Not A Good Start For The 335i
- Thread starter Koz
- Start date
Thai
Elite Member
Wow...look at this Edmunds review:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/d...Id=117669?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*
The 335i AUTOMATIC did 0-60 in 4.8 seconds!! The numbers are slightly better or same as a BMW M3! And the test is done with an AUTOMATIC tranny too! So, with a manual, it is likely that it can beat M3 in acceleration tests.
But, i think that i still like the Lexus IS350 and Infiniti G35 because i am still not convince with turbos/superchargers.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/d...Id=117669?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*
The 335i AUTOMATIC did 0-60 in 4.8 seconds!! The numbers are slightly better or same as a BMW M3! And the test is done with an AUTOMATIC tranny too! So, with a manual, it is likely that it can beat M3 in acceleration tests.
But, i think that i still like the Lexus IS350 and Infiniti G35 because i am still not convince with turbos/superchargers.
TRD04RUNNER
New member
Thai said:
That's not good if a new 335I can smoke a new M3!bad on BMW part for make a 3 series that can out run their flagship M/// model!:nono:
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Well, if you read the Edmunds review, then you will see that a Joe Blow did compare his 335i to Edmunds' car. And Joe Blow car was only a smidget lower in boost. Edmunds also pointed out how easy it is to get extra power from 335i's powertrain. Lexus and Infiniti engines will require a lot of work and $$$ to get more power.
And the other performance figures on the 335i are quite impressive...88g around, 68.4 slalom, and 114ft braking. These are pretty impressive of anything under $60K. Also, if you look at the interior noise level, the 335i is very quiet, easily on par with the best of Lexus.
Koz
New member
Thai said:
My point is, these tests/reviews are BS if they're going to tweak the vehicles they send to test. Yes, turning up the boost will easily make more power. It's just like the diesels being tweaked to make an extra 200 hp. I still would rather have a NA engine making 300 hp over a TT making 300 hp. BMW has proved that they will do anything including tweaking a turbo, to simulate a better vehicle. BMW made it a point last year that even though they were down on power their vehicle was better. The rag mags all jumped on that band wagon to support them, including forgetting how to count. BWM shit their pants when the IS kicked their ass and they went against all they professed by sticking twin turbos on. They emphatically stated that turbos and superchargers were a cheap way for their competitors to compete. Now the shoe is on the other foot. What hypocrites!
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz, come on...you're blowing this out of proportions! When i had my BMW M3 2 or so years ago, i heard rumors of BMW making a turbo engine for the next 3-series. So, this was not a last minute decision, Koz. You know that.
"And whether our car's muy rapido 0-60 performance was anomalous or not, the random customer car we dynoed should easily match, and perhaps exceed, BMW's impressive-in-their-own-right performance figures."
Let's look at the dyno numbers...it will tell you everything.
Remembering back to my old BMW M3 days, a 272 rwHP (Joe Blow's 335i, NOT Edmunds' car) on the dyno is quite impressive...easily on par with BMW M3's 333-HP engine! In fact, just now, i searched my old M3 forum and found that most stock M3's dyno at around 270-280 rwHP (most of the time around 270-272 range). So, these acceleration numbers are very believable, Koz. Granted, the M3 has SMG tranny with 0.08 shift time and rear LSD...but the 335i should easily match M3's numbers or maybe a tenth or so behind. And this confirms what Edmunds saw...numbers that are on-par with M3. So, BMW likely did NOT mess with 335i's engine before sending it to Edmunds. Edmunds' car is just a production variation due to turbo technology. Plain and simple.
And from searching the Clublexus, a stock IS350 with a few mods (K&N + Tanabe exhaust) dynoed at 266 rwHP, while most stock IS350s dyno at 258-260 rwHP.
The fact that BMW 335i also has a higher trap speed proves it's HP ratings too...again, easily on-par with BMW M3 numbers...thus, proving again that the official HP/Torque numbers of the 335i are UNDER-rated.
So, what is so hard to believe about 335i's acceleration numbers?? It has more power (per Dyno numbers) than IS350...and thus, it should be faster...not a lot though.
Does any of this matter to me?? Not really. Like you, i like NA engines. I much prefer Lexus and Infiniti's way of making power (via displacement & technology). However, you cannot be blind to the competition's numbers. You can't just randomly accuse BMW of fudging the numbers without facts backing you up. I would personally still pick IS350 over BMW 335i, but there is no reason to bad mouth 335i's numbers.
"And whether our car's muy rapido 0-60 performance was anomalous or not, the random customer car we dynoed should easily match, and perhaps exceed, BMW's impressive-in-their-own-right performance figures."
Let's look at the dyno numbers...it will tell you everything.
Remembering back to my old BMW M3 days, a 272 rwHP (Joe Blow's 335i, NOT Edmunds' car) on the dyno is quite impressive...easily on par with BMW M3's 333-HP engine! In fact, just now, i searched my old M3 forum and found that most stock M3's dyno at around 270-280 rwHP (most of the time around 270-272 range). So, these acceleration numbers are very believable, Koz. Granted, the M3 has SMG tranny with 0.08 shift time and rear LSD...but the 335i should easily match M3's numbers or maybe a tenth or so behind. And this confirms what Edmunds saw...numbers that are on-par with M3. So, BMW likely did NOT mess with 335i's engine before sending it to Edmunds. Edmunds' car is just a production variation due to turbo technology. Plain and simple.
And from searching the Clublexus, a stock IS350 with a few mods (K&N + Tanabe exhaust) dynoed at 266 rwHP, while most stock IS350s dyno at 258-260 rwHP.
The fact that BMW 335i also has a higher trap speed proves it's HP ratings too...again, easily on-par with BMW M3 numbers...thus, proving again that the official HP/Torque numbers of the 335i are UNDER-rated.
So, what is so hard to believe about 335i's acceleration numbers?? It has more power (per Dyno numbers) than IS350...and thus, it should be faster...not a lot though.
Does any of this matter to me?? Not really. Like you, i like NA engines. I much prefer Lexus and Infiniti's way of making power (via displacement & technology). However, you cannot be blind to the competition's numbers. You can't just randomly accuse BMW of fudging the numbers without facts backing you up. I would personally still pick IS350 over BMW 335i, but there is no reason to bad mouth 335i's numbers.
Koz
New member
Thai said:Your conspiracy theory is killing me!!You initially told me that the next BMW M3 with V8 and 400HP was due to IS350. Dude, IS350 is not the reason why the earth revolve around the sun! This was all planned years ago...do you know how long it takes for an average car to go from design to production?? Most take at least 4-6 years...most of the time, the manufacturer starts on the next model the same year that the current model goes into production.
As was proven in the Edmunds test, even without the extra boost (as is the case with Joe Blow's 335i), the 335i makes AT LEAST 10-12 rwHP more than IS350. This will make the 335i significantly faster.
As for whether BMW fudged with the engine is purely speculation. You have no proof of it. If BMW wanted to show off, then why not use an extra 1-2 boost, instead of 1/2??? Why stop there?? But, the point of the Edmunds article was that, EVEN WITHOUT the slight extra boost, the 335i is still a monster and is a class leader in power and acceleration.
As for integrity, let's not even start when talking about Lexus! Lexus has copied other manufacturers so much in design and technology that you should NOT even make that argument!! Do you know why the next gen Toyota Corolla is not out yet??? It's because Toyota has to go back to tune it up after seeing Mazda 3 and Honda Civic.
Let me make myself clear, there is no conspiracy. Your statements about the results for this one review are exactly why I have such a problem with the way this review was conducted. You really don't see that these results were obtained from a vehicle that has been manipulated to produce those results. The 335i came out making basically the same hp and running the same times as the IS. These results were just short of the M3 (I hate to even mention the M3 because you will start putting words in my mouth, I know the M3 is quicker and handles better then the IS, I'm NOT comparing them). Then all of a sudden some of the first 335i models to hit the streets are having catastrophic failures and overheating issues. Then they supply a vehicle for a test that is running a half a second faster to 60 with more boost. I was really surprised when the first numbers were coming out and felt that it fell short of what it should have been. I'm sure BMW will make sure the 335i will be the quickest in the class, it better with twin turbos.
Koz
Koz
New member
Thai
Elite Member
First off, honest question, Koz, do you even understand dyno numbers and trap speed?? Because if you don't, then i understand why you cannot understand the numbers presented to you.
I repeat...What is so hard to believe??!! The 335i in Edmunds test made 273 rwHP...and the one that Edmunds took off the street made 272 rwHP (thus, RULES OUT BMW MANIPULATION!!).
Lexus IS350, on average, makes only 258-260 rwHP. These are DYNO numbers, NOT manufacturer's ratings. Therefore, both 335i dynoed by Edmunds (again, one test car and one off the street) make at least 10 more rwHP than IS350. This is a significant amount of HP.
A BMW M3 stock gets about the same dyno rwHP as 335i. What does this mean?? 335i is making as much HP as BMW M3. BMW is, thus, UNDERRATING their HP/Torque. And guess what?? The 1/4 mile trap speed PROVES it.
You agreed that BMW M3 is faster than IS350, right?? Why?? Because it has 333-HP vs. 306 for IS350. A tiny bit could also be due to LSD and SMG tranny. Nonetheless, M3 is faster than IS350. Well, guess what?! An average BMW 335i (YES, AVERAGE) makes as much HP as M3 while having MORE torque!! All of this explains why a 335i will NOT have a problem keeping up with an M3...and thus, why it will BEAT IS350 in an acceleration race (which was IS350's calling card up until now).
And...again, to point out the obvious data, the 335i ALSO makes more torque than IS350 (over 30 ft-lbs).
Again, what is so hard to swallow?? Your pride in your new car?? It's OK. The IS350 is better than 335i in other ways, such as reliability, quality, durability, and maybe resale value (esp. given turbo issues). However, this time, BMW 335i betters IS350 in all performance measures (acceleration, braking, handling).
Lastly, you talk about integrity of manufacturer's specs, right? Well, up until Lexus IS350, how many of Lexus 0-60 times were considered "optimistic" by actual reviews???? All of them...exception being IS350's numbers. In fact, the new Lexus LS460's quoted time by Lexus is far more optimistic than actual testings! And when SAE came out with the new rating protocols, what happened to all of Toyota/Lexus HP/Torque ratings?? They all dropped by a significant amount! So, let's not talk about fudging data and "integrity" without looking at your own brand. You need to open your mind to other brands and accept pros & cons of each.
I repeat...What is so hard to believe??!! The 335i in Edmunds test made 273 rwHP...and the one that Edmunds took off the street made 272 rwHP (thus, RULES OUT BMW MANIPULATION!!).
Lexus IS350, on average, makes only 258-260 rwHP. These are DYNO numbers, NOT manufacturer's ratings. Therefore, both 335i dynoed by Edmunds (again, one test car and one off the street) make at least 10 more rwHP than IS350. This is a significant amount of HP.
A BMW M3 stock gets about the same dyno rwHP as 335i. What does this mean?? 335i is making as much HP as BMW M3. BMW is, thus, UNDERRATING their HP/Torque. And guess what?? The 1/4 mile trap speed PROVES it.
You agreed that BMW M3 is faster than IS350, right?? Why?? Because it has 333-HP vs. 306 for IS350. A tiny bit could also be due to LSD and SMG tranny. Nonetheless, M3 is faster than IS350. Well, guess what?! An average BMW 335i (YES, AVERAGE) makes as much HP as M3 while having MORE torque!! All of this explains why a 335i will NOT have a problem keeping up with an M3...and thus, why it will BEAT IS350 in an acceleration race (which was IS350's calling card up until now).
And...again, to point out the obvious data, the 335i ALSO makes more torque than IS350 (over 30 ft-lbs).
Again, what is so hard to swallow?? Your pride in your new car?? It's OK. The IS350 is better than 335i in other ways, such as reliability, quality, durability, and maybe resale value (esp. given turbo issues). However, this time, BMW 335i betters IS350 in all performance measures (acceleration, braking, handling).
Lastly, you talk about integrity of manufacturer's specs, right? Well, up until Lexus IS350, how many of Lexus 0-60 times were considered "optimistic" by actual reviews???? All of them...exception being IS350's numbers. In fact, the new Lexus LS460's quoted time by Lexus is far more optimistic than actual testings! And when SAE came out with the new rating protocols, what happened to all of Toyota/Lexus HP/Torque ratings?? They all dropped by a significant amount! So, let's not talk about fudging data and "integrity" without looking at your own brand. You need to open your mind to other brands and accept pros & cons of each.
Thai
Elite Member
Koz, this review is one of the first true review of the BMW 335i with REAL data. Again, Edmunds did the right thing and TOOK A 335i OFF THE STREETS..and the dyno numbers don't lie. Did you even read that part of the review??
The numbers add up...and it makes sense.
I love how you don't care about 335i being faster...yet, in an earlier thread about IS350, all you mentioned was how much faster to 60 mph in the IS than 330i!! (Remember, you mentioned something about "real world performance".) And you mentioned above about trap speed doesn't win drag races...hmmm. So, looks like you do indeed give a rat's ass about acceleration times.
(Remember, i even had to remind you that a sports car is more than just 0-60 times....)
You raced, yet you can't figure out dyno HP and trap speed?? I don't get it. I admit that i am a neophyte with racing, but even I understood the numbers!
Also, do you see a BMW in my garage?? Do you see me lusting after a BMW?? Wouldn't a true BMW "enthusiast" have a BMW in his garage?? My lust?? A Jeep Rubicon maybe...a Porsche Cayman maybe, but no BMW thank you. I got my experience with BMW and do not want to go back there. But, i am also NOT blind to data...i am also not bias.
The numbers add up...and it makes sense.
I love how you don't care about 335i being faster...yet, in an earlier thread about IS350, all you mentioned was how much faster to 60 mph in the IS than 330i!!
(Remember, you mentioned something about "real world performance".) And you mentioned above about trap speed doesn't win drag races...hmmm. So, looks like you do indeed give a rat's ass about acceleration times. (Remember, i even had to remind you that a sports car is more than just 0-60 times....)You raced, yet you can't figure out dyno HP and trap speed?? I don't get it. I admit that i am a neophyte with racing, but even I understood the numbers!
Also, do you see a BMW in my garage?? Do you see me lusting after a BMW?? Wouldn't a true BMW "enthusiast" have a BMW in his garage?? My lust?? A Jeep Rubicon maybe...a Porsche Cayman maybe, but no BMW thank you. I got my experience with BMW and do not want to go back there. But, i am also NOT blind to data...i am also not bias.
Koz
New member
Thai said:Koz, this review is one of the first true review of the BMW 335i with REAL data. Again, Edmunds did the right thing and TOOK A 335i OFF THE STREETS..and the dyno numbers don't lie. Did you even read that part of the review??
The numbers add up...and it makes sense.
I love how you don't care about 335i being faster...yet, in an earlier thread about IS350, all you mentioned was how much faster to 60 mph in the IS than 330i!!
You raced, yet you can't figure out dyno HP and trap speed?? I don't get it. I admit that i am a neophyte with racing, but even I understood the numbers!
Also, do you see a BMW in my garage?? Do you see me lusting after a BMW?? Wouldn't a true BMW "enthusiast" have a BMW in his garage?? My lust?? A Jeep Rubicon maybe...a Porsche Cayman maybe, but no BMW thank you. I got my experience with BMW and do not want to go back there. But, i am also NOT blind to data...i am also not bias.
I see you only read and comprehend what you want to. Edmunds clearly admits there was a 19 hp (not peak) difference (1/2 lbs boost) and they can't account for it. Why do you continue to say they are the same?
Koz
