them, but interesting none the less.

Somebody comes pounding on my door at 1:30 in the morning, you bet your butt I'm grabbing a pistol or shotgun before I head downstairs to the door. Neither my wife nor I have any friends that will just show up at the door that late without first calling saying something is wrong, and they need to come over. If they weren't able to call, well they would just have to understand the pistol in hand. I don't live in a bad neighborhood either. I see Bentleys, Lambos, Ferraris, & Astons all the time. That's beside the point. It's 1:30 am.
And who the hell is going to call 911 just because someone pounds on the door at 1:30 am? Are you serious? Oh my God

You: "911 I have an emergency... someone is at my door!"
911: "who is it?"
You: "I don't know, I haven't gone to the door yet"

It could actually be someone with a legitimate emergency like a neighbor, etc. Now, I'm not going to just open the door either. I would ask who is there, look through the peep hole, look out the window, etc. However, if I don't see anybody or no one answers, I'M NOT GOING TO OPEN THE DOOR. This could be a problem too, because if the cops were looking for somebody in particular, and want them bad enough, they would probably just knock the door down since you didn't open it. So now, somebody is coming in your house, and you are still in the same situation, cops shoot you dead because you were legally holding a firearm in your own home, & they will probably only get a slap on the wrist.

I highly doubt they would wait around outside eating their doughnuts for you to call 911 to report someone out there, or verify who they are. That's a nice dream world some of you live in. As soon as they hear you moving around inside, I would assume they are going in soon after regardless.

Oops! Wrong house. So sorry.

 

[RandyDaytona]

And who the hell is going to call 911 just because someone pounds on the door at 1:30 am? Are you serious? Oh my God

Calling 911 was meant to include simply calling the police and reporting it. I assumed people would be smart enough to figure that out.

In any case, it's better than running down there with a gun in your hand like an idiot to confront a completely unknown threat. People who think an altercation with a would-be bad guy is always going to end favorably simply because you happen to have a gun watch wayyyyy too much TV.

I highly doubt they would wait around outside eating their doughnuts for you to call 911 to report someone out there, or verify who they are.

We don't "wait around" anyway - we have other things to do, like helping OTHER people, as well. But nice 70's stereotype. It shows everyone where your predisposition lies.

We also don't just "knock down" doors without probable cause or a warrant. You might want to educate yourself on the laws of your country before you take to bashing the people who enforce them.

 

[BrianSD_42]

The laws and policies vary strongly across state and county lines throughout the US.

The way I see it, some police departments do much higher quality work then some others and of course recruit at different levels. For example in California the CHP (highway patrol) is held in pretty high regard and often staffed by ex military due to generous pension rules for vets. I imagine they are recruiting better candidates than the police dept in Sanford FL.

 

[BrianSD_42]

68 year old marine kills in his own home by Police who were called by mistake

Link ---> Killed at Home: White Plains, NY Police Called Out on Medical Alert Shoot Dead Black Veteran, 68

As the Trayvon Martin case draws national attention, we look at another fatal shooting of an African-American male that has received far less scrutiny. Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., a 68-year-old African-American Marine veteran, was fatally shot in November by White Plains, NY, police who responded to a false alarm from his medical alert pendant. The officers broke down Chamberlain’s door, tasered him, and then shot him dead. Audio of the entire incident was recorded by the medical alert device in Chamberlain’s apartment. We’re joined by family attorneys and Chamberlain’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain Jr., who struggles through tears to recount his father’s final moments, including the way police officers mocked his father’s past as a marine. "For them to look at my father that way, (with) no regard for his life, every morning I think about it," he says. ........

<iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed/story/2012/3/29/killed_at_home_white_plains_ny" frameborder="0"></iframe>

.

 

[rebelbowtie]

This happens all over the country in counties and cities in every state. It proves nothing except even people who are trained to do such thing can be overzealous and make mistakes. It's a tragedy though when that mistake cost and innocent person their lives. all the examples in this thread sound very fishy from both accounts.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I understand why they shot the guy in his own doorway with a gun. The courts have already ruled that LEOs are justified in such a situation. It is a tragedy that it played out that way.

If you all click the link I posted, in that story the victim wasn't armed and was shot with a pistol after being held down and tased.

.

 

[rebelbowtie]

I understand why they shot the guy in his own doorway with a gun. The courts have already ruled that LEOs are justified in such a situation. It is a tragedy that it played out that way.

If you all click the link I posted, in that story the victim wasn't armed and was shot with a pistol after being held down and tased.

.

I read that article, I don't see how if any of that is true the police acted the way they did. Unless they were just extremely prejudice against blacks and wanted to kill someone. But that makes them no different than the other messed up individuals out there, badge or no badge.

 

[BrianSD_42]

With regards to the NY case linked above,

I think it was just a situation that spiraled out of control. I also read that the officer who pulled the trigger is under investigation for multiple instances of excessive force.

The DA held a grand jury and only put up the charge of murder 2 which of course the GJ did not indite on. The family is suing and say that if the DA had charged him with lesser charges they would have stuck, basically they feel the city purposefully only charged him with M2 so he would be cleared.

I don't know the whole story of course but on this one there is a lot of evidence including two separate audio recordings of inside the apt.

.

 

[RandyDaytona]

The laws and policies vary strongly across state and county lines throughout the US.

The way I see it, some police departments do much higher quality work then some others and of course recruit at different levels. For example in California the CHP (highway patrol) is held in pretty high regard and often staffed by ex military due to generous pension rules for vets. I imagine they are recruiting better candidates than the police dept in Sanford FL.

Regardless of where they're located or the caliber of candidate they hire, every law enforcement agency in the country is limited by the Constitution and protections against unreasonable search and seizure. That was my point in regards to the statement that police simply go around "kicking in doors" for no apparent reason. And again, anyone who thinks we can do that needs to educate themselves.

As far as the link you posted, it's good to be careful what source you get your news from. Other, more mainstream media outlets like the NY Times (NOT some so-called "independent" source which is obviously attempting to paint any shooting of a black male as race-motivated) talk about the guy having a knife and being shot because he was about to stab one officer. Your link mentions none of that. It also doesn't mention the families claim that no knife existed, even though there's video of what certainly appears to be one.

Tragic events occur every day, to be sure. But as I already said, there's a lot more information about most incidents than what the media usually gives us. It's also a lot different being in the position of the guy (or gal) who has to enforce the law and has a split second to decide what to do than it is to armchair-quarterback this stuff from behind a computer, with the apparent luxury of calling officers "murderers" without ever having had to walk a mile in their shoes.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I pretty much agree with you and quality of sources is a whole other topic.