Octane. and how it effects your truck.

[Jeremy556]

My requests for help with data logging... have gone completely unanswered so far..

I guess I missed that, was it in your SC install thread? What data are you looking for?

I have about 14 days of logs from a couple years ago when I was closer to stock with the following information on a 3 second collection interval:
GPS Time
Device Time
Longitude
Latitude
GPS Speed (Meters/second)
Horizontal Dilution of Precision
Altitude
Bearing
G(x)
G
G(z)
G(calibrated)
Ambient air temp(°F)
Barometric pressure (from vehicle)(psi)
Engine Coolant Temperature(°F)
Engine Load(%)
Engine RPM(rpm)
Timing Advance(°)
Voltage (Control Module)(V)
Relative Throttle Position(%)
Actual engine % torque(%)
Coolant Temperature_7C0(°F)
Engine Coolant Temp_7C4(°F)
Engine Load(Absolute)(%)
Engine Oil Temperature(°F)
GPS Altitude(ft)
Relative Accelerator Pedal Position(%)
Speed (GPS)(mph)
Speed (OBD)(mph)
Transmission Temp (Converter)(°F)
Transmission Temp (pan)(°F)

 

[wfo9]

I guess I missed that, was it in your SC install thread? What data are you looking for?

This was the post. Just trying to get some data to compare...

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/246102-favor-please-someone-tis.html

Not even sure I have the right parameters listed yet. Just trying to get started and use a common file format.... I may do another request for logs post, once I get a better understanding of things. I've learned quite a bit so far, but just scratching the surface and the data rates are so low.. it is tricky at best. Each parameter slows it down, so trying to minimize. Hoping to find better logging solutions... but I think we may be limited....

 

[Jeremy556]

This was the post. Just trying to get some data to compare...

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/246102-favor-please-someone-tis.html

Not even sure I have the right parameters listed yet. Just trying to get started and use a common file format.... I may do another request for logs post, once I get a better understanding of things. I've learned quite a bit so far, but just scratching the surface and the data rates are so low.. it is tricky at best. Each parameter slows it down, so trying to minimize. Hoping to find better logging solutions... but I think we may be limited....

I have never had any luck doing data logging in TIS. Not sure if it is my crappy cable or what, but I have never gone more than 15-20 seconds logging before TIS loses connection and has to be re-connected.

 

[wfo9]

I have never had any luck doing data logging in TIS. Not sure if it is my crappy cable or what, but I have never gone more than 15-20 seconds logging before TIS loses connection and has to be re-connected.

Mine seems to work fine as long as I use a custom list and keep the parameters down.

I'm running version 12.00.127 inside of a windows 8 32bit VM using VMWare Workstation Player 12. I posted a thread on how I set it up a while back. I was having lots of trouble getting it to run until I isolated it like that and I also have the latest cable firmware I think.

I can't seem to get it to run the dual data list... mode and it does disconnect once or twice when I first connect.. but after that it is pretty solid. Just slow sample rates (but that is probably the protocol itself since each pid is a different frame). Super chatty.

 

[LandCruiser]

True. And since I'll never use this motor to 100% of its life, I'd happily trade a 25% increase in hp/tq for a 25% reduction in its life. If only it were that easy ...

Yeah, my luck will be it explodes the first time I put it over 5000 rpm.

 

[Donkey]

I have a lot going on in life. Naturally, I seek time-wasting distractions such as internet forums, 87 vs. 93 octane, and reading about superchargers. I found this thread at 1/4th of a tank remaining of my 212th tank of 87 octane. What the hell, let's procrastinate and let cognitive dissonance take over - 93 octane is useless, and it won't change a thing, this tuner is just doing product marketing. I added timing, throttle position, command throttle position, engine load, short and long-term 2 trims to page 2 on my ultragauge and watched almost 100 miles of mixed city/hwy driving.

I watched my trims and timing, at WOT near 100% engine load uphill I saw consistent 14 degrees of timing closer to redline. Drove about 20 miles past 0 miles remaining, filled up with 21.6 gallons of 93 last night for the first time. After 75 miles I repeated WOT on the same stretch of I-24 and saw 24-25 degrees of timing at the same RPM in the same conditions, identical intake temp. This is consistent with the observations of the tuner referenced in the original post, which I did not initially believe. I'll run 87 on the next tank and would expect it to drop back down if the hypothesis (93 octane will provide for more timing under load and higher RPM's) is correct. I need to watch it for longer, but it looks slightly leaner during normal driving.

It certainly feels peppier, but that subjective feeling is useless. 10-12 degrees of extra timing is as close to objective data as I can get without full access to the ECU. I don't want access to the ECU either, I've run a speed density tune chasing the 9's in a previous life, that stuff gives me the creeps now, but I'm always curious.

The additional timing and resulting power will undoubtedly come in handy towing our camper around the Tennessee hills.

Your mileage may vary, my ultragauge may be wrong, and 93 octane may give you more power.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW - I think this is pretty interesting information. thumb: to [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] for starting the thread) It probably won't change what I do, but it's a lot more interesting to me than whether I should buy black or bronze wheels to color match my overland decals. I loaned out my OBD2 reader dongle and haven't seen it for a while, so I can't do much right now in terms of data collection. I am surprised that it adjusts to higher octane fuel so quickly.

My guess is that it's constantly optimizing for peak cyl pressure around 20* after TDC like the chart below and it uses the knock sensor to measure where the threshold is on a constant basis for whatever fuel it's using. Presumably there's a limit though at around 25* or whatever the optimal spark would be for the engine design. Some go as far as 40* BTDC, so I'd be curious if 100 octane ends up advancing timing even further.

 

[philsey]

I've been following this thread .... and I'm thinking "WTH, I'll give some octane a few tanks to try, who knows, might be interesting."

So, on the way home I stop at my usual Shell station. 87 is $2.39, 93 is $3.39.

Well, I ain't THAT curious.

 

[amalik]

I have a lot going on in life. Naturally, I seek time-wasting distractions such as internet forums, 87 vs. 93 octane, and reading about superchargers. I found this thread at 1/4th of a tank remaining of my 212th tank of 87 octane. What the hell, let's procrastinate and let cognitive dissonance take over - 93 octane is useless, and it won't change a thing, this tuner is just doing product marketing. I added timing, throttle position, command throttle position, engine load, short and long-term 2 trims to page 2 on my ultragauge and watched almost 100 miles of mixed city/hwy driving.

I watched my trims and timing, at WOT near 100% engine load uphill I saw consistent 14 degrees of timing closer to redline. Drove about 20 miles past 0 miles remaining, filled up with 21.6 gallons of 93 last night for the first time. After 75 miles I repeated WOT on the same stretch of I-24 and saw 24-25 degrees of timing at the same RPM in the same conditions, identical intake temp. This is consistent with the observations of the tuner referenced in the original post, which I did not initially believe. I'll run 87 on the next tank and would expect it to drop back down if the hypothesis (93 octane will provide for more timing under load and higher RPM's) is correct. I need to watch it for longer, but it looks slightly leaner during normal driving.

It certainly feels peppier, but that subjective feeling is useless. 10-12 degrees of extra timing is as close to objective data as I can get without full access to the ECU. I don't want access to the ECU either, I've run a speed density tune chasing the 9's in a previous life, that stuff gives me the creeps now, but I'm always curious.

The additional timing and resulting power will undoubtedly come in handy towing our camper around the Tennessee hills.

Your mileage may vary, my ultragauge may be wrong, and 93 octane may give you more power.

Watch the road.

 

[Donkey]

Well, I ain't THAT curious.

I would have spent $1,738 more using premium for the past ~71,000 miles. A dollar per gallon higher is double what it is here in TN.

Watch the road.

No, this was I-24 in the desert in mexico, I just spun the wheel and floored it.

Of course, I watched the road; you've apparently never driven in Nashville traffic. I'm the only person who does. The ultragauge was in my line of sight.

 

[Baystate4Runner]

...So, on the way home I stop at my usual Shell station. 87 is $2.39, 93 is $3.39.

Well, I ain't THAT curious.

Wow they add a full Dollar in Illinois.
Shell here near Boston has 87 for $2.39 and 93 for $2.89...just 50c for the curious people.

 

[wfo9]

I want to mention this again. Because, this community really needs more data to better understand these trucks.

This will be the best $20 you could spend on it.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/243881-tis-install-guide.html

I've mentioned it before.. but your truck won't even go into 4wd if a single CEL is set. Also, many of the 4wd functions (like ATRAC) will degrade or stop working without ever telling you anything. You can only see the issue with a module specific scan.. generic OBD won't cut it for that stuff.

This community is good. but when it comes to actual knowledge about how these trucks work under the covers.. we have so much to learn. And there is benefit if we crowed source and share instead of constantly discussing what 5100 settings are best for 2.5" of lift. LOL

 

[catrains]

The problem with Toyota vehicles like these is , I have not found any tuner to change the software.. the Diablo tuner works on many vehicles. family member has one used on Dodge.. can also be used on my GM truck and other makes but not Toyota ..

the tuner does work BUT you have to be careful on how to change the software of the PCM programing as the engine can blow up..

using higher octane this tuner can increase HP by changing the software . or you can set it up to increase MPG . NOT TOYOTA !

 

[wfo9]

The problem with Toyota vehicles like these is , I have not found any tuner to change the software.. the Diablo tuner works on many vehicles. family member has one used on Dodge.. can also be used on my GM truck and other makes but not Toyota ..

the tuner does work BUT you have to be careful on how to change the software of the PCM programing as the engine can blow up..

using higher octane this tuner can increase HP by changing the software . or you can set it up to increase MPG . NOT TOYOTA !

Not sure how your statement relates to the topic at hand. It's mostly about the factory Tune and how it reacts to octane via knock detection.

There are ways to tune the factory ECU, but it is early on compared to other mfgs and only available via mail order at the moment... and not really well understood for the 1grfe yet. Not sure how they got in.. but they did and more options will leak as time goes on.

 

[catrains]

Not sure how your statement relates to the topic at hand. It's mostly about the factory Tune and how it reacts to octane via knock detection.

There are ways to tune the factory ECU, but it is early on compared to other mfgs and only available via mail order at the moment... and not really well understood for the 1grfe yet. Not sure how they got in.. but they did and more options will leak as time goes on.

toyota PCM programing does appear to be a difficult game .. It would be very easy to use a tuner like Diablo on a toyota very easy if it is created .. you ever check this tuner out or go to those forums on how it works/effects vehicle power ,shift points,MPG on other vehicles ? if we could get a tool to work on toyota then we would know much about this software toyota uses and how we could change the settings .

 

[mcox522]

toyota PCM programing does appear to be a difficult game .. It would be very easy to use a tuner like Diablo on a toyota very easy if it is created .. you ever check this tuner out or go to those forums on how it works/effects vehicle power ,shift points,MPG on other vehicles ? if we could get a tool to work on toyota then we would know much about this software toyota uses and how we could change the settings .

I believe that the software is NOT open source, so there is no way to modify it because it is proprietary. Or am I missing something?

 

[calcrc]

I by no means am no engineer, but I have tried 94 octane and regular 87 octane and I would like to share.

I would rather spend a little more on 94 fuel and get more mileage out of the truck and have the power I need when I step on the gas pedal rather than put cheap 87 fuel and get lower gas mileage and not have the power I need when I step on it, be it for when changing lanes or needing to get in the fast lane on the highway.

Take is as you want, as far as reliability its a Toyota and no it is not a race car and yes 87 fuel will do just fine. It all comes down to how you feel about it.

I have tried both and I don't mind spending more on 94 octane it makes me feel better lol. Yes you can put cheap gas and you get less power and mileage and yes you can put 94 octane and you get more mileage. It is not a race car by far ! But be it as it is you can see a difference on how the motor runs and performance for what its worth.

 

[wfo9]

I believe that the software is NOT open source, so there is no way to modify it because it is proprietary. Or am I missing something?

No MFG has an open source ECU. But people get the decryption keys and the calibration data layout is usually leaked out by insiders. Then someone builds tools to download, edit, upload.

To be clear. There are 3 parts to the ECU.
- The hardware (I think ours is Denso)
- The ECU OS (usually a joint effort between hardware mfg and auto mfg)
- The calibration data (very vehicle specific, and done by the auto mfg)

The tuning software usually only modifies the calibration data. The people who do ECU calibration are not programmers... they are calibrators. Tuning software does not typically change the actual OS/Software... it changes the data it reads to run the motor and come up with the final spark, fuel.....

It is possible to rewrite the OS itself also, but that is not typically part of tuning.

Anyway, all of it is proprietary. It just depends on how much has leaked and how much the mfg wants to support the aftermarket....Toyota is a very small almost non-existent performance market compared to others like GM, Dodge, BMW...... That is why there is so little understood. But they use a lot of the same suppliers like Denso.. So stuff is already out there at the hardware level.

 

[catrains]

when you use a Diablo programmer like the T1000 the device uploads the OEM software ... then after that you download the Diablo tune into the PCM... that is how it works..

so for some reason you bring your dodge/GM vehicle to dealership for any work well , you have to install the uploaded OEM software back into the PCM or the tuner will not work , when you get the vehicle back.. this is communicated very fully by this tuner company ..

family member screwed up went though the process but did not check that it was actually put back to OEM software.. LOL..that was a PITA..

this device will change so much as I said before it will destroy the engine if your an idiot...

the tune forums on these is how to get educated on this type programing/tune ...NOT this forum that is for sure !

as was mentioned I want to lift my 4runner what should I do ???

that is what this forum is OCD on ..

you will never get any info on this tuning here , on the engine and transmission..

 

[1jzgte]

I by no means am no engineer, but I have tried 94 octane and regular 87 octane and I would like to share.

I would rather spend a little more on 94 fuel and get more mileage out of the truck and have the power I need when I step on the gas pedal rather than put cheap 87 fuel and get lower gas mileage and not have the power I need when I step on it, be it for when changing lanes or needing to get in the fast lane on the highway.

Take is as you want, as far as reliability its a Toyota and no it is not a race car and yes 87 fuel will do just fine. It all comes down to how you feel about it.

I have tried both and I don't mind spending more on 94 octane it makes me feel better lol. Yes you can put cheap gas and you get less power and mileage and yes you can put 94 octane and you get more mileage. It is not a race car by far ! But be it as it is you can see a difference on how the motor runs and performance for what its worth.

Same here. I recently put in costco 91 octane in the 4runner just to see if there would be a difference and by golly the truck definitely has more pep to it. I understand that the truck is still running on a blend of 87/91 because i've done a couple tanks of 91. Trying to accomplish a couple things here:

A. Increase mpg (doubtful it'd help)
B. Increased power for towing as we are looking for a travel trailer

Nothing scientific here, just sharing my thoughts. I'd hook up my techstream but I wouldnt even know my way around the software. However, I can program replacement remotes like no other!