New tires caused me to hydroplane? 4runner totalled and going to court. Need advice

[Bill42]

Congratulations!

 

[jharris2]

Glad that the court case worked out for you. We all need to learn the lesson about the 4 tires.

 

[greasefingers]

Not me. I will continue to place the tires with more tread on the front, during the winter for better steering control. This is because I have the AWD version. IMO the better tires on the real axle thing should only apply to 2WD driving.

 

[Pistonslap]

Not me. I will continue to place the tires with more tread on the front, during the winter for better steering control. This is because I have the AWD version. IMO the better tires on the real axle thing should only apply to 2WD driving.

Just curious, but have you ever seen a race car with wider tires in the front than the rear (front wheel drive dragsters do not count)? You never will because you always want the best traction in the rear. Think of it like this, if you go into a corner and your front end starts to slide, you can control it because that axle steers. If your front end bites and the rear breaks loose, what do you do? You pray. Regardless of the drive axle your tires with the most traction should always go on the rear. The drive axles are not exactly important when you are sliding because you are on the brakes not the gas.

 

[RickyCRX]

Just curious, but have you ever seen a race car with wider tires in the front than the rear (front wheel drive dragsters do not count)? You never will because you always want the best traction in the rear. Think of it like this, if you go into a corner and your front end starts to slide, you can control it because that axle steers. If your front end bites and the rear breaks loose, what do you do? You pray. Regardless of the drive axle your tires with the most traction should always go on the rear. The drive axles are not exactly important when you are sliding because you are on the brakes not the gas.

I don't know what planet you're from, but in racing, if you tell the car to turn and it DOESN'T, you are in big trouble. It means you came into the turn WAY too hot, and the ONLY thing you can do is try to scrub off speed in a straight line, get OFF the brakes, and try turning again. You have NO control if the 'front end slides' (understeer)...

Now, if the REAR end slides out, this is different. Typically when you are making a turn, the tail wants to swing out farther, this means that the vehicle is OVERsteering. This is a VERY simple situation to get out of. All you do is countersteer (turn LESS in the direction you originally wanted to go, basically), and gently ease onto the throttle to transfer more weight to the rear. Now, if your tail end slides out due to a on-throttle oversteer in a RWD vehicle, you still want to countersteer, but GENTLY letting up on the throttle slightly will sometimes bring things back where they should be. If the vehicle you are in has neutral-enough handling and not too much power, you can typically ride out this type of a situation by countersteering sufficiently, holding the car in control (as the so-called 'drifters' do).

In the case of UNDERSTEER (front wheels are not turning the vehicle as much as you are telling it to turn), the absolute WORST thing to do is turn the wheel more in the direction you want to go. You have NO choice but to scrub off speed to successfully make the turn. In many situations, you have a split second to realize what's going on, straighten the wheel completely, stab the brakes hard, and get OFF the brakes completely to try to make the turn. I've been in these situations many times when racing and it can be done with discipline.

In the case of OVERSTEER (vehicle is turning more than you want it to; i.e. tail is swinging out around a corner), the average driver gets MORE scared in a situation like this but doesn't realize that it's the easiest to control and get out of. Simply countersteer and gently apply throttle. In almost NO situation do you EVER want to touch the brakes if the tail end comes out. The only time you EVER "give up" and hit the brakes is if the tail end swings out more than about 80-90 degrees... That is what I call the "point of no recovery." If you rotate that far, you're not going to be able to countersteer sufficiently to get going in the direction you want to be going. In none of these cases is "praying" needed. Just a little common sense and understanding of vehicle dynamics and physics.

Hopefully this will clear this up a little bit on how to handle these situations. I've been racing for many years and it's difficult to get novices to learn these types of reactions to certain situations. Many of them seem counter-intuitive. Most people want to just crank the wheel over more when a vehicle understeers and all it does is greatly increase the slip angle to the point where the tires will never catch until you're almost down to a snail's pace.

The reason for race cars having wider tires in the back is so that they can put down more horsepower AND to bring the car back into a neutral balance after they stiffen up the rear suspension. That's the only reason. On street cars with a staggered wheel setup (like BMW M cars, my Honda S2000, and a few others), this is usually because of large sway bars on the front of the car making the front very stiff, causing the rear to get looser in the corners if you don't put more grip out back.

My favorite quote that I always use: "Oversteer scares the passenger(s), understeer scares the driver."

Ricky

 

[biglatka]

I don't know what planet you're from, but in racing, if you tell the car to turn and it DOESN'T, you are in big trouble. It means you came into the turn WAY too hot, and the ONLY thing you can do is try to scrub off speed in a straight line, get OFF the brakes, and try turning again. You have NO control if the 'front end slides' (understeer)...

Now, if the REAR end slides out, this is different. Typically when you are making a turn, the tail wants to swing out farther, this means that the vehicle is OVERsteering. This is a VERY simple situation to get out of. All you do is countersteer (turn LESS in the direction you originally wanted to go, basically), and gently ease onto the throttle to transfer more weight to the rear. Now, if your tail end slides out due to a on-throttle oversteer in a RWD vehicle, you still want to countersteer, but GENTLY letting up on the throttle slightly will sometimes bring things back where they should be. If the vehicle you are in has neutral-enough handling and not too much power, you can typically ride out this type of a situation by countersteering sufficiently, holding the car in control (as the so-called 'drifters' do).

In the case of UNDERSTEER (front wheels are not turning the vehicle as much as you are telling it to turn), the absolute WORST thing to do is turn the wheel more in the direction you want to go. You have NO choice but to scrub off speed to successfully make the turn. In many situations, you have a split second to realize what's going on, straighten the wheel completely, stab the brakes hard, and get OFF the brakes completely to try to make the turn. I've been in these situations many times when racing and it can be done with discipline.

In the case of OVERSTEER (vehicle is turning more than you want it to; i.e. tail is swinging out around a corner), the average driver gets MORE scared in a situation like this but doesn't realize that it's the easiest to control and get out of. Simply countersteer and gently apply throttle. In almost NO situation do you EVER want to touch the brakes if the tail end comes out. The only time you EVER "give up" and hit the brakes is if the tail end swings out more than about 80-90 degrees... That is what I call the "point of no recovery." If you rotate that far, you're not going to be able to countersteer sufficiently to get going in the direction you want to be going. In none of these cases is "praying" needed. Just a little common sense and understanding of vehicle dynamics and physics.

Hopefully this will clear this up a little bit on how to handle these situations. I've been racing for many years and it's difficult to get novices to learn these types of reactions to certain situations. Many of them seem counter-intuitive. Most people want to just crank the wheel over more when a vehicle understeers and all it does is greatly increase the slip angle to the point where the tires will never catch until you're almost down to a snail's pace.

The reason for race cars having wider tires in the back is so that they can put down more horsepower AND to bring the car back into a neutral balance after they stiffen up the rear suspension. That's the only reason. On street cars with a staggered wheel setup (like BMW M cars, my Honda S2000, and a few others), this is usually because of large sway bars on the front of the car making the front very stiff, causing the rear to get looser in the corners if you don't put more grip out back.

My favorite quote that I always use: "Oversteer scares the passenger(s), understeer scares the driver."

Ricky

Ricky,
Thanks for the education! So can one assume that, as a general rule of thumb, it is best to countersteer (toward the direction of skidding) in either type of skid (due to over or understeer) and ease off the throttle as we're taught to do up here in snow country? I agree, this is especially counter-intuitive in understeer situations.

 

[Pistonslap]

I don't know what planet you're from, but in racing, if you tell the car to turn and it DOESN'T, you are in big trouble. It means you came into the turn WAY too hot, and the ONLY thing you can do is try to scrub off speed in a straight line, get OFF the brakes, and try turning again. You have NO control if the 'front end slides' (understeer)...

Now, if the REAR end slides out, this is different. Typically when you are making a turn, the tail wants to swing out farther, this means that the vehicle is OVERsteering. This is a VERY simple situation to get out of. All you do is countersteer (turn LESS in the direction you originally wanted to go, basically), and gently ease onto the throttle to transfer more weight to the rear. Now, if your tail end slides out due to a on-throttle oversteer in a RWD vehicle, you still want to countersteer, but GENTLY letting up on the throttle slightly will sometimes bring things back where they should be. If the vehicle you are in has neutral-enough handling and not too much power, you can typically ride out this type of a situation by countersteering sufficiently, holding the car in control (as the so-called 'drifters' do).

In the case of UNDERSTEER (front wheels are not turning the vehicle as much as you are telling it to turn), the absolute WORST thing to do is turn the wheel more in the direction you want to go. You have NO choice but to scrub off speed to successfully make the turn. In many situations, you have a split second to realize what's going on, straighten the wheel completely, stab the brakes hard, and get OFF the brakes completely to try to make the turn. I've been in these situations many times when racing and it can be done with discipline.

In the case of OVERSTEER (vehicle is turning more than you want it to; i.e. tail is swinging out around a corner), the average driver gets MORE scared in a situation like this but doesn't realize that it's the easiest to control and get out of. Simply countersteer and gently apply throttle. In almost NO situation do you EVER want to touch the brakes if the tail end comes out. The only time you EVER "give up" and hit the brakes is if the tail end swings out more than about 80-90 degrees... That is what I call the "point of no recovery." If you rotate that far, you're not going to be able to countersteer sufficiently to get going in the direction you want to be going. In none of these cases is "praying" needed. Just a little common sense and understanding of vehicle dynamics and physics.

Hopefully this will clear this up a little bit on how to handle these situations. I've been racing for many years and it's difficult to get novices to learn these types of reactions to certain situations. Many of them seem counter-intuitive. Most people want to just crank the wheel over more when a vehicle understeers and all it does is greatly increase the slip angle to the point where the tires will never catch until you're almost down to a snail's pace.

The reason for race cars having wider tires in the back is so that they can put down more horsepower AND to bring the car back into a neutral balance after they stiffen up the rear suspension. That's the only reason. On street cars with a staggered wheel setup (like BMW M cars, my Honda S2000, and a few others), this is usually because of large sway bars on the front of the car making the front very stiff, causing the rear to get looser in the corners if you don't put more grip out back.

My favorite quote that I always use: "Oversteer scares the passenger(s), understeer scares the driver."

Ricky

Dope, I am talking about the placement of tires, but thanks for your lesson. Did you not learn anything from the michelin video or are you going to tell me that you are smarter than all the michelin engineers put together?

 

[00void]

Ricky,
Thanks for the education!

 

[RickyCRX]

Dope, I am talking about the placement of tires, but thanks for your lesson. Did you not learn anything from the michelin video or are you going to tell me that you are smarter than all the michelin engineers put together?

What makes you think you are the expert in everything you write about? How many hours have you spent at the limits of adhesion in a vehicle? Come on out to one of the track or AutoCross events I race at and I'll take you for a little ride that will make you understand what I'm talking about (just don't tear a hole in the bottom of my seat when your a$$ puckers).

The only thing the Michelin video illustrated was that somebody who knows how to handle a car can make it oversteer at will and, as long as they don't countersteer and don't apply more throttle (in the case of the FWD cars they were showing), the car will keep rotating and spin out. Please tell me something I don't know???? I can do the exact same thing in any FWD car with bald front tires and brand new rear tires. If you don't believe me, supply the car (any car), and I will make it happen. Dry roads or wet rain-slicked roads as they did; it doesn't matter to me.

Ricky

 

[RickyCRX]

Ricky,
Thanks for the education! So can one assume that, as a general rule of thumb, it is best to countersteer (toward the direction of skidding) in either type of skid (due to over or understeer) and ease off the throttle as we're taught to do up here in snow country? I agree, this is especially counter-intuitive in understeer situations.

It truly depends on the situation. In the case of oversteer, it's typically ALWAYS best to countersteer. In the case of understeer, you'll likely need to apply less steering input (turn less, because the tires are just scrubbing sideways already), quickly lose speed, then get off the brakes and try again.

The best way to demonstrate this, especially if you live in an area where you get snow, is to get in a car that doesn't have any traction control or other electronic "crutches" like the 4Runner does and get going at about 20 mph and quickly turn the wheel to a full wheel lock in either direction. You'll probably find that the car will mostly resume going straight ahead. Now, without even touching the brakes, unwind the steering wheel until the car grabs and starts turning in the direction you wanted to go. Next time, try it at 30-35mph, but instead of going to a full wheel lock, turn slightly more than the car will actually go for the speed and traction conditions. Once you find that the car is sliding or plowing straight ahead, straighten the wheel very quickly, stab the brake pedal firmly for a very short period of time, and then try to turn the same amount you had the wheels turned the last time when the car slid. You'll probably find that it will then make the turn because you will not be exceeding the grip available for the turn you were trying to make. You can get a good feeling for this in an empty parking lot when it's snowy or rainy... Just be careful of light poles.

In probably 90+ percent of oversteer situations, you will want to gently, smoothly apply more throttle as well as countersteer. This is true in FWD and RWD vehicles. The whole idea is to get some weight transfer back to the rear wheels.

Just remember, for oversteer, steer in the direction you want to go... For understeer, "unwind the wheel"... Don't turn it more; it will only make matters worse until you lose some speed.

 

[biglatka]

It truly depends on the situation. In the case of oversteer, it's typically ALWAYS best to countersteer. In the case of understeer, you'll likely need to apply less steering input (turn less, because the tires are just scrubbing sideways already), quickly lose speed, then get off the brakes and try again.

The best way to demonstrate this, especially if you live in an area where you get snow, is to get in a car that doesn't have any traction control or other electronic "crutches" like the 4Runner does and get going at about 20 mph and quickly turn the wheel to a full wheel lock in either direction. You'll probably find that the car will mostly resume going straight ahead. Now, without even touching the brakes, unwind the steering wheel until the car grabs and starts turning in the direction you wanted to go. Next time, try it at 30-35mph, but instead of going to a full wheel lock, turn slightly more than the car will actually go for the speed and traction conditions. Once you find that the car is sliding or plowing straight ahead, straighten the wheel very quickly, stab the brake pedal firmly for a very short period of time, and then try to turn the same amount you had the wheels turned the last time when the car slid. You'll probably find that it will then make the turn because you will not be exceeding the grip available for the turn you were trying to make. You can get a good feeling for this in an empty parking lot when it's snowy or rainy... Just be careful of light poles.

In probably 90+ percent of oversteer situations, you will want to gently, smoothly apply more throttle as well as countersteer. This is true in FWD and RWD vehicles. The whole idea is to get some weight transfer back to the rear wheels.

Just remember, for oversteer, steer in the direction you want to go... For understeer, "unwind the wheel"... Don't turn it more; it will only make matters worse until you lose some speed.

Ok, thanks again. I'm looking forward to the snow this winter to try out your suggestions, doing figure 8's and donuts in a deserted parking lot and watching out for the light poles of course. It will be interesting (and fun) to find out the limits of the 4Runner in a safe environment.

 

[RickyCRX]

Ok, thanks again. I'm looking forward to the snow this winter to try out your suggestions, doing figure 8's and donuts in a deserted parking lot and watching out for the light poles of course. It will be interesting (and fun) to find out the limits of the 4Runner in a safe environment.

That's the safest place to do it!

 

[Pistonslap]

What makes you think you are the expert in everything you write about? How many hours have you spent at the limits of adhesion in a vehicle? Come on out to one of the track or AutoCross events I race at and I'll take you for a little ride that will make you understand what I'm talking about (just don't tear a hole in the bottom of my seat when your a$$ puckers).

The only thing the Michelin video illustrated was that somebody who knows how to handle a car can make it oversteer at will and, as long as they don't countersteer and don't apply more throttle (in the case of the FWD cars they were showing), the car will keep rotating and spin out. Please tell me something I don't know???? I can do the exact same thing in any FWD car with bald front tires and brand new rear tires. If you don't believe me, supply the car (any car), and I will make it happen. Dry roads or wet rain-slicked roads as they did; it doesn't matter to me.

Ricky

Not only are you smarter than everyone, but you are a professional race car driver? My apologies for doubting you. I was dumb to think that a test in controlled situation by a major tire maker would dare to go against your infinite wisdom. I guess Michelin could have saved a lot of money and just asked you. T

The point is again you are wrong and can not produce any information to support yourself. I don't think that I am right just because I like what I think, but I do have empirical support to back me up. Not just "I raced cars so I know best"

 

[RickyCRX]

Not only are you smarter than everyone, but you are a professional race car driver? My apologies for doubting you. I was dumb to think that a test in controlled situation by a major tire maker would dare to go against your infinite wisdom. I guess Michelin could have saved a lot of money and just asked you. T

The point is again you are wrong and can not produce any information to support yourself. I don't think that I am right just because I like what I think, but I do have empirical support to back me up. Not just "I raced cars so I know best"

As I said before; those guys NEVER ONCE countersteered in that Michelin video. When the tail begins to rotate in a vehicle, you are supposed to countersteer AND gently apply more throttle. THEY DIDN'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!

Stop being a pain in the ass... Please.

You taking that Michlin video at face value is the same as somebody saying, "Well, I read it on the Internet, so it MUST be true."

Get out to a local track event (whether it be AutoCross, road race, etc) and talk to some people that know what they're doing. You might actually learn something instead of looking like an idiot.

Oh, and I've "only" been racing cars for about 8-9 years. I raced other (off-road) vehicles before that.

Ricky

 

[Pistonslap]

As I said before; those guys NEVER ONCE countersteered in that Michelin video. When the tail begins to rotate in a vehicle, you are supposed to countersteer AND gently apply more throttle. THEY DIDN'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!

Stop being a pain in the ass... Please.

You taking that Michlin video at face value is the same as somebody saying, "Well, I read it on the Internet, so it MUST be true."

Get out to a local track event (whether it be AutoCross, road race, etc) and talk to some people that know what they're doing. You might actually learn something.

Ricky

You idiot, you missed the point of the video. It wasn't a how to recover from a spin. It was to show the difference between having better tires on the front vs the rear. If you had the better tires on the rear, you are not as likely to get yourself into that situation where you need to counter steer. It is not only Michelin that states that new tires should go on the rear. It is every tire manufacturer, car manufacturer, tire retailer, the list goes on. Don't you think that the people who have everything to risk would want to get the correct information out to the public so that they don't get sued? Or should the public take advice from Ricky and his part time big wheel racing buddies?

The fact is that you are wrong and you are giving out dangerous information with no facts to back it up that can get someone seriously hurt. You should be a little more educated before you speak.

 

[RickyCRX]

You idiot, you missed the point of the video. It wasn't a how to recover from a spin. It was to show the difference between having better tires on the front vs the rear. If you had the better tires on the rear, you are not as likely to get yourself into that situation where you need to counter steer. It is not only Michelin that states that new tires should go on the rear. It is every tire manufacturer, car manufacturer, tire retailer, the list goes on. Don't you think that the people who have everything to risk would want to get the correct information out to the public so that they don't get sued? Or should the public take advice from Ricky and his part time big wheel racing buddies?

The fact is that you are wrong and you are giving out dangerous information with no facts to back it up that can get someone seriously hurt. You should be a little more educated before you speak.

Oh my God...

You're a complete idiot...

Seriously.

I never said where to put new tires on a car... You can stick them up your a$$ for all I am concerned. I will always put new tires on the drive axle, because they wear faster on the drive axle (in both FWD and RWD settings, I am not talking about AWD vehicles). If they wear faster, they will get down to the tread depth of the 'old' tires quicker, providing a more consistent grip front-to-rear from that point on if you then rotate them regularly.

Tell me how I am supposed to put new tires on the rear of my S2000 when I reach 12k miles on the car (at which point the fronts are bald) and the rears were just replaced at 8k miles. Go ahead, I dare you to come up with an answer to this one consistent to your previous ramblings.

Ricky

 

[Bill42]

Great donneybrooke! Ok gentlemen, pistols at noon BTW, that would explain the admonition to not leave skid marks on your underwear...

 

[jharris2]

This thread is getting far too emotional. We either need to get back on track or just drop the subject.

 

[Pistonslap]

Oh my God...

You're a complete idiot...

Seriously.

I never said where to put new tires on a car... You can stick them up your a$$ for all I am concerned. I will always put new tires on the drive axle, because they wear faster on the drive axle (in both FWD and RWD settings, I am not talking about AWD vehicles). If they wear faster, they will get down to the tread depth of the 'old' tires quicker, providing a more consistent grip front-to-rear from that point on if you then rotate them regularly.

Tell me how I am supposed to put new tires on the rear of my S2000 when I reach 12k miles on the car (at which point the fronts are bald) and the rears were just replaced at 8k miles. Go ahead, I dare you to come up with an answer to this one consistent to your previous ramblings.

Ricky

I give up, you win.

 

[Lime02sport]

"because they wear faster on the drive axle (in both FWD and RWD settings, I am not talking about AWD vehicles). If they wear faster, they will get down to the tread depth of the 'old' tires quicker" and rain gets you wet. you are both morons