New tires caused me to hydroplane? 4runner totalled and going to court. Need advice

[boston_kevin]

I worked as a mechanic all through college and pit crew during some races. On any rear-wheel drive car, the new tires always go in the rear. On front-wheel drive, the new tires go in the front. You want the grip from the driving wheels, not the steering wheels. If the tires with better grip are on the front of the vehicle (rear-wheel drive), you have added resistance to moving those tires and pushing them through the rain/snow. Now with that added resistance and the rear-wheels having less grip due to limited tread and reduced weight over the tires, the will spin out (as we have seen). If you want the maximum grip then replace all 4.

 

[sharp4runr]

I worked as a mechanic all through college and pit crew during some races. On any rear-wheel drive car, the new tires always go in the rear. On front-wheel drive, the new tires go in the front. You want the grip from the driving wheels, not the steering wheels. If the tires with better grip are on the front of the vehicle (rear-wheel drive), you have added resistance to moving those tires and pushing them through the rain/snow. Now with that added resistance and the rear-wheels having less grip due to limited tread and reduced weight over the tires, the will spin out (as we have seen). If you want the maximum grip then replace all 4.

From the video, the blue car looks like a ford taurus which is FWD and it didn't matter that is FWD with the new tires in the front. It looked like it was pretty twitchy in the wet.

I think it totally makes sense to put the newer tires on the rear. During a corner, the inertia of the car makes the car want to continue straight. This puts cornering forces on the outside rear tire and if the tread cannot grip then a fishtail ensues. maybe it makes sense to me?

 

[ssmathis]

Here's the Motor Trend article I was referring to earlier. It's from last year I thought was very insightful.

Scott

Motor Trend

 

[TRUST8383]

Thanks all for the input. I just got back from court. It was only an arraignment. I plead not guilty to the careless driving charge, and now have a trial date one month from now. I'm not sure if presenting this tire information will help me or not, but in my eyes i took every precaution, new tires, drove slow, and the spin was still uncontrollable and without warning. No private property was damaged, other than my own. Hopefully, they'll dismiss the case.

 

[RickyCRX]

The first trip to the courthouse is just to screen whether or not you're pleading guilty or not. Now that you plead not-guilty, they set a court date. This is the date that is important. If the officer doesn't show up, your case will be dismissed without even a trial or any questions asked.

Ricky

Thanks all for the input. I just got back from court. It was only an arraignment. I plead not guilty to the careless driving charge, and now have a trial date one month from now. I'm not sure if presenting this tire information will help me or not, but in my eyes i took every precaution, new tires, drove slow, and the spin was still uncontrollable and without warning. No private property was damaged, other than my own. Hopefully, they'll dismiss the case.

 

[dcampen]

I just got back from court. It was only an arraignment. I plead not guilty to the careless driving charge,

So, they don't have traffic school in whatever state where this happened?

 

[Bluto]

Thanks all for the input. I just got back from court. It was only an arraignment. I plead not guilty to the careless driving charge, and now have a trial date one month from now. I'm not sure if presenting this tire information will help me or not, but in my eyes i took every precaution, new tires, drove slow, and the spin was still uncontrollable and without warning. No private property was damaged, other than my own. Hopefully, they'll dismiss the case.

Go to court before your trial date and watch. Find a docket with similar cases (minor traffic?). You may not go before the same judge and state's attorney. But you can see what happens, what works, and what does not, if a lawyer will be helpful, etc.

 

[akoda]

I say get a lawyer!

I once had a speeding ticket and found a lawyer at the court the day of my case, paid him $100 and he got the ticket thrown out.

Mike

 

[DaveS]

I would advise you to get some representation for the careless charge if you intend to fight it - even if its just one of these ex-cops groups - you should already have requested disclosure from the prosecution at the arraignment and asked for more time to prepare your case. This will force the police to provide a full report outlining their case against you which will arm you with the arguments you need - the effort of having to do that might make them drop it. In Ontario you would have to fight the careless all the way since it hits insurance premiums as much or more than the accident itself - not sure what your situation is - you might want to check it out with your insurers.

On the question of people sueing each other - just bear in mind if you tell somebody how to disable VSC etc they could well try to sue you from their wheelchair after the event... such is the state of our society - and it's easy say I would never sue but who knows how you would feel if the worst happened? I would suggest for the mods sake in fact that this board does not include commentary on how to make your vehicle unsafe - people can do that via IM or email but I would not want to think of the consequences if somebody finds the instructions here at a later date, has a go, injures themself and then tries to sue the administrators of the board.

 

[RickyCRX]

On the question of people sueing each other - just bear in mind if you tell somebody how to disable VSC etc they could well try to sue you from their wheelchair after the event... such is the state of our society - and it's easy say I would never sue but who knows how you would feel if the worst happened? I would suggest for the mods sake in fact that this board does not include commentary on how to make your vehicle unsafe - people can do that via IM or email but I would not want to think of the consequences if somebody finds the instructions here at a later date, has a go, injures themself and then tries to sue the administrators of the board. [/B]

Oh please... You do a 'mod' to your own vehicle at your own risk, no matter what it is. Most people just want to be able to disable it for off-roading situations. I happen to want to do it for my own personal reasons due to having a 2WD model with sport suspension. The vehicle has a lot more potential than the VSC will let it have.

It would likely be foolish to disable VSC/traction control in the rain, even if the option was there.

Just hearing crap like this about how sue-happy this world is really torques me off. Yet people like myself that are truly affected by one person's stupidy for the rest of my life (a lady that ran a red light and rear-ended me while on my motorcycle, breaking my leg and giving me a plate and 8 screws in my left leg for the rest of my life) can't sue people because even if I got a judgement, I would never be able to collect on it because they didn't have anything to begin with!

The whole legal system in this country is just messed up. Frivolous suits should be thrown out before they even have a chance to tie up the court's time.

Ricky

 

[DaveS]

I agree - people are way too sue-happy and this kind of law suit should be thrown out - often they are but only after the defendant has eaten up a good chunk of change in legal defence. Case in point - a good friend has fruit trees in her back yard - her neighbour asks if she can pick some - go ahead she says. Neighbour brings round her own ladder, climbs up, a branch breaks and she falls out of the tree ending up with a broken back. She sues my friend for $2m for having an unsafe tree - it eventually gets dropped after 12 months of worry and a huge amount of legal costs. It's not the eventual outcome but the anguish it puts people through.

 

[smokingun]

Geez! Sorry this happened to you! I'm not a lawyer and you definitely shouldn't take advice from me or anyone else here on legal issues, but I do have some thoughts:

First, if you had an arraignment, it sounds like you're fighting more than a traffic ticket. Sounds more like reckless driving here in the U.S., which is criminal and can lead to the loss of your license, at least for a while.

It also sounds like you have ample evidence to present that you were extraordinarily safe and conservative. You should mention you couldn't slow below 40mph due to the risk of a rear end collision from a faster driver, and under the "law of competing harms" you were being prudent.

Finally, you have ample evidence to provide to your insurer, the court, AND the tire store, that their failure to follow policy was a strong factor in your accident. Your post has an, "I can't believe it happened," air to it, much like the description of the spin out in Car and Driver. If Michelin's test driver's couldn't prevent an accident against a guardrail, your inability to do so can hardly be called careless. If tire shops generally have a "replace to the rear policy", that is because consumers are not expected to know about this and it has been successfully litigated in court somewhere, establishing precendence for this not being your fault. If this store didn't follow the policy, I think they owe you compensation.

Now, I believe you can't regulate stupidity and there are WAY too many "I spilled hot coffee on me," lawsuits, but it sounds to me like you pay attention to your car and your driving, you care enough to frequent this board, and you still had this happen.

So I WOULD get a lawyer, for whom this is probably a light workout; I WOULD tell my insurer about the tire issue and let them pursue it; and I WOULD ask him to look into some type of compensation from the store.

Dave.

 

[rensho]

I can't believe there is a possible lawsuit over this...
sad country.

 

[TRUST8383]

I can't believe there is a possible lawsuit over this...
sad country.

I never said I was going to sue discount tire co. over this?

However, Even if I wanted to, what would be so absurd about it? You've got people suing over seeing a chicken head in there chicken nuggets. What's that about?

I have a tire co. ignore there company policy of tire installation, and consequently i'm almost killed and my 4runner is totalled, and all of sudden, the notion of even considering a lawsuit is absurd? please, if it had been your family in the truck, You'd probably be singing a different tune. I've called 3 different tire companies, all stated that their policy is to put the new tires in the rear. I even called the discount tire that I went to, and they said the same thing. Why I didn't receive the benefit of this policy is beyond me. And if a lawsuit is what it takes for them enforce this policy and possibly save someone else from going through this, it may be worth it?

anyways, my main concern is my driving record. I'd like to keep it clean, that is all. Any aforementioned lawsuit by others is the least of my worries.

 

[RickyCRX]

I personally find it hard to believe that any properly maintained vehicle with sufficient tread on all tires can just suddenly change its path of travel by 45 degrees at the speed of 45mph regardless of how much water is on the ground. The laws of physics just don't answer how this could happen. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion (in the same direction they are traveling).

I think there's something you're not telling us... It is these types of accidents where a black box recording steering inputs, throttle inputs, and braking inputs might provide a true answer. Blame it on the installation of the tires if you want, but this accident should never have happened.

Don't get me wrong, I am sorry to hear of your loss and glad you weren't injured, but you have to be careful out there. Any single car accident is 100% driver error unless there was some sort of component failure involved.

The frustration people are expressing regarding lawsuits is how people in this country blame bad things that happen to them on others, even if they were solely responsible for their outcome in a given situation.

Ricky

I never said I was going to sue discount tire co. over this?

However, Even if I wanted to, what would be so absurd about it? You've got people suing over seeing a chicken head in there chicken nuggets. What's that about?

I have a tire co. ignore there company policy of tire installation, and consequently i'm almost killed and my 4runner is totalled, and all of sudden, the notion of even considering a lawsuit is absurd? please, if it had been your family in the truck, You'd probably be singing a different tune. I've called 3 different tire companies, all stated that their policy is to put the new tires in the rear. I even called the discount tire that I went to, and they said the same thing. Why I didn't receive the benefit of this policy is beyond me. And if a lawsuit is what it takes for them enforce this policy and possibly save someone else from going through this, it may be worth it?

anyways, my main concern is my driving record. I'd like to keep it clean, that is all. Any aforementioned lawsuit by others is the least of my worries.

 

[DaveS]

The frustration people are expressing regarding lawsuits is how people in this country blame bad things that happen to them on others, even if they were solely responsible for their outcome in a given situation.

Ricky

You may be a little harsh with your other points but I agree with you 100% on this. Every time I see one of those ads for lawyers encouraging people to sue after an auto accident on a %age fee basis, my blood boils..

 

[Kanab]

Congrats on the G35 you will like it. But you will be putting new front tires on the G35 about every 10K miles and new tires on the rear every 25-30K miles. The fronts on the G35 feather and since you can't rotate them it causes a problem since they don't hold toe very well. So you are going to be dealing with new front tires a lot with the G35. I know, I own a 350Z same suspension as the G35 and I have 16K miles on my Z and I'm on my 3rd set of front tires. Nissan provides them for free for the first 2 years so when they started to feather I just got new front tires from the nissan dealer. I will be on my own in the next few months and will keep a closer eye on the alignment and rotate side to side (have to take tires off the rim and rotate since they are one directional tires) that should get me 10-15K miles out of a set of front tires. But the 350Z and G35 has VDC and traction control so as long as you don't turn them off you should be ok. Have fun

 

[Bill42]

That is just it. When you hydroplane, there is a film of water between the tires and the road. Although it is true that vehicles in motion tend to stay in motion - any minor movement to the left or right just from staying in the lane is unchecked. Once it starts to go I'll you can do is hang on.

 

[sharp4runr]

I personally find it hard to believe that any properly maintained vehicle with sufficient tread on all tires can just suddenly change its path of travel by 45 degrees at the speed of 45mph regardless of how much water is on the ground. The laws of physics just don't answer how this could happen. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion (in the same direction they are traveling).

I think there's something you're not telling us... It is these types of accidents where a black box recording steering inputs, throttle inputs, and braking inputs might provide a true answer. Blame it on the installation of the tires if you want, but this accident should never have happened.

Don't get me wrong, I am sorry to hear of your loss and glad you weren't injured, but you have to be careful out there. Any single car accident is 100% driver error unless there was some sort of component failure involved.

Bro, did you not see the video on the Michelin website? Those were professional drivers trying to keep the car on the road and they couldn't...

 

[RickyCRX]

Bro, did you not see the video on the Michelin website? Those were professional drivers trying to keep the car on the road and they couldn't...

Didn't see that one... Got a link?