Offroad drivetrain durability as tire size increases

[honda250xtitan]

I forgot to mention, I bent the UCA through bolt somehow. This was post Baja, just doing a u turn on a forest service trail in northern az. so nothing crazy, i got the front passenger tire way up on the bank and had the wheel cranked all the way. Since then I had a constant, and INSANELY annoying popping sound. replaced alot of stuff, finally replaced the through bolt and it went away. Kind of seems like a rare thing

 

[bigdaddy2021]

Please continue to add input into this thread. Love to hear your experiences, even if it's just to add a vote to the poll.

Especially those folks who are running 35"+ sized tires since there's so little info in that area currently.

Happy new year.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

Some updates for us, since starting this thread.

1. Have a good complement of on-board spares now. CV axle, inner/outer tie rods, CV boot kit, L/R-hand Diff-side oil seals.
2. Upgrading our Lower rear links soon - still deciding on which brand
3. Ordered a C4 diff armor set. My reasoning is that our reardriveshaft is custom - can't just swap someone else's in - worth losing a bit of clearance to protect, IMO. the KDSS version seems very solidly mounted.

I feel like there is some very good data in the thread and also some great data gathered via the poll. Hope it ends up helping someone with their build plans. I know it's helped us.

Cheers!

 

[Inv4drZm]

4th gen here so didn't vote in the poll but drivetrain is similar to 5th gen.

I upgraded rear diff to ECGS dana 60 but have stock everything else. Stock +2 CVs.

Have 37s and have wheeled hard in Colorado (blanca peak), Moab, and Cali (first part of fordyce, Rubicon), no breakages.

Broke the original rear diff as soon as I put 35s on even after babying it up an obstacle. Factory crush washer design is weak and I've seen 4th gens break original rear diffs all the time on 35s. 5th gen rear diff seems stronger.

Have never broken a CV, driveshaft, or even tie rod. Tires have ate my fender flares though.

 

[mrblah]

i had to install a transmission cooler with 34's.

I thought regear was enough to keep my transmission happy, it wasn't enough.

Good news is...my transmission is very happy now with a cooler.

Just food for thought.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

i had to install a transmission cooler with 34's.

I thought regear was enough to keep my transmission happy, it wasn't enough.

Good news is...my transmission is very happy now with a cooler.

Just food for thought.

Very good suggestion - have a link or have some more info on that cooler you installed?

 

[mrblah]

Very good suggestion - have a link or have some more info on that cooler you installed?

OF COUUUURSE I DO...lol

i got this one from amazon. Be careful, they come in different hose sizes, u need the 3/8 one, unless u wanna buy extra replacements.

I also bought extra bracket kit so i can have a clean install and utilize existing holes and not have to drill existing holes.

I also bought 1 inch hose to shield over the 3/8 hose at rub spots.

You also need a brass splitter and doesnt hurt to have extra hose clamps, and hose cutter, hose clamp tool, or just pay someone to do it for you....lol.

Amazon.com

this cooler is awesome. my vehicle actually now runs cooler when driving than when sitting at stop lights. I might buy a fan later on if i need it.

My vehicle now averages around 160 on long commutes, and on long steep grades, it doesn't break 200, stays in the 180 to 190 range. However, the sweet spot for me now is 160. It wants to stay there. If the temp goes higher, it will cool down fast to 160ish.

I havent tried it in 4lo, crawling up steep inclines, i have a funny feeling i will need a fan for that, since pre-cooler, the transmission got seriously hot. Luckily, i dont do that very often.

 

[honda250xtitan]

OF COUUUURSE I DO...lol

i got this one from amazon. Be careful, they come in different hose sizes, u need the 3/8 one, unless u wanna buy extra replacements.

I also bought extra bracket kit so i can have a clean install and utilize existing holes and not have to drill existing holes.

I also bought 1 inch hose to shield over the 3/8 hose at rub spots.

You also need a brass splitter and doesnt hurt to have extra hose clamps, and hose cutter, hose clamp tool, or just pay someone to do it for you....lol.

Amazon.com

this cooler is awesome. my vehicle actually now runs cooler when driving than when sitting at stop lights. I might buy a fan later on if i need it.

My vehicle now averages around 160 on long commutes, and on long steep grades, it doesn't break 200, stays in the 180 to 190 range. However, the sweet spot for me now is 160. It wants to stay there. If the temp goes higher, it will cool down fast to 160ish.

I havent tried it in 4lo, crawling up steep inclines, i have a funny feeling i will need a fan for that, since pre-cooler, the transmission got seriously hot. Luckily, i dont do that very often.

underrated mod. did this on my nissan and the temp drop was insane. does toyota use a tube warmer in the rad for the trans fluid? so did you bypass that or run it all in a series? cold weather people might wanna keep the warmer in line so you dont have crazy long wait times for the temp to get to operating levels.

 

[mrblah]

underrated mod. did this on my nissan and the temp drop was insane. does toyota use a tube warmer in the rad for the trans fluid? so did you bypass that or run it all in a series? cold weather people might wanna keep the warmer in line so you dont have crazy long wait times for the temp to get to operating levels.

ran it in series, mainly out of sheer laziness, and i didnt want to lose capacity.

this particular model has some cold weather protection (i think it might be a gimmick though), some kind of bypass for thick viscous oil (when its cold).

yup definitely worth it.

 

[baldrik78]

i had to install a transmission cooler with 34's.

I thought regear was enough to keep my transmission happy, it wasn't enough.

Good news is...my transmission is very happy now with a cooler.

Just food for thought.

I have not regeared yet, I just drive in Sport 4 all the time. Trans temps have been fine doing that. They definitely rise if you let it start shifting in and out of OD.

Hopefully I can move to 4.88s later this year... I just bought an OBS Ford F-250 that is getting all my parts money at the moment :lmao:

 

[mrblah]

I have not regeared yet, I just drive in Sport 4 all the time. Trans temps have been fine doing that. They definitely rise if you let it start shifting in and out of OD.

Hopefully I can move to 4.88s later this year... I just bought an OBS Ford F-250 that is getting all my parts money at the moment :lmao:

488 are awesome sauce!!!!

 

[Xtremluck]

In 6 months of being on 35s I've bent a passenger side spindle and both my inner tie rods are now failing.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

In 6 months of being on 35s I've bent a passenger side spindle and both my inner tie rods are now failing.

Bummer!

And from what i’ve seen of your offroad video’s, i’d venture to say you drive pretty conservatively - not afraid to take a challenging obstacle, not afraid to use your skids, but in a way that conserves the vehicle and avoids damage when possible.

Was it just the one spindle that you shared about when you tagged a submerged rock, or was there another?

Also, how are the inner tie rods failing, exactly? i’m not 100% familiar with how they usually fail other than bending.

 

[Xtremluck]

Bummer!

And from what i’ve seen of your offroad video’s, i’d venture to say you drive pretty conservatively - not afraid to take a challenging obstacle, not afraid to use your skids, but in a way that conserves the vehicle and avoids damage when possible.

Was it just the one spindle that you shared about when you tagged a submerged rock, or was there another?

Also, how are the inner tie rods failing, exactly? i’m not 100% familiar with how they usually fail other than bending.

Yup I like technical trails but I don’t hammer up them. If I lose forward progress I either reset the line or just pull cable [emoji23]

I bent my spindle hitting a submerged rock at trail speed but part of me wonders if i could have taken that hit just fine on smaller tires. We will never know but something I’ve thought of.

The inner tie rods on both sides have a considerable amount of play in them which I consider parts failure. The same thing happens with 33s as I seem to replace them every 1-2 years but it appears to be accelerated going to this size. I also have noticed my power steering pump making a lot more noise than it used to.

Take my results with a grain of salt though my truck sees a lot of off-road use since it’s solely used for that. So for someone who is daily driving and occasionally hitting dirt these problems may take years to manifest themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigdaddy2021]

Yup I like technical trails but I don’t hammer up them. If I lose forward progress I either reset the line or just pull cable [emoji23]

I bent my spindle hitting a submerged rock at trail speed but part of me wonders if i could have taken that hit just fine on smaller tires. We will never know but something I’ve thought of.

The inner tie rods on both sides have a considerable amount of play in them which I consider parts failure. The same thing happens with 33s as I seem to replace them every 1-2 years but it appears to be accelerated going to this size. I also have noticed my power steering pump making a lot more noise than it used to.

Take my results with a grain of salt though my truck sees a lot of off-road use since it’s solely used for that. So for someone who is daily driving and occasionally hitting dirt these problems may take years to manifest themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the parts failure details. Helpful for sure.

Here's my thought on that - there has to be a happy medium between the stock noodle tie rods and the $10-15k it takes to install a heavy duty rock crawling IFS system.

I've seen a few instances of sleeves to cover tie rods and add some rigidity, but nothing that makes me all warm and fuzzy.


This replacement setup uses Landcruiser parts, but you have to modify your spindle to take LC tie rod ends. Not a bad thing, but definitely a departure from the stock setup. at $340.00, it's pretty affordable compared to stock components. Then again, my mind goes to the tie rods being the fuse - If they're not the fuse, something else will end up being it, spindle arm, steering rack mounting bolts, etc.

5th Gen 4Runner Heavy Duty Steering Tie Rods
– Toyo-Steering

 

[mrblah]

Thanks for the parts failure details. Helpful for sure.

Here's my thought on that - there has to be a happy medium between the stock noodle tie rods and the $10-15k it takes to install a heavy duty rock crawling IFS system.

I've seen a few instances of sleeves to cover tie rods and add some rigidity, but nothing that makes me all warm and fuzzy.


This replacement setup uses Landcruiser parts, but you have to modify your spindle to take LC tie rod ends. Not a bad thing, but definitely a departure from the stock setup. at $340.00, it's pretty affordable compared to stock components. Then again, my mind goes to the tie rods being the fuse - If they're not the fuse, something else will end up being it, spindle arm, steering rack mounting bolts, etc.

5th Gen 4Runner Heavy Duty Steering Tie Rods
– Toyo-Steering

this is why i wont go up to 35's PERIOD, and why i stick to the lightest wheel and tire combo i can afford in 34, unless they find a way to put the lc200 steering rack without heavy mods to our subframe. I'm not ready for that investment yet.

With 35's you can do harder obstacles, but the trade off is, its less forgiving if you pick the wrong line or wrong tire placement, and my rock crawling experience is equivalent of a infant, lol.

I have the tie rod sleeves also. They only serve one purpose, so when your tie rod goes, instead of having a huge PITA trail repair, you have a "slightly less" PITA trail repair, or you can make it home. Either way, you still fck.d....lol. If you are interested in these, the ones i have are from Warfab. I believe they CNC it from one piece of steel (less prone to failure) versus their competitors which are basically a welded nut to a steel tube.

I'm still really happy with my skinny 34's...

 

[Xtremluck]

Thanks for the parts failure details. Helpful for sure.

Here's my thought on that - there has to be a happy medium between the stock noodle tie rods and the $10-15k it takes to install a heavy duty rock crawling IFS system.

I've seen a few instances of sleeves to cover tie rods and add some rigidity, but nothing that makes me all warm and fuzzy.


This replacement setup uses Landcruiser parts, but you have to modify your spindle to take LC tie rod ends. Not a bad thing, but definitely a departure from the stock setup. at $340.00, it's pretty affordable compared to stock components. Then again, my mind goes to the tie rods being the fuse - If they're not the fuse, something else will end up being it, spindle arm, steering rack mounting bolts, etc.

5th Gen 4Runner Heavy Duty Steering Tie Rods
– Toyo-Steering

Yup those are great tie rods which will be more durable but you push the fuse point to your actual steering rack like you mentioned. Which probably doesn't matter because they will eventually fail if you wheel enough anyways.

I think a nice option between full on RCLT and stock is Toyo Steering's new bolt on Tundra rack kit. 5th Gen 4Runner Tundra Rack Kit
– Toyo-Steering

That is the route I will be going once I kill this steering rack.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

Yup those are great tie rods which will be more durable but you push the fuse point to your actual steering rack like you mentioned. Which probably doesn't matter because they will eventually fail if you wheel enough anyways.

I think a nice option between full on RCLT and stock is Toyo Steering's new bolt on Tundra rack kit. 5th Gen 4Runner Tundra Rack Kit
– Toyo-Steering

That is the route I will be going once I kill this steering rack.

Interesting idea with that tundra rack. Caveat is that you have to be running a long travel setup, if i’m reading their site info right?

Those seem to be up around $3-4k parts and labor.

 

[Xtremluck]

Interesting idea with that tundra rack. Caveat is that you have to be running a long travel setup, if i’m reading their site info right?

Those seem to be up around $3-4k parts and labor.

You actually don't they modified the rack so you dont need LT to run it. The only modification needed is to ream out your steering knuckle so it can accept the beefier Tundra tie rods.

 

[bigdaddy2021]

You actually don't they modified the rack so you dont need LT to run it. The only modification needed is to ream out your steering knuckle so it can accept the beefier Tundra tie rods.

Ahhh, thanks! I just re-read it. Didn’t see the stock option.

And i also saw that i was choosing the most expensive option with gusseted, reamed and hubbed spindles.

The steering setup alone is $1700-ish with just some work needed on your stock spindles.

Or u can buy theirs reamed out for $2000-ish

Seeing how a stock 4runner rack is about $800 bucks, I feel like $1600 is pretty fair for a tundra rack modified to fit our rigs. Benefit there is that you just have to keep tundra inner and outer tie rod ends as spares instead of 4runner parts. Pretty cool.