Off Road Etiquette

[adkinsadam1]

So I have a question. If I am heading up a very narrow shelf road and right in the middle another car comes my direction in front of me, what do I do? Thanks a lot! I'm getting a little concerned about that because I'm about to take my 4runner over this:

YIKES!! Do you think a 4runner could get by that safely?

 

[XJeepguy]

In the world of wheelin' , that aint narrow . I was on a trail Sunday that was a little wider than my Runner , on the side of a mountain , 5500 ft. up.

 

[jsmarine]

genral rule of thumb is, traffic going uphill has the right of way.

 

[Mr. Leary]

genral rule of thumb is, traffic going uphill has the right of way.

This is true, and is always the case due to the inherent danger in backing down a hill.

The spot in the picture should be no problem, but it will definitely get your blood circulating!

 

[ric]

genral rule of thumb is, traffic going uphill has the right of way.

X2 BUT,,,,,, both groups have to consider who has the "easist" least dangerous, place to pull over.

that is Webster Pass, and you can see if anyone is going up OR down, so someone will have to wait..

That little washout or hole is scary, our group was the first group to discovery it, there is a long/railroad tie but DO NOT rely or drove on it, it WILL give way

Just to give you and idea of how wide it is:

and looking down:

we did make it, IIRC 5 rigs..

Off Road Etiquette:
Off-Road Etiquette 101

Trail Etiquette - Michigan Off-Road Vehicle Handbook

Off Road Trail Etiquette

LOTS of information about this topic online..

Google is GODs assistance, ask him, lol

 

[jsmarine]

agreed, its a general rule of thumb, but sometimes its not the best plan. And I cant see the pictures, Im a work, but since someone mentioned Webster pass, I now know what kind of terrain we are talking about, I have been there, and its not too bad, and you can see other people coming which helps in finding a good spot to pass each other.

Side note: Another fun trail I like to do in that area is after you cross the creek, you can turn right and head up to the Cashier mine, its a fun trail. Can be a little tricky in places, but fun and can be done with stock vehicles. If you keep going past the mine, which I have not done in probably 10 years it does get a little more chalenging if I remember, especially if you do meet oncoming!

 

[CSL]

Dang! You beat me to it Ric. I have pics from last weekend of me passing that. It is much more washed out now and the timber is down the hill. Ill post the pics when I get back to the office. Don't take that one lightly.

 

[adkinsadam1]

Gosh well so you guys think a stock 4runner can get over that without tumbling? Well what if it's wet? I'm headed up there this weekend there is a chance of rain.

 

[XJeepguy]

What are the dates of these two pictures ? The first one you posted looks like a grader made a pass through there on the right hand side ( looking at the picture ) , the second appears much more narrow . Night and day difference !

 

[CSL]

first: There's a great forum with lots of great Colorado local 4wheelers at...

RM4wd.org

I posted a thread there on Sunday after going over Webster Pass. Here is the thread, but I think you will have to register first.

RM-4wd • Login


If your not interested in another forum, I will still repost my first post and last post right here for your. You miss the fun discussion in between though.

First Post: (you will notice how great the folks on this forum are right away...see how fast member "Glen" responded to my question...of course I had to go and prove him wrong! ha!


I was camping off of Chihuahua trail this weekend (outside Montazuma, Peru Creek) with some friends in a stock Tundra. I posted Friday morning, 1 hr before leaving if anyone new if the Tundra would be able to get over Webster Pass, so I could show my friends a cool offroad connection between Keystone and 285. Glen, the awesome friend he is, posted the statement below in response to my question. I saw it from my Droid Sunday afternoon when we left Peru Creek, got to Montezuma rd. and had 3G coverage.

Forget it dude. There's no way he, you or anyone is making Webster. There is still a massive snowdrift over 20 feet deep, washout making the trail narrow, and a rock nearly the size of a quad runner that fell off the mountain and is now blocking the trail. It's going to be many more weeks or months if it opens at all this year.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Oh and just in case you didn't know you can't run Red Cone in reverse. It's a one way trail.

Much to our disappointment I asked if my friends wanted to just go to the top of Webster pass and come back down the same way. The 4wheeling bug has apparently bit my friend so they said sure.

We got to the pass and sure enough, there was a big snow drift, that only ATV's could pass. So after watching about 1/2 a dozen folks hop out of their rigs, check out the drift, shake their heads in disappointment and go down the montezuma side, I grabbed my shovel. After a few minutes other folks jumped in to help with their hands and feet and the little campfire shovel I had. At one point a nice ATV driver took the large shovel from me to give me a little break. It was a really cool moment of trail comradery.

Here is how it looked...just before we passed and went down handcart gulch: :rockin:

I didn't skimp on the shoveling either, here is the Chevy Tahoe that made it past the clearing we made.

The ATV driver took some pics of us passing the drift and braving the very tippy pass by a serious washout, but they are on a different camera, and the cord to get the pics off is at work. I will post them this week.


So my friends, I am happy to announce that Webster Pass is officially open for the season!! We didn't see the big boulder Glen mentioned. The washout is definetly not for the novice driver. The stock tahoe got past it, but in talking to the guy it was his wife's car, and he spoke of his built jeep.

Enjoy the Red Cone/Handcart Gulch loop, my friends!! Yes, I am proud to have cleared the way!! :smile dance: :rockin:

MIDDLE POST (parts won't make sense to you, not seeing the whole thread, but the pic is good)

Here is how it looked before we dug it out...just barely enough room for an ATV to get by. It's amazing what just a few weeks of sunshine did to that drift!

Yeah, and shoveling had a way better reward than lumping those darn shingles...4wheeling!!

LAST POST: (with the other pics)

Here are the other pics I promised.

Passing by the drift...plenty of room

Getting tippy around the washout (or "hole" as Ric was saying). Yeah, it was a little scary, but not that bad. You can see that I opted to get more tippy and far up on the rock on the side. This put me a good 12 inches away from the edge. Had I not, I would have been on the side of the rock putting pressure out toward the edge and I would have been closer to the edge where it was loose and could collapse. I felt pretty good knowing my tippy limitations (Thank you Moab!), so I went for that approach. I just kept thinking...a Tahoe just made it past this...

You should ask yourself how confident you are in your wheeling abilities, understanding your tippy maximums, and keeping it cool under pressure. Passing the washout was even a bit sketchy for me, and while I am not "expert" 4wheeler, I am no spring chicken to it either. I also know my rig pretty well (tippy maximum).

However, there is still major risk. If I had lost a bead on my front driver tire, snapped a ball joint, or any other freak event at that moment, my whole family might be at the bottom of red cone. Of course...a freak event like that at the worst possible time, problem means God wanted us then anyway...

You can easily get up Webster pass from the Montezuma side with no sketchyness. If you are camping on the 285 side of the pass, do not go up Red Cone unless you are totally prepared to go down Handcart, otherwise you will have to go down the other side to montezuma/Keystone and it will be a long highway drive to get around to 285 and back to camp.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I was just there 3 days ago and will be happy to give you any advice. NOTE: a stock tahoe went down Handcart before me, but it was a skilled driver

 

[adkinsadam1]

I guess a better question would be - Is it safer to do the decent from Red Cone or go by this washout area?

 

[CSL]

I guess a better question would be - Is it safer to do the decent from Red Cone or go by this washout area?

I got your PM, but can't respond now. I will respond to you tonight. Do you mind if I copy your specific questions into this thread and answer them here? I think they would benefit other folks, and that seems good to me!

 

[adkinsadam1]

Go ahead! Copy away!

 

[CSL]

Here are my responses to your questions/concerns:

You mentioned your dad had experience 4wheeling. Ask him to get out and spot you if your concerned. Don't do anything you don't feel comfortable with...a bad frame of mind can lead to mistakes!

I don't know exactly how far my 2006 4runner limited can lean over without tipping... but based on your pictures I THINK my 4runner can handle that.

I would agree that as long as you don't go too far up the side (which would be more than you would NEED to), you will not have tipping problems. However, me telling you that does not make it okay. YOU have to feel okay with the lean so you don't freak out or anything. Have you driven on many sidewalls?

I'm not doing red cone. I am going from 285 up to the top of webster and back down to 285. So I will be making the pass twice.

Why not go over the pass from the other side? You get to drive over loveland pass in the summer on the way to get to Montezuma! As far as Red Cone, it was a little stechy coming down the back side when I did it before, but the washout below that side of webster pass was there scaryiest part. It wasn't as scary this time, but I am a more comfortable driver now.

what if it is raining? Will it still be safe to do?

The shelf road portion is not really that long. I don't think I would want to do that washout in the rain, there would be a lot of water flowing there! I would probably wait out the thunderstorm to do that part...

If I get up to the washout and decide "NO WAY!" will I have to do it anyway or is there any way I can get out of it?

You can back up down to the last switchback and turn around, but it will be a pain, most likely. That also depends on how good you are backing up. I saw my friend this weekend backing up his truck and I couldn't believe the trouble he was having, so I can't really say. I would not really enjoy backing up down that trail, but I have only run it from the top down.

on the Handcart Gulch Trail, what is the status of the boggy spot?

One side was easier than the other. The harder side was a big deep muddy water hole. It was a pretty tall shelf into an unknown pit, so I took the other side. You happen to be in luck, because I took pictures of it from the top and the bottom!

Here I am in front of the deep shelf looking down the trail

Here I am looking back up the trail at the water pit and shelf.

Hope this helps you out! :thumb3:

 

[adkinsadam1]

CSL you are unbelievably helpful! Thanks a lot! Well, I think that it's not worth destroying a third vehicle on the washout area so I will turn around at the switchback before it. In case you're wondering about the other two vehicles... earlier this year I was driving the 4runner and it hailed on me softball sized and it was in the shop for a month. Then, while we had the rental, I was driving on a wet highway and something ran out in front of me and I swerved and lost control and smashed into the median - totaling the car. So my punishments were pretty fierce. They've just ended and I don't want to do anything stupid! And just for the record, when I did the beginning of Handcart last year, the boggy spot was MUCH worse! You can see the picture below.

 

[Ron Helmuth]

good choice to avoid that

That Webster Pass washout is not to be taken lightly. I did it last fall -descending from the Montezuma side and frankly would not do it again.

Pics can be a bit misleading-yes I am wondering also when that picture in the original post was taken-the rock is seemingly no longer there(?) (man with outstretched arms) uphill side of roadway seems much wider than CSLs just last weekend(?)

CSL you got some cajones to do that with stuff loaded on the roof rack. I would have had the family walk past that section and picked them up on the downhill side.

I actually ended up with my drivers side rear tire in the washout hole and was quite glad to have the rear locker available and engaged to pull me up and out of there. That was with a spotter but I was puckered up big time. Just thinking of it and seeing CSLs photos gives me heart flutter...

That rock on the uphill side does cause extreme "off camber" tippiness. Personally I can't believe the road is even open to full size rigs, it is just a matter of time before someone makes a fatal mistake in that section.

Wise choice adkinsadam1, sure you might be just fine, but then again it could go terribly wrong too.

The vehicle traveling uphill does have the right of way-but you have to be very flexible on this also. If you are traveling uphill and have the ability to move over and let the other vehicle by -then you should do so. Backing uphill is not easy either, and particularly if the descending vehicle is only 2wd. But a 2wd vehicle has no business being on that stretch of road whatsoever.

I saw this rule of etiquette myself about 3 years ago on Webster-before this washout ever occurred. A Tacoma coming downhill backed up for me probably about a quarter mile to give us clearance. Darn nice driver and he simply shrugged his shoulders when I got out of my ride to shake his hand for doing so. Went above and beyond the call of duty to abide by this simple rule of trail etiquette. My sons were very impressed this young man did so rather than simply trying to "squeeze by" as possible.

Red Cone is another one I have yet to try, and it may be several more years until I work up the nerve to do so. If your 06 has hill descent control feature then I would say go for it. Otherwise the wash boarding (severe ripples of the road surface) I have seen pictured on that final hill could get ugly really fast.

Mosquito Pass south of Breckenridge-west of town of Alma (Mrs Garrett of HBO's Deadwood?)-is also just now opened. I did my snow digging on that last Sunday and some Jeep guys had already carved a path through it. It is a lot less scary than Webster's washout but rockier...

 

[CSL]

CSL you got some cajones to do that with stuff loaded on the roof rack.

Don't think I didn't consider the effects of the roof boxes, but they only have sleeping bags and thermarests inside...backpacking weight. They don't weigh much at all.

 

[Duhockey]

In the world of wheelin' , that aint narrow . I was on a trail Sunday that was a little wider than my Runner , on the side of a mountain , 5500 ft. up.

yeah, theres a spot on Saxon mtn where the boulder thats in the middle forces you to a ledge with only inches to spare.

that one isnt nearly as washed out as the section on Webster, but i think its higher.

as far as etiquette, I would say that common sense should prevail, when it comes to smaller vehicles like ATV/4wheelers, I tend to always completely stop and let them pass no matter which way on the mtn Im headed, and I cb the people that are with me to let them know to stop also and how many ATVs there are coming so no one comes around a corner and kills someone

Story about etiquette, I went to try and go up to Chinns Lake on Memorial Day and you could tell there were alot of regular Joes trying to go on trails they werent supposed to. Well, we came to a section with some deeper snow and some stock SUVs were parked right in the middle of the trail cuz they couldnt get past the snow. It never occured to them that people in other vehicles could make it past where they were, now, there was enough room on the side for me to squeak by the skinniest part of the trail in some deep snow, but I had to be super careful not to slide to the side while trying to get by them.

Moral of the story is... if you park in the middle of the trail, Im going over or around you no matter the cost to your your vehicle! :snacker: get the popcorn ready!! :jk:

 

[marked]

Where is the washout on Webster Pass? If you take it from 285, go over Red Cone, and then down to Montezuma do you need to go past it?

Thanks.

 

[CSL]

Where is the washout on Webster Pass? If you take it from 285, go over Red Cone, and then down to Montezuma do you need to go past it?

Thanks.

No. it's only on the 285 side of webster pass. Red cone drops you on the top of webster.'

A concern is if your camping on the 285 side and you take Red Cone, because you have to pass the washout to get back to camp. The backside of Red Cone is one way.