New Magnuson TVS1320 Available for 3rd Gens

[Speedy]

Gamefreakgc hit all the points, I'll just add that I'm not aware of a single example other than the 3.4L Toyota that I've ever heard of where the manufacturer says to bolt on a supercharger and go with no tune, fuel mods, etc.

I ran my M62 black TRD supercharger stock for a couple weeks and the truck pinged like mad at lower RPMs and felt weak up top. I put in an URD 7th injector back then and it was night and day happier. I now run water meth on mine and have for the past 6 or 7 years and now it's a rocket compared to where it started.

If not understanding why those additional items are important, my strong advice is to leave the truck a lone.

 

[Devbot]

I'm a bit torn on this one. Toyota and Magnuson say bolt it on and go enjoy.

Everyone else says you can't, but they run an lamda/afr gauge of some sort, whatever diameter of pulley they have, and all say it's too lean.....

Then the Facebook hive mind seems to say the older m62 setup is better?

Is there actually any evidence out there of someone frying their 5VZ with a stock pulley setup from not running any additional parts like rising rate pressure regulators or different pumps to up the afr assuming a stock pulley? Seems like there's a disconnect in the internet between what Toyota and what Magnuson say and what everyone else says. One side side ran a stock m62 for 20 years and it's perfect. The other side seems to have a bag of parts, tuning for and other systems days, and who knows what else.


It's just difficult for me to know who to believe. Regarding m62 vs tvs1320, to move a similar mass air flow or greater than before at a lower pressure ratio to atmosphere seems like a great thing.

I've been waiting a while for the new tvs setup. I'm just dumbfounded by everyone not saying it's better. Less heat, better bearing setup, and a more efficient compressor map all seem like a win to me.

I haven't ran a tvs 1320 on a 5vz and I certainly haven't sat there and watched actual brake specific fuel consumption on one on a dyno, so I have no real experience draw from. Only what the internet tells me.

I don't understand it either. Look at all the 1st gen TRD Tacomas out there still rolling around that are owned by people none the wiser to piggybacks, 7th injectors and whatnot. But then the 4Runner crowd has a headache with the same blower on the same motor. What's up with that??
I mean I guess you can say that about 4Runners too - there are definitely people out there with superchargers who are totally unaware of it - but at the rate they were put in Tacomas the same issues should be way more common and understood by now

 

[96RedRunner]

What's the difference between a Tacoma and 4Runner that plays a part in the comparison.

A 5VZ's 190 CHP is achieved by optimum combustion through Rev range. The tuner strives to achieve
that same optimum combustion after adding blower. Results no HP left on the table same reliability.
"Toyota and Magnuson say bolt it on and go enjoy". That's for the masses it'll work but.......
Understanding why those additional items are important comes into play.

 

[Bad Luck]

I don't understand it either. Look at all the 1st gen TRD Tacomas out there still rolling around that are owned by people none the wiser to piggybacks, 7th injectors and whatnot. But then the 4Runner crowd has a headache with the same blower on the same motor. What's up with that??
I mean I guess you can say that about 4Runners too - there are definitely people out there with superchargers who are totally unaware of it - but at the rate they were put in Tacomas the same issues should be way more common and understood by now

Are you saying that all TRD 1st gen Tacomas had a supercharger? I've never heard that and almost all that I've seen don't have a supercharger. My brother had a TRD 1st gen Tacoma and it didn't have a supercharger. My understanding was that the 5VZ supercharger was a dealer installed option.

 

[Romeo1]

Gamefreakgc hit all the points, I'll just add that I'm not aware of a single example other than the 3.4L Toyota that I've ever heard of where the manufacturer says to bolt on a supercharger and go with no tune, fuel mods, etc.

I ran my M62 black TRD supercharger stock for a couple weeks and the truck pinged like mad at lower RPMs and felt weak up top. I put in an URD 7th injector back then and it was night and day happier. I now run water meth on mine and have for the past 6 or 7 years and now it's a rocket compared to where it started.

If not understanding why those additional items are important, my strong advice is to leave the truck a lone.

I completely understand the why behind at all. I don't have any 5vz boost experience, but I have probably spent more time looking at air fuel ratio's than most people in the 90s and and early 2000s. BTW, if you get a chance to take a rip in a tuned RX7, do it. What a visceral experience.

Back to topic though, some engines systems don't care about air to fuel. Others you get into the you send it past 12.5 it gets unhappy quick. Lean is mean though right? It's obviously not a simple subject as compression ratios, timing, charge air temps and all the fun stuff gets played into the equation.

I'm just genuinely puzzled here because that's not what Magnuson publishes in their m62 or TVs 1320 install literature. The system is CARB certified even.

My questions are purely based around, trying to have a better understanding of what actually is going on instead of people repeating or just saying what other people "heard" on Facebook and forums. I just feel like there's a lot of distance apart on what gets discussed from follow the install directions to if you don't run a haltech you're doing it wrong.

Local guy has an original Trd supercharger on his 4Runner. He ran it almost two decades and never did a single thing to it. l other than have the dealership install it.

I also agree that there's not a lot of systems out there that are just a bolt on and go without turning. It seems that the ECM and sensor architecture has the ability to account for a certain amount of latitude to measure due to how the Mass Air sensor is setup. The owner of Amped up near Boise had a turbo 5vz Tacoma and I want to say he told me that the ECM can read something like four or six PSI gauge or something crazy like that. That part always seemed very interesting to me, as most other sensor architectures are separate sensors for manifold absolute and barometric pressure.
[MENTION=8729]Speedy[/MENTION], Thanks for telling me about your experience with your set up.

 

[Speedy]

You guys are trying to figure something out that's been debated for 20 years. I can tell you from first hand experience these don't run right without some timing pulled at lower RPM and some added fuel up top.

I'd be very surprised if the factory programming understands boost pressure. Vehicles I've worked with for tuning use airflow/aircharge typically measured in milligrams as the airflow value. More boost = more airflow but due to variances in altitude, weather (DA), etc boost doesn't mean much to a PCM.

It's too bad no one ever cracked the tuning on the 3.4L platform as we could avoid a lot of these challenges easier, and piggy backs are so 1990s lol.

I ran the URD 7th for 15 years, then added water meth. I thought the 7th could be completely eliminated but you still need to pull timing down low in the RPM range, and with a meth injection setup this becomes even more important. My truck will command max timing at WOT which is around 20-21 deg. Factory programming uses the WOT timing table to extrapolate timing in lower RPMs so on my truck it started advancing the timing down low causing the high gear low RPM ping to be worse and occurring before my meth injection starts to progressively spray at 6psi. In other words I needed to retard timing advance 1 deg per psi of boost below 6psi. This solved my issues.

I'd never want a forced induction platform to go more than 12.0 AFR at wide open throttle. More than that and things start to heat up quickly.

As for why there's many of these supercharged out there without any tuning still running "OK" would make me question how often are they WOT. Probably not often. Those that are have probably suffered a cracked head around the exhaust valve. I think Tim and Sean recently had to replace a head on Sean's truck due to a cracked head and he also recently added a supercharger, but I'm not sure if he also added a 7th inj or other necessary equipment.

I will say the juice is worth the squeeze to get these superchargers setup properly. Once dialed in they run amazingly well with a nice healthy power band. I run a 2.1 pulley on mine and see 9-11psi depending on weather, but the real story is the mid range. Think merging on the highway at half throttle etc. It really pulls nicely there and makes merging effortless. I'm not running an upgraded fuel pump (still stock), no upgraded valve body, no change in torque converter, etc. Just the supercharger, URD 7th, and water meth. The 7th is mainly used to pull that timing low in the RPM range while in boost and provide just a spritz of fuel at wot redline as a safety net.

 

[Devbot]

Are you saying that all TRD 1st gen Tacomas had a supercharger? I've never heard that and almost all that I've seen don't have a supercharger. My brother had a TRD 1st gen Tacoma and it didn't have a supercharger. My understanding was that the 5VZ supercharger was a dealer installed option.

I thought that's what it meant, supercharger+e-locker? Is it a designation for just e-locked variants instead? That would explain a lot if so

 

[Speedy]

I had a 99 TRD Tacoma 4x4. No supercharger. Elocker, tuned suspension, and decal on the bed sides.

 

[Bad Luck]

I thought that's what it meant, supercharger+e-locker? Is it a designation for just e-locked variants instead? That would explain a lot if so

Like Speedy said I've only seen them with a "tuned" suspension and rear e-locker

 

[Romeo1]

Yeah there is a lot of conflicting information out there and a whole lot of bad opinions. Hopefully this helps:

For the TRD M62 (1st & 2nd gen S/C) - It can be run as-is, bolt on with no immediate ill effects. Mine was supercharged for at least 100K miles before I bought it with nothing else but the supercharger as I met the guy who installed it on my 4Runner at the Auburn CA Toyota dealership. He was surprised it was doing so well after all those years. That's consistent with what Steven (Gadget) at URD has also said, you can run it just as it is and be ok but it's not ideal. It does run lean but the engine can take it. There is a point where it's not ok as I know others that have burnt and cracked exhaust valves if you drive like you stole it every day. It can be repaired so it's not a death sentence but it's not great either. Also puts extra heat stress on the automatic transmission.

For TVS1320 (3rd gen S/C) - URD has shown data that it runs even leaner that the M62 as they did some apples to apples dyno testing on a single vehicle. Remember, the M62 already ran lean. Now it is even leaner which increases engine and combustion temperatures to high levels. That means burning valves faster, hotter coolant than before and hotter exhaust. Eventually something will break, could be in a few thousand miles or you could get lucky and take years. I don't know of anyone that is recommending the TVS1320 to be 100% bolt on ready. It requires more fuel.

URD has more research and time invested in the 5VZ-FE than any other aftermarket performance company in the US. The other one that comes close is LC Engineering. Trust the advice that these guys give.

Thank you for the details.

I wonder how much low elevation versus high elevation operation changes the user experience with these blowers?

I'd like to invest in one of these TVS set ups, but I'll be completely honest, I got tired of packing around a laptop to tune stuff along time ago. I just don't have that kind of time or patience to tinker anymore. my brother and I even created a rule, no tuning or wrenching on play days. Shop only...lol. Some of the stupid stuff we used to do like adjusting needle clips on carburetors in the middle of nowhere, super heavy, toolboxes, and getting Duramax transmission tuning to be happy in the middle of the night with a laptop.

Part of the learning curve I guess..... or the insanity.....lol.

 

[Romeo1]

You guys are trying to figure something out that's been debated for 20 years. I can tell you from first hand experience these don't run right without some timing pulled at lower RPM and some added fuel up top.

I'd be very surprised if the factory programming understands boost pressure. Vehicles I've worked with for tuning use airflow/aircharge typically measured in milligrams as the airflow value. More boost = more airflow but due to variances in altitude, weather (DA), etc boost doesn't mean much to a PCM.

It's too bad no one ever cracked the tuning on the 3.4L platform as we could avoid a lot of these challenges easier, and piggy backs are so 1990s lol.

I ran the URD 7th for 15 years, then added water meth. I thought the 7th could be completely eliminated but you still need to pull timing down low in the RPM range, and with a meth injection setup this becomes even more important. My truck will command max timing at WOT which is around 20-21 deg. Factory programming uses the WOT timing table to extrapolate timing in lower RPMs so on my truck it started advancing the timing down low causing the high gear low RPM ping to be worse and occurring before my meth injection starts to progressively spray at 6psi. In other words I needed to retard timing advance 1 deg per psi of boost below 6psi. This solved my issues.

I'd never want a forced induction platform to go more than 12.0 AFR at wide open throttle. More than that and things start to heat up quickly.

As for why there's many of these supercharged out there without any tuning still running "OK" would make me question how often are they WOT. Probably not often. Those that are have probably suffered a cracked head around the exhaust valve. I think Tim and Sean recently had to replace a head on Sean's truck due to a cracked head and he also recently added a supercharger, but I'm not sure if he also added a 7th inj or other necessary equipment.

I will say the juice is worth the squeeze to get these superchargers setup properly. Once dialed in they run amazingly well with a nice healthy power band. I run a 2.1 pulley on mine and see 9-11psi depending on weather, but the real story is the mid range. Think merging on the highway at half throttle etc. It really pulls nicely there and makes merging effortless. I'm not running an upgraded fuel pump (still stock), no upgraded valve body, no change in torque converter, etc. Just the supercharger, URD 7th, and water meth. The 7th is mainly used to pull that timing low in the RPM range while in boost and provide just a spritz of fuel at wot redline as a safety net.

Just what he told me on boost for a single turbo Tacoma he had. The factory ecu had the ability to measure and fuel to a certain level of boost.

He sent me a video and everything of towing even. I'll have to see if I can find it.

 

[Speedy]

A turbo doesn't make instant boost like a PD supercharger, so he may have been OK from a timing advance perspective at lower RPM. Mine makes 4-5psi at 2000 rpm easing on the throttle on the highway. I get audible detonation with stock timing at that RPM when that happens which is real bad on a motor. Pulling 1 deg per psi and no more ping.

It's been a long time since I put the supercharger on mine, but on the stock pulley I don't remember it being lean until way up in the RPM range and then it was a little hit or miss due to what I assume was cat over temp protection kicking in at times and dumping fuel.

I hear ya on riding around with a laptop tuning. I had a Hellcat that I tuned myself for flex fuel and man that was a lot of work. Fun, but did get kinda old driving for hours witha laptop logging, adjusting, etc. Once I had it dialed in it was awesome though.

These are a LOT easier. I dialed in my tune on this truck in one afternoon and have only had to make changes if I change something on the truck like pulley, adding water/meth, etc. The tune that's in mine now has been there a couple years now and I've not touched it. You only have two things to play with, fuel and timing lol.

 

[Romeo1]

A turbo doesn't make instant boost like a PD supercharger, so he may have been OK from a timing advance perspective at lower RPM. Mine makes 4-5psi at 2000 rpm easing on the throttle on the highway. I get audible detonation with stock timing at that RPM when that happens which is real bad on a motor. Pulling 1 deg per psi and no more ping.

It's been a long time since I put the supercharger on mine, but on the stock pulley I don't remember it being lean until way up in the RPM range and then it was a little hit or miss due to what I assume was cat over temp protection kicking in at times and dumping fuel.

I hear ya on riding around with a laptop tuning. I had a Hellcat that I tuned myself for flex fuel and man that was a lot of work. Fun, but did get kinda old driving for hours witha laptop logging, adjusting, etc. Once I had it dialed in it was awesome though.

These are a LOT easier. I dialed in my tune on this truck in one afternoon and have only had to make changes if I change something on the truck like pulley, adding water/meth, etc. The tune that's in mine now has been there a couple years now and I've not touched it. You only have two things to play with, fuel and timing lol.

How did you pull timing out? I was under the impression it couldn't be changed? Is there a scan tool that can do it? [Looks over at old and busted AutoEnginuity setup].

I'd like to not spend any more money on scan tools. I've spent more money on OBD setups over the years than I care to admit. Oh what the hell why not......I've yet to pack a coffin with money in it.

 

[Speedy]

The URD 7th Injector is a piggy back unit that ties in to several of the vehicle sensors. One of which allows you to retard timing by RPM/Boost. There may be newer equipment to do this now, mines like 15 years old. It's basically set and forget.

 

[Lefty JD]

FWIW-My experiences with the gen 2 (black m62) over the years. Long post, but maybe good info for some on the fence.

I drive 53 miles each way to work on windy rural roads with lots of accel/decel cycles, and I drive hard. Once at work I drive around a mine site all day on dirt, sand and mud for hours at each day. 110* summers and radiator jammed with mud winters. They all towed a small dirt bike trailer with 1-3 bikes, spare parts and firewood all over the Sierra Nevadas and Rockies until I picked up a sprinter van about a year ago. So these rigs had a rough life!

Got a used 2nd gen off ebay. Didn't check anything on the supercharger, just bolted it on per the instructions.

97 4R, auto 4x4 on 255/85's. Had about 250k miles when I put the blower on. It had no major rebuilds before this- still factory engine, heads, trans etc. Just normal replace the bad alternator kinda stuff, most major work was a timing belt at ~225. Everything seemed healthy at that point though. With blower it ran great, had a slight audible ping in high gear light throttle rolling into a bit more throttle. Think cruising at 55 and giving it slightly more gas to keep speed on a slight incline. Any more gas than that and no ping. It had 4.10's, I put 4.30's in when I found an ARB for cheap. It liked the gears for sure, hit that narrow ping range even less. I added 7th injector setup, didn't adjust tuning at all. Made more power and no ping. Eventually ran a 2.1 pulley and still didn't mess with 7th programming. At about 350k it got smacked on the fwy. Motor and trans were still happy then. I had a A/F gauge on it and it stayed close enough to perfect I didn't bother tuning the 7th stuff.

Took the same blower and put it on a 97 taco, no 7th, back to stock pulley, and no A/F gauge this time. Similar running gear Auto w/4.30's and 255/85's. The Taco ran great, it felt as quick as the 4runner was with 7th and pulley. The taco was a $500 ~300K mile beater with a bad water pump and rod knock when I got it. I put a water pump on it and it ran for two and a half years as I described above to work and back each day. Rod knock the whole time, sounded like it could nuke itself any moment. Had the same light load low rpm ping. Finally took out a head gasket when the water pump pulley sheared off in a remote area and I overheated it trying to limp it back to the Maint shop.

Took the blower off and sold the taco to a buddy to build. I still haven't done a nose cone or any maint on it. Put it on my current 99 4R auto at about 225k, running great still at 265k. Am considering 7th injector and 2.1 pulley again or maybe dump some money into the new blower, pulley and 7th. If I keep the 2nd gen I'll go through the bearings etc too.

The blower gives these 3.4's enough power to counteract all the weight I've added to them. Full skids, roof rack, bumper, tire swing out, ARB fridge and tools ect inside. Current one is right around 6-6,200lbs when I roll across the scales at the mine.

I've put probably 250-300k miles on this blower, most of those on regular CA 87 unleaded gas I pump at the mine (work vehicle so I get free company fleet gas!). I really don't think these push the 3.4 motor "to the edge" or "it's a coin toss once you bolt it on" like some say. The Taco motor was terminal when I bought it, lasted over 2 years and STILL didn't succumb to a boost related failure. With pulley swaps yea you're getting into the danger zone without doing some fuel and timing solutions. As delivered I think a generally healthy 3.4 and auto is plenty stout to handle the slightly lean tune they run without mods.

I dunno with the new version, yea lower boost and bigger rotors. But at similar power level with the same injectors and ECU it should logic out to a similar additional thermal and physical strain on internals? It takes X amount of air, gas and Cyl pressure to make a certain HP level, after all.

Maybe I've just been really lucky, I dunno? If so I hope my luck continues!

 

[_Ace_]

Your post on the success of your higher mileage 3.4L is making me consider the Magnuson for my 227K mile engine.

I could sure use the extra hp & torque here in Colorado.

 

[Speedy]

Did he say he ran 87 octane on the supercharged engine!?

 

[_Ace_]

Did he say he ran 87 octane on the supercharged engine!?

That's what he posted. The instructions on the Magnuson say 91 octane minimum, not sure what the TRD limitations are.

 

[Bad Luck]

I've always wondered about the feasibility of using a stock supercharger with 87 octane gas

 

[Speedy]

No freaking way I'd ever do that.