Mud, sand, snow multi Trac dumb question of the day

[Jeremy556]

I spent like 20 minutes gimping around my parking lot at work. So you have to go into 4LO to get it into MTS, then if you're in the 1st setting, you're able to go back into 4HI and keep MTS on. If you're in 4LO and put it in Mogul or something, it deactivates when you shift into 4HI

On mine, at least, you can press the on/off button in 4hi. If you are stopped (or nearly stopped), and the switch was already in position 1, it works, if the switch is somewhere else, it tells you to "stop, shift into 4lo, etc" but if you turn to position 1, it works in 4hi.

 

[Jeremy556]

ATRAC does that, but I'm still not seeing how MTS keeps you from getting stuck. If you can explain it, I'll quickly agree. So far, nobody has ever been able to, thus it is a gimmick to me.

Other than making ABS and TRAC less intrusive in 4HI, it doesn't do anything that ATRAC doesn't do in 4lo. Yes, it's mostly a gimmick.

 

[DocAdams]

On mine, at least, you can press the on/off button in 4hi. If you are stopped (or nearly stopped), and the switch was already in position 1, it works, if the switch is somewhere else, it tells you to "stop, shift into 4lo, etc" but if you turn to position 1, it works in 4hi.

Yeah, even if I'm stopped and it's in 4HI, it still tells me to put it in 4LO

 

[Kotrin]

Yeah, even if I'm stopped and it's in 4HI, it still tells me to put it in 4LO

Yeah mine says the same thing when I try everything. I'll give it another try and see if I can get it to work in 4HI...

 

[96r50]

While that message is flashing just turn the knob counter clockwise until the little indicator light is at the leftmost position. That's the mud/sand/dirt setting which works in 4HI.

 

[1engineer]

When I had my TE I used it once...to try it out. DAC I used several times on short mud hills and it seemed to work fine.

My thoughts? It works well but if you can drive and have ATRAC you probably won't need it.

 

[wfo9]

When I had my TE I used it once...to try it out. DAC I used several times on short mud hills and it seemed to work fine.

My thoughts? It works well but if you can drive and have ATRAC you probably won't need it.

Honestly, my experience level offroad in a full size is pretty limited. Probably more than many on here, but I still consider myself a newb. However, I have many years of experience offroad on two wheeled contraptions of all types in just about every type of terrain imaginable. I've got the aches and pains to prove it ;-)

Although two and 4 wheels are totally different animals. I feel one thing is very much the same and that is that the feel of the controls and the vehicle need to become second nature to the rider/driver. As an example, many people jump on an enduro bike and just sit and throttle through obstacles, never really learning proper bike control (or body bike separation), however if you put that same person on a trials bike and make them ride some really tight technical stuff for a few months, they will become masters of the controls and will suddenly be able to ride the big bike in a way more controlled manner. Even though the big bike is a big heavy giant compared to a trials bike, they can suddenly make it do things they never thought possible, without having to really think about it.

It does not translate directly to 4 wheels, but the general thrust is the same. You need to know exactly what the controls will do in a very predictable manner to drive that big lumbering giant properly. Repetition in varying conditions will eventually make it second nature. Throwing in variables like how responsive the throttle or brakes are seems like a horrible idea. I can get tuning it a little for your preferences, but after that, stick with one thing until it just feels natural all the time. I think simple is way better in this case.

ATRAC is cool because it does something that the standard controls provided can't do. I want any other traction aids more or less out of the way. I understand that the computer can do some things better than the driver, but in the case of real offroading I don't think you want it screwing with the controls. Repeatable and predictable is what every experienced wheeler is going to eventually land on.

 

[Jetboy]

Crawl Control does this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJkF99GDz14 I do not believe anyone can modulate the throttle fast enough to mimic what crawl control does in this situation with the hardware of the 4runner. In a rock crawler, sure - 1st gear and 100:1 gear reduction - you can do that. In my 4runner with an automatic and only a 2.7:1 transfer case - no way. ( Of Course given the option, I'll take a 4.7:1 transfer case over crawl control, but that's not an option from Toyota - and I'll probably install one at some point anyway when I start doing more hardcore mods. This is a no-brainer and I'm pretty disappointed Toyota didn't offer lower transfer case gears in the Trail edition.)

MTS as far as I can tell just adjusts the aggressiveness of the traction control - which I'd guess is really adjusting the brake line pressure with all else the same. That's the simple way to engineer it. It might help a little. But not as much as adding a front locker would.

 

[wfo9]

I don't know that I agree about crawl control. Maybe it is useful in a few unique situations, I can't imagine actually using it myself. I like having the controls.

Sand would be the last place that I would use it. It got out there in the video because of the atrac (which I guess is a side effect of the crawl control).

 

[Jetboy]

I don't know that I agree about crawl control. Maybe it is useful in a few unique situations, I can't imagine actually using it myself. I like having the controls.

Sand would be the last place that I would use it. It got out there in the video because of the atrac (which I guess is a side effect of the crawl control).

It has been my experience with a variety of heavily modified offroad trucks and land cruisers - especially in snow where the difference between static and kinetic friction is so great. It's very hard to build an automatic that will perform well in deep snow. In fact I've never seen one and I've been the trail master of the biggest offroad club in Montana - where we did a lot of snow wheeling. That of course doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I've never seen it.

I'll keep an open mind though. Can you find anyone anywhere who can do the same with an automatic transmission in a stock vehicle - even with front and rear lockers - and a link to a youtube video? I simply think that a driver cannot modulate tire rotational speed that low without either very low gearing or electronic help - and the rotational speed being very low is critical to reaching the maximum static friction thereby allowing the vehicle to extricate its self. I'm always looking for new techniques, so I'd love to see some alternative method.

 

[Ammomac]

my '13 FJ had the CRAWL on it - got to learn about and use it during last years FJ Summit. I was the only rig in our line to have it although there was also a Lexus 470 that had the DAC.

I could go down OR up obstacles at a much more controlled. even, and smooth pace than those without. Its honestly like cheating. Coming down hill folks behind would have to come to a complete stop and wait for me as they simply could not go nearly as slow as I could.

I'm not a big fan of electronic gadgets as it were, but I'm a believer in this 4wd system that toyota has. Smoother means less wear and tear on the truck, passengers, and gear; more enjoyment for everyone in the truck, and less damage on the environment.

when I decided to trade for a 4runner, CRAWL was mandatory; everything else is gravy ;-)

 

[wfo9]

It has been my experience with a variety of heavily modified offroad trucks and land cruisers - especially in snow where the difference between static and kinetic friction is so great. It's very hard to build an automatic that will perform well in deep snow. In fact I've never seen one and I've been the trail master of the biggest offroad club in Montana - where we did a lot of snow wheeling. That of course doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I've never seen it.

I'll keep an open mind though. Can you find anyone anywhere who can do the same with an automatic transmission in a stock vehicle - even with front and rear lockers - and a link to a youtube video? I simply think that a driver cannot modulate tire rotational speed that low without either very low gearing or electronic help - and the rotational speed being very low is critical to reaching the maximum static friction thereby allowing the vehicle to extricate its self. I'm always looking for new techniques, so I'd love to see some alternative method.

Hold on, you are throwing out a lot of different concepts here. Let me see if I follow.

Crawl control was designed to maintain a steady speed so the driver never touches the brakes or the throttle (just the steering). Basically, 4 LO cruise control, but with braking, right? Idea being to focus on steering and the let the computer maintain a steady wheel speed.

First off, I have 0 experience wheeling in the snow. But I can grasp the concept of the high delta between static and kinetic friction in deep snow.

How would crawl control be useful there? I mean by definition you would need to maintain momentum and the vehicle has no way to sense actual ground speed (only wheel speed). So direct control of the throttle seems critical to not getting stuck in the first place.

Now once stuck, I guess I can see it marginally useful to get out, but why is an automatic so bad. Because of the torque converter? Or because of the typical gear ratio?

You mention low wheel speed being critical for maximum static friction, but once any movement takes place you are out of static. The kinetic coefficient will be all over the place with speed as the surface is dug up. Also depends on the tires as some will shed with a little speed. So many variables that it seems impossible to make a blanket statement that low wheel speed is critical for maximum traction to get unstuck.

I'm not trying to argue. I just see many different factors at play. Offroad snow is very much a wild card in general to me. It hides so much from the driver. And like I said, I have almost no experience in it. Just played around up in the mountains in the summer when there are still a few fields left.

 

[wfo9]

my '13 FJ had the CRAWL on it - got to learn about and use it during last years FJ Summit. I was the only rig in our line to have it although there was also a Lexus 470 that had the DAC.

I could go down OR up obstacles at a much more controlled. even, and smooth pace than those without. Its honestly like cheating. Coming down hill folks behind would have to come to a complete stop and wait for me as they simply could not go nearly as slow as I could.

I'm not a big fan of electronic gadgets as it were, but I'm a believer in this 4wd system that toyota has. Smoother means less wear and tear on the truck, passengers, and gear; more enjoyment for everyone in the truck, and less damage on the environment.

when I decided to trade for a 4runner, CRAWL was mandatory; everything else is gravy ;-)

Not sure sure about wear and tear. Sounds horrible when it is on to me. I know most of that is the ABS pump, but yuk. I also find it interesting that everyone I have met in person who has it (that really wheels the crap out of their rig) says they used it when they first got it and have never touched it since.

If you are really worried about being smooth, try being fully locked with better gearing.

 

[Ammomac]

I hear where you're coming from and would be singing the same song if we were talking motorcycles. ;-) I HATE all the new electronic traction control, active suspension, ABS, etc. But they all come with that crap now, I want to have the feel and control, not some stupid puter. I've been riding a long time and feel like I'm proficient and safe. Hate to give up that control

however...

I have limited wheeling experience - some mudd'n years ago but zero crawling type stuff. I followed built rigs over some pretty rough stuff. The difference that I could see was the way the vehicle came down stuff. Zero dropping and lurching at a much lower speed than possible in 4lo alone regardless who's rig it was.

I would think someone with a ton of experience would feel the same as I do about giving up that control or feel, but for a noob it allowed me to simply pick a good line and radio station and follow the others with out the bumping and scraping; the need to 'bump' over things, etc.

I think this tech is pretty amazing just as all the new bike tech thats coming out is amazing. However, I'll stick with my old school scooters! ;-)

 

[Jeremy556]

I use CRAWL very rarely. Most of the time, I can do the same thing with 2 foot driving, without the noise and just let off the brake when I want to go a bit faster. There have been a few situations where CRAWL was the only thing that got me through, where even lockers wouldn't do it. All were uphill in deep snow.

 

[Land_Shark]

ATRAC does that, but I'm still not seeing how MTS keeps you from getting stuck. If you can explain it, I'll quickly agree. So far, nobody has ever been able to, thus it is a gimmick to me.

MTS is basically selectable levels of ATRAC intrusiveness. The Mogul setting is closest to using the ATRAC button. The first setting is far more forgiving in terms of wheel spin and doesn't engage ABS until after a second or so. I've heard ATRAC is great for rock crawling, but on some dry, dirt, steep terrain, I've used the other settings and it worked great where ATRAC would have been overkill. ATRAC is very intrusive and immediate, by design, which is why so many love it, myself included. I don't think it's a gimmick - I've used it successfully on trails where it only had to kick in here and there, when ATRAC would have been kicking in all the time and possible overheating the brakes. My suggestion is to get out and test the different levels of reaction time for the various settings if you have the place/time.

To me, the only gimmicky thing about it is the descriptors for the different "terrains". (reminds me of those stupid knobs in GC's, and no, not the drivers). Instead of mud/dirt, rock, moguls, etc, they should have put ATRAC - 1, 2, 3 and 4. 4 being full effect.

 

[CSix]

Lots said about Crawl Control... Here's my take... I built up a CJ7 for Moab... ARB/Detroit lockers, fuel injection and countless other mods... basically brute force and ignorance. With all the wheeling I've done, there are many stretches that are long, boring, bumpy and a form of cruise control would be nice. There were several products out at the time but I thought of an idea... I used one of my bicycles indexed shifters mounted to the CJ's Stick... connected to the throttle. It was great to have a primitive form of cruise control. It only worked at low idle... Voila... my own form of 4x4 cruise control. I have used the 4Runner's crawl control in a similar manner. It's great to have options like Atrac, Crawl, Multi terrain select and the ability to turn it all off...

That said, all the gizmos may not be able to fix a bad line on a rough trail.

Happy New Year!

 

[wfo9]

Sounds like crawl may be useful in deep snow. I would like to see it work in deep snow myself someday.

I like the description of MTS being ATRAC tune 1 - 4.... Standard ATRAC being the most aggressive mode, although I have seen Toyota marketing info saying it impacts throttle response.

Another thing to consider is what happens to ATRAC.. as you increase tire size. I've heard FJ guys say it becomes much less effective on 35s. To the point where it becomes mostly useless.

One question for those with a trail. When can the rear e-locker be used. I thought I remember something about it not working with atrac over a certain speed....Does that include the MTS settings?

Can it be activated in 2wd. I like doing that on mine. It's fun!

Does crawl work in conjunction with all the other stuff (e-locker, MTS. ATRAC) or does it do its own thing in isolation.

 

[Intruder]

Sounds like crawl may be useful in deep snow.

It is not.

 

[wfo9]

It is not.

My response was based on what others stated in this thread. I would have thought not.