"New Grease for the Solid axle"

OK, let me get this straight as my head hurts like many others. This pertains to 15-20 year old T4R's. Toyota sales is engaged in a conspiracy to sell the wrong grease even though Toyata Manufacturing used the right grease orginally.

What does Toyota Sales get out of this conspiracy? It isn't like anyone who owns these vehicles is going to a Toyota dealership to get the work done and would bet most aren't even buying the grease from Toyota. I get where you are coming from in the fact that there is better grease to use than what Toyota is saying to use but I don't see a vast conspiracy. If there is this conspiracy, what is Toyota getting out of it?

You would help your case/sales much more if you just said, "hey everyone, my grease is much better than what Toyota says to use and here is why". Instead you allege conspiracies and frankly you come off like a nut job. Plenty of after market companies make a good living by selling products that are better that what Toyota originally supplied. You don't see OME screaming that their suspensions kits are much better because Toyota is engaged in a conspiracy to sell you a suspension that is substandard.
 
It's a great country !
where people have this much time and passion on their hands...

and the intense desire to be RIGHT and make sure you know that they are
 
Hurting heads,

OK, let me get this straight as my head hurts like many others. This pertains to 15-20 year old T4R's. Toyota sales is engaged in a conspiracy to sell the wrong grease even though Toyata Manufacturing used the right grease orginally.

What does Toyota Sales get out of this conspiracy? It isn't like anyone who owns these vehicles is going to a Toyota dealership to get the work done and would bet most aren't even buying the grease from Toyota. I get where you are coming from in the fact that there is better grease to use than what Toyota is saying to use but I don't see a vast conspiracy. If there is this conspiracy, what is Toyota getting out of it?

You would help your case/sales much more if you just said, "hey everyone, my grease is much better than what Toyota says to use and here is why". Instead you allege conspiracies and frankly you come off like a nut job. Plenty of after market companies make a good living by selling products that are better that what Toyota originally supplied. You don't see OME screaming that their suspensions kits are much better because Toyota is engaged in a conspiracy to sell you a suspension that is substandard.

Chris,

As Far as it being a great grease conspiracy I never looked @ it like that, I always looked @ it as just a bunch of BS, but if you would like to consider it As a great grease conspiracy than so be it,

This grease is much better that what Toyota sales says to use because it is what Toyota production uses, Now this brings me to Theory # 3

You are correct with the fact that the dealerships may or may not do a whole bunch of these axle repairs, And there are plenty of Old School Mechanic shops that do repair these axles and use a "Correct Fluid" of varying degrees of correctness, There are posts from folks indicating they mix gear oil and CV grease to replicate the viscosity of the factory type lube,

So Theory #3 is while sure the aftermarket is generally the major outlet for these parts, services, is that sure there is plenty of money to be made, Take for instance Aftermarket parts reptile Kurt Williams who in the same thread posted of a "Correct Fluid" grease that lasts for 30 years, and #2 lithium as spec by Toyota sales that lasts 5-10

Okay lets just look @ the seal kit cost of 100 bucks, over the period of 30 years that means a additional 2 seal kits, even if you would dare to stretch the service interval to 10 years on this axle (with a #2 Oxidizing grease), so being very conservative here,

That is a additional 200 bucks in the pocket, Not to mention bearings that often can be re used when using the correct factory type lubrication even after even more than a 30 year run as in the case of that Old Dog Rig,

Now I am also aware of the fact that this is not exclusive to Toyota, Domestically I have run into the exact same thing, The first axle of this design I repaired in a Ford, Like Rix I turned to the parts or sales dept for a lubrication recommendation, being the thing had a fill plug on it I wondered if I should fill it with a fluid type lube,

The answer I received was some fact and a mostly fiction, Obfuscation, I was told Originally 80-90W oil was used but since the ball rusts and pits it would be a waste of time and to just use a #2 grease, OKAY that made enough sense @ the time so did that, Then 5 years later this Toyota shows up with the semi fluid adhesive self leveling goop, This made a heck of a lot more sense then a #2 grease that does not self level, will not splash lubricate the upper bearing, And sure enough it was only then as the mechanic did I crack the book and begin to Read rather than take the easy route and just ask the parts guy , Then I read that the factory did not use a 80-90 W oil, but a "Short Fiber grease" or a "Viscous lube" or a proper Fluid lube,

So I tracked this stuff down, after the Toyota dealership here locally told me it was "Private" and went ahead and took it and showed it to the parts rep, He said Oh yeah know all about that stuff, seen it all the time when I worked @ the wrecking yard back in the day, Well do you want to put this on the shelf ? Hell no, get that out of here !

Wow, well his job is to sell parts and that there goop would cut into 2/3 of his sales,

So that is Theory #3 hope that dont hurt your head, and I tried to type it in a better Format,
 
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Yep

It's a great country !
where people have this much time and passion on their hands...

and the intense desire to be RIGHT and make sure you know that they are

Yes it is called Capitalism , You see like in early posts folks mention about these Toyota rigs lasting longer with less fixin than a GM rig, Well you guys are "Masters of the Obvious" and get this longer lasting Toyota rigs so you can drive and not fix, and save money in the long run,

So lots of folks figered this out and GM sales tanked, and they went broke,
But instead of just getting out of the way and a new better company emerging they where rewarded because of being just to big to fail, They where bailed out by the Govt, So now GM is Govt Motors, in direct competition with Toyota, sales or production in this case,

So what do you do ? Well your in control of the media So Rail Road Toyota with rigs freeking out and going WOT throttle and folks crashing and burning and dying, Spook folks, scare em, with propaganda, easy enough, and sell more of Your GM rigs,

This is not capitalism but socialism, and if we want to keep this country great better wise up,

Grease is not interesting,
 
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Sign it

C'mon frank.
post it.

Sign the disclosure agreement !

I did not waste all this time re educating you Rixxer,

Months, This is intellectual property, I see complaining of head hurting, Well let me tell you hours of raking my poor little grease monkey brain to bring you to this point,
Suffered a multitude of insults, slanderous attacks, and not just going to disclose intellectual property ,

Sign it, then we will talk,
 
You HAVE wasted your time, beings you're wrong.

Post it up.
That's all you have to do.
Post it up, and it all ends shorlty thereafter.
 
The Compendium

You HAVE wasted your time, beings you're wrong.

Post it up.
That's all you have to do.
Post it up, and it all ends shorlty thereafter.

Well Rixxer Post what ? I have been abundantly clear this is a semi fluid grease,

For the steering axle used in production, that you have Identified as axle seal failure,

You have seen a sample, so you know what it is, that is all I can do is just show you until you sign a non disclosure contract,

It is a semi fluid grease viewed by Toyota sales to be outdated, you know this,
So outdated is this grease that they let you think it is axle seal failure, Yes outdated for sure,

So Rixxer if you want to know what it is, #1 Step out of the cool aid line, recognize the fact that it is used in production and not seal failure,

Then it is over ,

Rixxer way back on NWW you had the response that I was looking for,

Why the hell would they lie in their own GD manuals ?

Well only have the 3 theories so far,

Why, the hell would they allow you to think this is axle seal failure ?
These are questions that I can only speculate, or theorize , Your in the middle of it, You tell me,
 
Trucking Industry,

So a little more head hurting here, the trucking industry is a good resource for information because they have a lot to gain with the Ideal wheel hub lube,

Its all over the place ranging from a synthetic 50 W to a #2 grease,

Oh well here is some reading while Rixxer ponders if he is going to step up and sign the dotted line and walk away from the Toyota sales line,

Good info here on the amount to fill, always been somewhere between 1/4 and half way for me in a conventional wheel hub ,

WHEEL-END LUBE: NOT SO SIMPLE - by Rolf Lockwood
12/12/2005


From the July/August 1999 issue.

The business of keeping the brakes dry and the wheels attached is a challenge, for sure, but some fleets say it's routine, no matter which seal or bearing lube you use. You just have to keep things clean during installation, fill the hub with lube properly, and drive the new seal in accurately. For some maintenance shops, there's just no reason to alter the tradition of using a gear-oil lubricant, commonly an 80W90 grade.

But for many others it's been a different story altogether.

Many fleets have shifted away from oil as their wheel-end lubricant of choice toward a higher-viscosity semi-fluid grease, both mineral-based and synthetic. And many of them are happy to be done with the leakage issues that oil seemed to create. Some say leakage is gone entirely and wheel-end failures are down by 75% or more.

NEW FAILURES Fleets began switching from oil to semi-fluid grease lubricants with a vengeance in about 1995, though some of those greases have been on the market since 1987. At a meeting of The Technology & Maintenance Council (TMC) of the American Trucking Associations several years ago, one carrier's maintenance chief described his success with the switch, and that effectively lifted the flood gates. Tired of dealing with leaking wheel seals, many others followed his cue.

As well as ending leakage, these semi-fluid greases were also said to offer longer seal life, superior suitability to temperature extremes (which is open to debate, some say), extended service intervals (also open to debate), and of course elimination of brake-shoe contamination. But they also add a new twist.

"With an inadequate amount of semi-fluid lube, we began to see a lot of bearing failures on the tapered-spindle designs,” explains Mark Wagner, hub product manager at Consolidated Metco Inc. in Portland, Ore., “because the small end would be starved of lubricant.

“So this is the issue. Now that we have converted a lot of people to semi-fluid lube, they're experiencing a significant number of more serious types of failure.

"The failure mode has changed. The failure mode is no longer oil leaking from a seal; the failure mode will be a bearing that fails, and this difference has been difficult for people to live with.”

Some fleets using semi-fluid grease have seen early failures -- including wheel-offs -- on trailer axles in just a few hundred clicks or as far out as 200,000. They might find rust on the outer end of the axle spindle, on the bearing-adjustment nuts, and even on the outer bearing itself. There may be evidence of excessive pressure and moisture in the hub assembly, the latter often caused by high-pressure washing of the wheel-end components. There have been reports of sufficient rusting or excessive heat, or both, to cause the elements of the outer bearing to seize together Here's how Rolf VanderZwaag, maintenance and technical advisor to the Ontario Trucking Association, summarized the situation for us last year:

"In many of the reported failures there are indicators of poor lubrication of the outer bearing in a tapered-spindle application. This is evidenced by heat discoloration of the bearing elements and spinning of the inner bearing race or the bearing cup in their respective journals.

"Spindles that use inner and outer bearings of the same dimension have been identified as not being prone to failures associated with the use of semi-fluid lubricants.

You can spot lube contamination, VanderZwaag says, especially outside of the outer bearing, by looking for discoloration of the lubricant or a change in its consistency. You might also see changes in the appearance of the inner surfaces of aluminum hubcaps.

SEMI-FLUID FILLS There are two key issues with the grease option, says Nicolas Samman of Petro-Canada Lubricants in Mississauga, Ont. One is contamination by the entry of water and dirt through the hubcap vent, with the result that rust and debris migrate to the outer bearing and bring failure.

The other issue, Samman says, and it’s the more critical one, is confusion as to what constitutes the correct fill level. How much is enough? And how do you know how much lube is in there?

"Many of the problems involved with failures on the road today are related to the process of installing lubes into the system," agrees Con Met's Wagner. "Especially the semi-fluids, where it's very difficult to monitor the amount you've installed. And it's also important to know where it is in the hub. You have some segregation of areas in the hub that can mean the outer bearing is blocked off from the center portion of the hub, or the grease cavity as we call it. And then there's a region near the seal. A semi-fluid lube, when it's hot, can migrate between these bearings but it doesn't do so readily.

"I've seen many bearings that have a lower level of fill, where the hubcap remains completely dry inside, so no lube is ever getting out there.”

Recommended fill levels usually refer to percentage of fill, but that can be tough to communicate to service personnel who are used to dealing with static fill-level indicators like those used for oil. And if fill levels are to be determined as a percentage of the volume of space within the hub, then technicians need to know more. If they don't know the cavity's volume, then they'll either work blind or ask, reasonably, "percentage of what?"

"A fill-quantity recommendation would be more useful, either by weight or by volume, but this often requires taking into account a residual quantity of lubricant remaining in the hub," says VanderZwaag.

Mobil's recommendation had been a 30% fill, but that’s changed to 40%-50% with tapered bearings. TMC's advice, part of Recommended Practice #631, is 50%.

There's another view on the fill question, and it's an interesting one, from Jon Cox, vice president of product engineering at Stemco Inc. in Longview, Tx. He doesn’t necessarily agree that the culprit is the fill level.

"That’s what we've been told by the industry," Cox says. "But what I have not seen, as an engineer, is a complete and thorough root-cause analysis to find out if that really is the root cause. I'm not sure if it is. There are people out there who say they filled their hubs appropriately and they still had burn-up issues.

"So the question that I have is, do we really know what happens as far as wheel-end burn-ups are concerned, or are we just blaming it on the trailer manufacturers?"

At this point, there's no answer to his question.

WHICH LUBRICANT? Nor is there a totally straightforward answer to the question as to which lubricant is best suited to wheel-end duty. There are three basic choices: an oil, almost always an SAE 50 synthetic transmission fluid; a semi-fluid grease, either synthetic or mineral-based; or a #2 grade grease, which is similar to chassis lube.

We haven't discussed the latter solid grease, but there are those who consider it the optimum wheel-end lube in some situations. The chief benefit is that it stays put, won't migrate away from the bearings, and it certainly won't leak. But it demands a very different fill procedure, and its cold-weather performance demands careful spec'ing approach because some such greases will not bleed oil readily at low temperatures.

The downside with semi-fluids, as we've covered, concerns fill and inspection procedures for the most part, but they’ll never be as easy to deal with as oil. And as lubricant engineer Bob Tanis of Henkel Lubricant Technologies in Cincinnati, Oh., points out, if semi-fluid lubes demand as much installation and inspection rigor as seems to be the case, then their initial low maintenance promise is in question. Tanis chaired TMC’s RP 631 Task Force.

In fact, there’s no broad agreement that any one lube is the best option. Samman says semi-fluids are “the more forgiving lubricants,” but the trend toward their use was a matter of seal reliability, not an issue with oil itself. And now that a great deal of development work has led to improved seal technology, oil may be poised to make a comeback. Some say it's the best choice but others, including Wagner, disagree. His vote goes to grease, with qualifications (see below).

Tanis has another theory on the switch to semi-fluids. "I think the reason that grease was given any credence at all was the fact that the seal manufacturers were under the very strong opinion that truckers would not pay for a better seal," he says. "Really, they took a step back in lubrication technology by 30 years. In the 1950s, they came out of grease and went to an oil and thought it was wonderful. Now we're saying 'grease is better?' I guess I still have a question about that."

So does Jon Cox of Stemco, though he won't make specific recommendations.

"I believe the simplest, most cost-effective lubricating means is still oil," he says. "It's very easy to install, and most importantly it's verifiable. That is becoming more and more an issue out there. As people go to higher-viscosity lubricants, now they find they have a lack of confidence as to whether or not they have enough in there.

"But our products are designed to work with any type of lubricant," he adds. "If the fleet wants to use lubricant 'A' versus lubricant 'B' or lubricant 'C', we need to seal it reliably, regardless of its consistency.

"From about 1995, we had significant growth in the use of semi-fluid lubricants, but I personally think that the growth has stopped. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that it appears that other componentry such as the seals, and the installation practices, are now of a quality that people no longer need to use a more expensive, more exotic lubricant."

It may be, however, a matter of choosing the right horse for the course.

"We don't think there's one lubricant for everybody," says Mark Wagner. "To choose the optimum lube, you have to look at your maintenance and service environment, also at your application. There are cases where you'd want to have the flag, the warning of leaking oil, to try to minimize any further damage."

Wagner also points out that severe-duty situations lend themselves to the use of oil and simpler seal technology because there's already a lot of maintenance being done and long seal life isn't a factor.

Both he and Cox talk about the prospect of million-mile seals, but while Wagner figures that grease technology will be necessary in that case, Cox says it isn't yet obvious. Regardless of the lube to be used, that 'dream seal' isn't far away.

"I think we're going to continue to see new innovations in the wheel end as the industry tries to benchmark up to that million-mile mark," says Cox.

"We hope to get there in about two years."

THE UNITIZED OPTION The ultimate solution to the problem of leaking seals, in some eyes, is a pre-packaged or unitized hub. The hub, seal, lubricant, and bearings are assembled together as a single unit which is set into the axle spindle, eliminating the need for bearing adjustment, seal installation, and subsequent lubrication.

Con Met, Meritor, Stemco, and Dana's Spicer Division have introduced such designs. Unitized hubs have about 20% of the steer-axle market and some 10% of the trailer market, according to Meritor’s Kurt Burmeister.

The various makers all agree that ‘maintenance free’ doesn't mean ‘forget about it.’

“Our field-maintenance manual says that when the user has a trailer in for normal maintenance, the mechanic is to take a look at those wheel ends, ensure they rotate smoothly, and check for any excessive end play,” notes Jim Grant, chief engineer for Meritor trailer products. “The bearings are slightly pre-loaded, so there shouldn't be any end play, but the point is, you do want to keep an eye on things anyway."

Burmeister says the payback on the extra cost of a unitized hub occurs, typically, at about 250,000 miles when the first change of a conventional seal would likely be done. The estimated $250 cost of that job is about the upcharge for the unitized hub.

TMC RP 631 The Technology & Maintenance Council's Recommended Practice #631 concerning wheel-end lubrication was re-written in 2000 to better integrate semi-fluid grease more fully into the RP with the addition of updated lube-fill and inspection advice.

The re-write included a four-level inspection regime for grease-lubricated wheel ends, beginning with the driver's pre-trip routine, suggesting he look for seepage and feel the hubs for excessive temperature.

Level 2 is a "detailed external inspection" to be done at PM intervals or at least annually. Among other things, it urges that the vehicle be raised to check for smooth rolling of the wheel and for excessive end play. The hub cap is not removed.

In Level 3, at intervals determined by the vehicle maker, lubricant quantity and condition are checked by pulling the outer bearing. There is simply no other way to get an accurate picture with semi-fluid grease (this stage would be skipped with hard grease). The presence of lube on the outer bearing is part of the check, of course, and re-filling to 50% is advised.

Level 4 is only to be reached, the RP says, if abnormal conditions have been found in the previous stage. It involves a complete system tear-down and suggests that prematurely failed parts and lubricant samples be kept for analysis.

During a TMC Task Force meeting a few years ago, an interesting suggestion came from the floor. Lorne Brock, senior technical specialist with Imperial Oil in Toronto, said Canadian cold-weather experience has proven the value of lubricating the spindle with a molybdenum-containing grease.

The purpose: to prevent fretting corrosion, which occurs in metal-to-metal contact when small particles of metal come adrift and form a very hard ferrous oxide crystal. It can be extremely damaging if it gets in the bearing raceway, Brock said in a subsequent interview, and it can form in as little as two months.

"It's not a time issue," he said. "It's a matter of type of service and [ambient] temperature." And he added that it gets just as cold in Wisconsin and in several other states as it does in most of Canada.

In the absence of lube and/or water, this corrosion appears red, like ordinary rust. With lube present, it appears black. It forms on the bore of the bearing cone and on the spindle bearing journal, underneath the cone.

A moly grease is the only solution, Brock told the Task Force meeting. "We know it works," he said. Responding to the suggestion that graphite would also work, he said he and his colleagues couldn’t find a graphite that was compatible with semi-fluid greases.

If you don't already own TMC's huge Recommended Practices Manual, contact them at 2200 Mill Rd., Alexandria, Va. 22314. Tel. 703/838-1753 or fax 703/684-4328.
 
Monarch Butterfly

You HAVE wasted your time, beings you're wrong.

Post it up.
That's all you have to do.
Post it up, and it all ends shorlty thereafter.

Oh no I have not wasted my time Rixxer if your unwilling to step up and be a new leader than some-one else will,
 
You're still laying eggs.
Your large copy and paste b.s. posts aren't helping you.
I do have a sample of your grease. It is NOT what was used at the factory. Your snotty grease is the wrong base AND grade.
Post up the name of your grease. Or keep clucking.
Bet I know which you'll choose to do.
 
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I Call it Backwoodsgoop

you're still laying eggs.
Your large copy and paste b.s. Posts aren't helping you.
I do have a sample of your grease. It is not what was used at the factory. Your snotty grease is the wrong base and grade.
Post up the name of your grease. Or keep clucking.
Bet i know which you'll choose to do.


Backwoodsgoop

Part # SKL#1


Screenshot2011-07-30at82255AM.png~original
 
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E mail to Kurt

Hi Kurt,

I am posting on Toyota 4 runner forums, If you wish to post up and clear up some things It would be nice, Those guys would like to know why this is the way it is, I have given them a few Theories and the last one
Theory #3 referred to you in a negative manner,

If you wish to defend your integrity than post up,

Doubt you will, but just dont like pointing out these obvious errors in your statements without have you defend yourself,

Such as posting of the "Correct Fluid" that last 30 years, and then later posting of the Toyota (Sales recommendation) of a #2 lithium moly lasting 5-10 being the way to go,

And also posting the concern of the viscous lube traveling from the knuckle to the wheel bearings, then just a few posts later, mentioning how could that happen being that they are separated by a wheel seal and a spindle,

That is classic Kurt, bout the smoothest line of your propaganda that you have ever pulled, absolutely perfect, get the word, seal and spindle in some context and you have a spindle seal,

Darn Your Good,

And I Can see why when I was working with Robbie Anston for a article in Toyota trails, of which you supplied the kit Free of charge for, that you so easily drew him right back into the Darkness,

So I will post this in 4 runner Forums, and hope you come out from under your Utah Rock your hiding under and Splain yourself, Thread is called "New Grease for the solid Axle"

Best wishes and I am still coming after you

Frank,

PS you should have never called me a Liar Moron and a Idiot, Rather insulted me,
 
I still see no info on the name of the grease.
Just more useless crap that proves nothing.
Seems to be a trend in your posts frank.
More rotten eggs, and no Bacon.
 
Bacon

I still see no info on the name of the grease.
Just more useless crap that proves nothing.
Seems to be a trend in your posts frank.
More rotten eggs, and no Bacon.

The Bacon comes after you sign the contract, Rixxer


According to Patrick, brainwashing involved hypnosis through brain waves projected from a cult recruiter’s eyes and fingertips. Once cults had individuals under their control, the groups programmed them through a combination of constant indoctrination, a totalistic environment and self-hypnosis that insured continued subservience. Based on this reasoning Patrick began developing a means of reversing cultic programming, which he termed deprogramming. According to Patrick the process involved opening up the individual’s mind by providing alternative information. Once they were able to think and evaluate ideas again, he asserted, cult members would deprogram themselves and exit the cult. In reality, the process typically involved, as we have seen, abducting an individual, moving them to a remote location, and physically confining them for periods ranging from a few days to a few weeks until they agreed to renounce TMS membership. Patrick soon discovered, however, that many individuals needed further rehabilitation to insure that they were completely free of cultic influence. As a result, support facilities such as rehabilitation centers and halfway houses were created to monitor deprogrammees through the transition period.





Some how exit the cult, with out being removed and reprogrammed in a remote location,
 
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FANTASTIC salesmanship.
Try to sell people spomething, but not tell them what it IS.
Because EVERYONE is going to run out and buy 55 gallons of crappy grease FROM INDIA, just to one-up YOU, frank.
I think not.
Post it up frank.
 
I am not a salesman

FANTASTIC salesmanship.
Try to sell people spomething, but not tell them what it IS.
Because EVERYONE is going to run out and buy 55 gallons of crappy grease FROM INDIA, just to one-up YOU, frank.
I think not.
Post it up frank.

Rixxer I am not a sales man,

I am your "Exit counselor," I am not selling , I am re-educating, So if it would have required me to get this grease from the furthest ends of the world in the 55 gallon drums and have No Idea what it was,

I would,

Just to say here it is a "Correct Fluid Grease" that Toyota uses in production

I am not a salesman, a De programmer, a Exit Counselor, re educating you

What part of that do you not understand ?
 
Dean

Exit counseling, also termed strategic intervention therapy, cult intervention or thought reform consultation, is an intervention designed to persuade an individual to leave a group perceived to be a cult. Exit counseling is distinguished from deprogramming by the fact that it's a voluntary procedure, that the follower is treated with respect, can leave any time, and that the decision to stay with the group or leave it is wholly up to the follower and will be accepted by the exit counselor.

Generally, the person is presented with information about the group in question or other groups, including especially information which is usually not available to followers, testimonies from former members of this or other cults, along with information on the nature of mind control theory. The conviction of the exit-counselor is that once the member is aware of the logical flaws in his belief structure and his allegiance, as well as the emotional factors binding him to the cult, he will not feel comfortable remaining in the organization.



"testimonies from former members of this or other cults, along with information on the nature of mind control theory."

That is what I need to do, Rix I am doing everything else but I need to get you to talk to "Dean" salty old mechanic with 8 year run @ the Toyota dealership,

He is about retired now, but thats what will help,, If I gave you his # would you call him ???

Sign it Rixxer, become a member of the GMA and leave TMS,


Strategic Intervention Therapy,
 
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