Oil Change... 0w20? wtf?

[Atlanta_man]

Official Toyota Oil Recommendation Chart - Club Lexus Forums

Here's an update chart from Toyota, looking back a few years, and recommendations for modern oil weights

 

[Koz]

Official Toyota Oil Recommendation Chart - Club Lexus Forums

Here's an update chart from Toyota, looking back a few years, and recommendations for modern oil weights

Just to add to this chart; any engine that 5w-20 is recommended 0w-20 can safely be used. 0w-20 is a direct replacement to 5w-20. Just as 0w-30 is a direct replacement to 5w-30.

Koz

 

[DeafDog]

I think it just boils down to satisfying the EPA criminal cartel. Thinner oil = better mileage, not necessarily better wear characteristics or reliability.

:wtf: Paranoia aside, bearing tolerances dictate oil viscosity. Trust Toyota on this one!

 

[Atlanta_man]

Visited WalMart at lunch today.
Wow
there must have been 4 shelves of oil and probably 70ft of them

Every brand was represented in the 5w20 weight, in 1qt bottles and 5 qt jugs
the only 0w20 I saw was a big jug of Mobil 1
Mobile 1 0w40 was well represented as well

It's a great country to have so many choices.

 

[OldMan]

Giving Computer Scientists and Engineers a Bad Name

A 4Runner will do many things but it will not travel in time. This is not 1972 and what your dad and granddad remember is not applicable today. I do not know how much you understand about synthetic fluids except that in reading your post I can assume not much. How can you be "shocked" to see Toyota putting a 0-20 Full synthetic fluid in Houston? I will try to explain.
I am citing Mobil 1 full synthetic specs as this is an average in the industry.

10W-30 Mobil 1
VI=146
Cst at 100c=10.1
Cst at 40c=63.2

0W-20 Mobil 1
VI=173
Cst at 100c=8.7
Cst at 40c=44.8

For your edification "VI" = "Viscosity Index" and "Cst" = "centistokes" which is a measurement of it's resistance to pour, or "thickness for purposes of this board. Most on here are not "Bobistheoilguy".

The higher the viscosity index the better. It means that the oil will maintain a usable viscosity over a greater range of temperatures.
As you can see the 0-20 Synthetic has a smaller delta (delta means rate of change) from 100C (212F) to 40C (100F) than the 10-30. This means that the 0-20 Fluid has a "flatter" curve throughout than the 10-30, which means that 0-20 will maintain a better viscosity throughout this temperature range.

What I explained above is really a moot point though. Either a 0W-20 or a 10W30 full synthetic will offer outstanding protection for your Houston summers. You have to remember these are full synthetics - they are different. Your engine won't be able to tell the difference under normal operating conditions.

In closing, the 0W-20 synthetic is a good all purpose choice no matter where you are in North America. The differences are small in the temperature ranges our engines operate - including Houston.

Now, break in shavings? C'mon. Toyota offers a 10 year bazillion mile warranty for under a thousand bucks on these vehicles - and they recommend their FIRST oil change to be at 10K under normal driving conditions. If you travel offroad a lot or pull a heavy trailer it is 5K. NOT 1K to get rid of "break in shavings". Do you really think they are going to offer this warranty with this maintenance schedule if there are shavings in the motor at 1K miles? No, I don't think so either. Trust the manual. It was written by some smart guys.

"Texas bro's???"

Dang it 1Engineer, it's you hard core number crunchers that give Computer Science majors like me and Engineers like you a bad name. :redbrick: It's because of guys like you that they make us work with Project Managers and Business Analysts. You stated all the data, but couldn't reach the logical conclusion correctly.

You pointed out that the 0W20 has less of a Delta in Cst across a temperature range and therefore maintains a better viscosity (Thanks for defining Delta, but Delta is really just the change, not the rate of change. That's kind of like confusing speed with acceleration).

Although you correctly pointed out that the 0W20 maintains a more uniform viscosity, it doesn't maintain a better viscosity. You incorrectly stated that "The higher the viscosity index the better." You should have said the "The higher the viscosity the better" (for protection, not gas mileage). And the better viscosity (when measured by Cst at 100c) is the 10.1 of the 10W30 vs. 8.7 for 0W20.

You prudently say to trust those smart guys who wrote the manual (although it was probably actually written by technical writers who try to interpret the engineering data the best they can). However on page 637 of my manual it states "An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds or under extreme load conditions." It does not say "An oil with a higher viscosity index may be better suited..." Again, remember the speed versus acceleration analogy. The Viscosity Index is an indicator of an oil's capability to maintiain its viscosity but it's well known that a higher viscosity is what results in better protection (5W40 for a high performance sports car).

So, even though 0W20 exhibits less variation in viscosity through a range of operating temperatures and therefore has a higher VI, it does not yield a higher viscosity. 10W30 does that and that's why the smart guys who wrote the manual tell us to use our good judgement and choose a heavier weight oil for better protection under the normal operating conditions for most "bros" with a 4Runner. :thumb3:

Regarding warranty. Porsche has a 4yr/50000 mile warranty. Google "Cayman engine failure".

And remember, you're only smart when you realize how much you don't know. I think it's safe to say you haven't thought much about how much you don't know.

 

[1engineer]

Dang it 1Engineer, it's you hard core number crunchers that give Computer Science majors like me and Engineers like you a bad name. :redbrick: It's because of guys like you that they make us work with Project Managers and Business Analysts. You stated all the data, but couldn't reach the logical conclusion correctly.

You pointed out that the 0W20 has less of a Delta in Cst across a temperature range and therefore maintains a better viscosity (Thanks for defining Delta, but Delta is really just the change, not the rate of change. That's kind of like confusing speed with acceleration).

Although you correctly pointed out that the 0W20 maintains a more uniform viscosity, it doesn't maintain a better viscosity. You incorrectly stated that "The higher the viscosity index the better." You should have said the "The higher the viscosity the better" (for protection, not gas mileage). And the better viscosity (when measured by Cst at 100c) is the 10.1 of the 10W30 vs. 8.7 for 0W20.

You prudently say to trust those smart guys who wrote the manual (although it was probably actually written by technical writers who try to interpret the engineering data the best they can). However on page 637 of my manual it states "An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds or under extreme load conditions." It does not say "An oil with a higher viscosity index may be better suited..." Again, remember the speed versus acceleration analogy. The Viscosity Index is an indicator of an oil's capability to maintiain its viscosity but it's well known that a higher viscosity is what results in better protection (5W40 for a high performance sports car).

So, even though 0W20 exhibits less variation in viscosity through a range of operating temperatures and therefore has a higher VI, it does not yield a higher viscosity. 10W30 does that and that's why the smart guys who wrote the manual tell us to use our good judgement and choose a heavier weight oil for better protection under the normal operating conditions for most "bros" with a 4Runner. :thumb3:

Regarding warranty. Porsche has a 4yr/50000 mile warranty. Google "Cayman engine failure".

And remember, you're only smart when you realize how much you don't know. I think it's safe to say you haven't thought much about how much you don't know.

I'm 50 years old. I have learned enough in my lifetime to realize one thing: I don't know much. With that said I used and meant viscosity index instead of just viscosity because someone reading this could be in Alaska and driving to Mexico so a better index is desirable. Good catch on delta. I have been thinking in those terms for so long I didn't pay any attention. I do have to laugh though when you mentioned "good judgement" on oil choice. Again, I am very aware of my ignorance on many subjects and every day I get a little dumber. Just ask my kids.

 

[philsey]

So, I hear the 2014 will have a diesel option. What oil should I run it it?

 

[Lancez]

So, I hear the 2014 will have a diesel option. What oil should I run it it?

one still can dream

Sent from samsung GT-9100 using Tapatalk2

 

[Barry694]

oil viscosity

First of all synthetic oil does not "break down". As stated, it has to be thin in order to lubricate properly. I have been using synthetic oil since it first came on the market. That was back in about 1980 when Amsoil came out. I have owned many different vehicles since then, from Ford Heavy duty p/u's Toyota's and three Lexus Luxury vehicles. None have had issues due to the oil. For the most part none of the vehicles have had any problems at all. Get out of the dark ages and move forward. Manufacturers would not be giving longer powertrain warranties if there was any doubt about the oil to do its job. I lived for many years in the Sacramento Valley, where it is extremely hot and dusty for at least six months out of the year. I have lived in extremely cold climates (Upper Penisula of Michigan) and central Nebraska. So I think I lived for some time in some of the more extreme climate areas and have never seen or heard of a valid problem relating to synhetic oil. I have been told that on the assembly line Toyota fills the engine oil, runs the engine then drains and refills. This should eliminate some of your concerns about metal shavings. Also, how many people do you personally know who has had to replace/rebuild an engine due to the oil viscosity problems.

 

[homeyclaus]

Holy smokes, is this thread still alive?

I'm 50 years old. I have learned enough in my lifetime to realize one thing: I don't know much. With that said I used and meant viscosity index instead of just viscosity because someone reading this could be in Alaska and driving to Mexico so a better index is desirable. Good catch on delta. I have been thinking in those terms for so long I didn't pay any attention. I do have to laugh though when you mentioned "good judgement" on oil choice. Again, I am very aware of my ignorance on many subjects and every day I get a little dumber. Just ask my kids.

One needs to give 1engineer a bit of a break. All of us engineering types try to bridge the gap in terminology between the technically correct engineering terms and what laypeople call stuff. I sometimes wrap writing in "technically correct" brackets and "easier terminology" because of this.

So, I hear the 2014 will have a diesel option. What oil should I run it it?

Whatever the D4D's run now. Since there are none in the zone covered where anybody cares what the Americans at API think, you're stuck with a J- standard.

First of all synthetic oil does not "break down". As stated, it has to be thin in order to lubricate properly. I have been using synthetic oil since it first came on the market. That was back in about 1980 when Amsoil came out. I have owned many different vehicles since then, from Ford Heavy duty p/u's Toyota's and three Lexus Luxury vehicles. None have had issues due to the oil. For the most part none of the vehicles have had any problems at all. Get out of the dark ages and move forward.

It's the interwebz mixed with bro-science. You will make little headway here, mister.

Manufacturers would not be giving longer powertrain warranties if there was any doubt about the oil to do its job. I lived for many years in the Sacramento Valley, where it is extremely hot and dusty for at least six months out of the year. I have lived in extremely cold climates (Upper Penisula of Michigan) and central Nebraska. So I think I lived for some time in some of the more extreme climate areas and have never seen or heard of a valid problem relating to synhetic oil.

Broscience has lots of anecdotal evidence that unless you run 10W900 in your V8 to tow a 200 lb utility trailer, the engine will go nucular and puppies will die.

I have been told that on the assembly line Toyota fills the engine oil, runs the engine then drains and refills. This should eliminate some of your concerns about metal shavings. Also, how many people do you personally know who has had to replace/rebuild an engine due to the oil viscosity problems.

Everybody does a run-drain-refill. Back in the 80's, it actually helped UAW-assembled products. The Japanese have white-glove assembled engines since the 70's at least.

 

[RubiconSS]

This thread contained some very good information for the uninitiated. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of engines would already know most of it but...
The rest was amusing.
I would frame it this way. USE what the frigging Manual states is CORRECT.
Use the right viscosity - the right amount - change it and the filter as indicated - Do NOT add snake oil additives or eye of newt.
Then IF you keep a vehicle long enough to actually experience a Lubrication related Engine Failure - You can second guess the design Engineers until the cows come home.
Otherwise, just typical Forum Masturbation.

 

[kingpin748]

And remember, you're only smart when you realize how much you don't know. I think it's safe to say you haven't thought much about how much you don't know.

Wow! The Oldman comes out swinging with one of his first posts. Tha's a great way to make friends. I wish I was smart enough to understand half of what these two guys were saying. So I've decided to by both Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 10w-30 and mix them half and half.

 

[philsey]

... So I've decided to by both Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 10w-30 and mix them half and half.

Why not just buy 5w-25?

 

[1engineer]

Wow! The Oldman comes out swinging with one of his first posts. Tha's a great way to make friends. I wish I was smart enough to understand half of what these two guys were saying. So I've decided to by both Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 10w-30 and mix them half and half.

He is falling into the same trap as many though. His whole argument is hinged on defining "better." If you use something that meets specs that is fine. If you want "better" then you need to be smart enough to know what "better" really is and what's funny is what is "better" for one is not " better" for another in all parts of life. I was gonna write up a big rebuttal post but in the end it would mean nothing to anyone. His was a good post though. He has some knowledge of the topic.

 

[Hawaiian4runner]

He is falling into the same trap as many though. His whole argument is hinged on defining "better." If you use something that meets specs that is fine. If you want "better" then you need to be smart enough to know what "better" really is and what's funny is what is "better" for one is not " better" for another in all parts of life. I was gonna write up a big rebuttal post but in the end it would mean nothing to anyone. His was a good post though. He has some knowledge of the topic.

I'm with you 1engineer (and Old Man for the most part)It just amazes me that so many people think they know more than the engineers at Toyota. In fact, many of us buy Toyotas because they are so reliable and last forever so why are they questioning oil change intervals/ recommendations. Is there any basis for any of this? Jesus Christ. Go buy a Ford, change your oil every 1000 miles and you'll still be lucky if it lasts half as long as any Toyota.

 

[Narkhelek]

Now, break in shavings? C'mon. Toyota offers a 10 year bazillion mile warranty for under a thousand bucks on these vehicles - and they recommend their FIRST oil change to be at 10K under normal driving conditions. If you travel offroad a lot or pull a heavy trailer it is 5K. NOT 1K to get rid of "break in shavings". Do you really think they are going to offer this warranty with this maintenance schedule if there are shavings in the motor at 1K miles? No, I don't think so either. Trust the manual. It was written by some smart guys.

"Texas bro's???"

I changed my oil at 1k and there was a lot of metal particles in the bottom of the oil canister and what pored out of the oil pan. I believe others have reported the same findings. It's entirely possible that those metal particles may not have caused significant engine wear by 10k but I'm certainly not going to take that chance with my 40k truck. I also wouldn't scoff at the existence of 'break in shavings' when they obviously did exist in mine and others' engines.

 

[homeyclaus]

I changed my oil at 1k and there was a lot of metal particles in the bottom of the oil canister and what pored out of the oil pan. I believe others have reported the same findings. It's entirely possible that those metal particles may not have caused significant engine wear by 10k but I'm certainly not going to take that chance with my 40k truck. I also wouldn't scoff at the existence of 'break in shavings' when they obviously did exist in mine and others' engines.

They're in your filter, and not going anywhere. And you would not know about them without the newfangled filter system most people here like to complain about. Just sayin'

 

[1000MPH]

Well I'm not too worried about particles in my oil but he did say he observed in the oil drain pan.
As far as Toyota Engineers vs. us...we just might have different goals. I find it funny that many of you guys spouting this mantra have lifts/suspension upgrades, different tire sizes/types, CAIs, etc.
Maybe some of us want our engines to last forever, (Not me, 250k is good enough)

 

[RubiconSS]

IMO - As long as someone is disposing of their used oil properly, knock yourself out. Change it as much as you want if it makes you "feel" better.

When it comes to "feelings" facts or science has very little to do with the resultant action (just ask my Wife)

 

[INDYMAC]

I don't think a Toyota engine builder/engineer was even in the same county, let alone the same room when engine oil recommendations and OCI's were written for almost all Toyota engines in the USA. Trying to make a "one size fits all" statement should be your first clue.

So who was involved (in the room) with the recommendation committee? VP of CAFE and EPA credits and standards? CFO in charge of cost cutting the "free" 2 year/25K mile maintenance program? VP of marketing in charge of making routine maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle look more competitive than the competition?

On page 524 of my owner's manual are the following comments about oil consumption if you follow Toyota's recommendations:

■Engine oil consumption
●The amount of engine oil consumed depends on the oil viscosity, the
quality of the oil and the way the vehicle is driven.
●More oil is consumed under driving conditions such as high speeds and
frequent acceleration and deceleration.
●A new engine consumes more oil.
●When judging the amount of oil consumption, keep in mind that the oil
may have become diluted, making it difficult to judge the true level accurately.
●Oil consumption: Max. 1.1 qt./600 miles (0.9 Imp. qt./600 miles, 1.0 L/
1000 km)
●If your vehicle consumes more than 1.1 qt. (1.0 L, 0.9 Imp. qt.) every 600
miles (1000 km), contact your Toyota dealer.

I seriously doubt whether any reputable/ethical engine builder would sign off on leaving engine oil in the sump long enough for volume levels to visibly rise on the dipstick due to fuel dilution and/or coolant contamination. Yet, this isn't even mentioned as being possibly catastrophic for the engine. Just leave it in there for 10K miles?

I also wonder what reputable engine builder would advertise that his engine might consume up to 1.1 qts of oil every 600 miles, and this should be considered normal and not be investigated until it's worse than that.

I also wonder who certified the 1GR-FE engine with 0W-20, and to what standards or criteria. Were there objections? By whom? Or was the decision unanimous amongst the engine builders/engineers? When I read the owner's manual on what engine oil to use and for how long, it appears that there was a split decision wrt viscosity. From page 637:

Oil viscosity (0W-20 is explained here as an example):
● The 0W in 0W-20 indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows
cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier
starting of the engine in cold weather.
● The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when
the oil is at high temperature. "An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a
higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme load conditions".

With regards to early engine oil and filter changes on a new vehicle, I say you might just be smarter than the Toyota routine maintenance recommendation committee. I'm not aware of any engine builder, transmission builder, or rear end builder who identifies himself that doesn't recommend doing just that. I'm not aware of any tribologist that doesn't recommend the same thing to remove and flush abrasive break-in wear metals, castings, assembly lubes and sealants either.

If you trade in your vehicle before or just after your warranty expires, then no worries unless you care about the next owner. But if you consider your vehicle a keeper and want to minimize long term repairs, then change your fluids early and often.