oil change
- Thread starter irwinSR5
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Hitman
New member
Koz said:
Synthic oil gets contaminated at the same exact rate of conventional motor oil. This is an indisputable fact.
Your engine makes water as a byproduct of combustion. Oil and water do not mix very well. Synthetic oil does not mix any better with water than conventional oil.... think about it.
The same holds true for any other contaminent or byproduct of combustion.
Hitman
New member
EDGE said:
Actually, the big debate is that Honda uses this oil to increase the CAFE ratings. Lighter weight oil will increase fuel economy (ever so slightly because of less parasitic losses of the crankshaft rotating through the oil) which will help with the CAFE ratings.
Another argument is that the lighter oil will circulate faster upon cold startup, and actually decrease engine wear.
Koz
New member
Hitman said:
Let me try to dispute the facts you think are valid. I'll try to keep it short
.Even though petroleum refining is an advanced science, small amounts of contaminants, such as sulfur and reactive hydrocarbons cannot be completely removed from petroleum, and end up in motor oil base stocks. Synthetics base stock are designed in a lab and therefore do not contain these contaminants. So right from the start petroleum oil is contaminated.
Petroleum oil molecules are of varying sizes. So, as a petroleum oil heats up, the smaller molecules begin to burn off. Deposits and sludge are left behind to coat the inside of your engine. In addition, as smaller particles burn off, the larger, heavier molecules are all that is left to protect the engine. Unfortunately, these larger particles do not flow nearly as well and tend to blanket the components of your engine which only exacerbates the heat problem as friction builds-up. Synthetic oils, on the other hand, because they are not purified, but rather designed within a lab for lubrication purposes, are comprised of molecules of uniform size and shape. Therefore, even if a synthetic oil does burn a little, the remaining oil has the same chemical characteristics that it had before the burn off. There are no smaller molecules to burn-off and no heavier molecules to leave behind. OK, I said I would try to keep it short, bottomline is synthetics contain almost no contaminants compared to petroleum oils since they are not a refined product. As a result, if oil burn-off does occur, there are few, if any, contaminants left behind to leave sludge and deposits on engine surfaces.
Petroleum oils also contain paraffins (wax), they tend to thicken up considerably in cold temperatures. Additives are used to help keep the oil from thickening too much due to these waxy contaminants. Synthetic oils, on the other hand, contain no paraffins. Therefore, they need no additive to help with cold temperature operation. Moreover, even without the additives, synthetics flow at far lower temperatures than petroleum oils. Remember additives cause contamination!
Since synthetics contain no additives to aid with cold temperature flow, synthetics maintain their cold temperature flow characteristics for a long period of time. Additive depletion is not a factor in the cold temperature flow of synthetic oils. Synthetics do not thicken due to burn-off. So, this is not a factor in cold temperature flow either. Of course, the obvious result is that you don't need to change synthetic oil as often to regain adequate cold temperature flow.
Water causes acids to be created within the oil and corrosion will begin within your engine. So, there are additives in the oil which are designed to combat these acids. Synthetics contain higher quality and a higher quantity of these additives in order to properly neutralize these acids for a longer period of time. These additives do deplete over time, but it takes longer with synthetic oils than with petroleum oils.
Here's a couple important facts; Additives are also used to keep oil contamination in check and to keep it from damaging your engine. These additives keep potentially wear causing contaminants suspended and contained in your oil so they don't cause excessive wear or deposit build-up within your engine before your filter can remove them. Synthetics have higher additive treat rates than petroleum oils (in addition to using higher quality, more expensive, additives), so they can perform this contaminant control function for a much longer period of time than a petroleum oil can.
To control acids the Total Base Number (TBN) describes the acid neutralization ability of an oil, with higher TBN oils providing longer lasting acid neutralization. Synthetics nearly always have higher TBN values than petroleum oils do. The result: longer and better acid neutralization capability allowing for extended drain use.
OK, I think thats enough:hello:!
Koz
Last edited:
KOZ, I understand what your saying (synthetic is a superior oil to dino) but I have to say I agree with the Hitman's story. If you use the API rated oil called for by the auto manufacture and do your oil changes based on Toyota's recommendation then your engine will last just as long using either the API rated dino oil or the synthetic. The main reason I would use the synthetic, would be to extend the OCI to the limit of Toyotas recommended interval. I now do 3750 changes with dino and it might be cheaper to do 7500 changes with synthetic. I've read some posts on used oil analysis on www.bobistheoilguy.com and even though synthetic can be used for a longer OCI then dino you need to do a UOA to determine when it is time to change your oil or you could go beyond even the synthetics useful life. Seems like it is just a lot easier to change my Castrol GTX 5w30 every 3750 miles and feel good about it. 
Koz
New member
I agree, any synthetic oil is overkill, but if you took two like engines (new), one using dino and one using synthetic and exposed them to the same conditions for as long as they would run (with recommended oil changes), I would bet that the engine with synthetic oil would run a high percentage longer. The reason I run synthetic is to extend my change intervals. I change my oil once a year, right before the summer.
The Toyota VVT-i engine uses the engine oil to adjust the variable cam mechanism. I plan on keeping my 4Runner for a very long time. I usually keep a vehicle until it
The Toyota VVT-i engine uses the engine oil to adjust the variable cam mechanism. I plan on keeping my 4Runner for a very long time. I usually keep a vehicle until it
Koz said:
I used Amsoil and Mobil synthetic in my 95 Landcruiser after the warranty expired. I understand Amsoil is great oil and at 90K miles when we took the valve cover off to check the valve adjustment my machanic was amazed, thought it looked like a new engine. I will be trading my 4runner before I get to the timing belt change interval, so I am using the dealer for the changes and they use Castrol GTX 5w30 so I will be able to tell anyone buying my rig that they can look at the reciepts and see that it was maintained better then recommended at the selling dealer and all work was done by the selling dealer. But knowing me I could trade vehicles this weekend.
Bobby
New member
Changing from dino to synthetic on a high mileage car isn't a good idea. Synths tend to have cleaning agents that will break down deposits on the valves and rings, making the engine lose compression and power.
Hitman's arguement isn't quite true. An engine run on synthetic oil will have much less wear than one run on dino oil at high mileage (over 100k).
I've seen high mileage engines using dino oil taken apart and the sludge in the oil pan is amazing. If you don't plan on keeping the car long and want to save a few bucks, then dino is fine for your application. I tend to keep the cars I like for a long time so I want to take care of them. I switched to Castrol SynTec 5w30 in my 4runner at 1800 miles and won't use anything else. I've been using 5w50 in my M3 since I got it and I have no problems with burning oil or lifter tick after hard runs (common e36 M3 problems).
Hitman's arguement isn't quite true. An engine run on synthetic oil will have much less wear than one run on dino oil at high mileage (over 100k).
I've seen high mileage engines using dino oil taken apart and the sludge in the oil pan is amazing. If you don't plan on keeping the car long and want to save a few bucks, then dino is fine for your application. I tend to keep the cars I like for a long time so I want to take care of them. I switched to Castrol SynTec 5w30 in my 4runner at 1800 miles and won't use anything else. I've been using 5w50 in my M3 since I got it and I have no problems with burning oil or lifter tick after hard runs (common e36 M3 problems).
Bobby said:
Bobby, since your into oil you might want to check out the used oil analysis section on www.bobistheoilguy.com They seem to like Castrol GTX 5w30 better then they like Castrol syntec. They love Mobil 1 results in almost any engine. You will also notice based on UOA that if you use any good (castrol gtx) dino oil in the Toyota 4.7 V8 engine and change it based on Toyota's schle. that it will last forever like "NO" sign of wear. The Toyota 4.7 V8 is very very very easy on all oils that have been tested. Check it out and let us know what you think.
Bobby
New member
I've read that and other sites on oil analysis. I've used Castrol SynTec for years and it's been working really well for me in my M3. I have none of the problems that the guys using Amsoil, Mobil1, etc are having. Lucky? Maybe but I've had good results and will stick to what I trust.
I've seen what dino oil does to bottom ends of engines regardless of those tests and I wouldn't want that to happen to any of my cars. In the end, you'll make your decisions based on your comfort level. Just remember to take everything you read on the net with a grain (or more) of salt.
I've seen what dino oil does to bottom ends of engines regardless of those tests and I wouldn't want that to happen to any of my cars. In the end, you'll make your decisions based on your comfort level. Just remember to take everything you read on the net with a grain (or more) of salt.
Hitman
New member
Bobby said:
Are you really blaming "dino" oil for what is most likely a lack of maintenance?
As a former Toyota tech, I've seen more than one old Toyota engine (more than 200,000 miles) pulled apart and clean on the bottom end because of regular oil changes with "dino" oil.
I'd say the frequency of oil changes has MUCH more to do with the condition of the bottom end than the type of oil you choose to use.
Hitman
New member
Bobby said:
That's an interesting thought.... but if deposits were on valves/rings then that would cause a higher than normal compression ratio, simply due to the fact that the combustion chamber has less total volume because of the space taken up by the deposits. This is the exact reason that some high-mileage engines begin to ping/knock on lower octane fuels.
Cleaning these deposits will cause the compression ratio to return to normal.
I never said the wear will be equal.... I simply said that the motor run on conventional oil can outlast the rest of the vehicle. In other words, modern engine technology is so good that normal life expectance of the engine will probably outlast several other systems on the vehicle... so why worry about wear? Not many people wear out their engines.... and if they do, it's much more likely to be from lack of proper maintenance.
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Boaz
New member
OIL
I change my oil because its dirty. I really think you cant go wrong with every 3000 miles, dino oil or syn or blend, and a oem filter.
Its cheaper to do dino oil of course, but I like the peace of mind of a 3000 mile interval. But its really just a matter of who you ask now!
I plan on changing my 4R oil at 3k with OEM filter and Quaker state "dino" oil because thats what the Toyota service center recommends.
I change my oil because its dirty. I really think you cant go wrong with every 3000 miles, dino oil or syn or blend, and a oem filter.
Its cheaper to do dino oil of course, but I like the peace of mind of a 3000 mile interval. But its really just a matter of who you ask now!
I plan on changing my 4R oil at 3k with OEM filter and Quaker state "dino" oil because thats what the Toyota service center recommends.
Hitman
New member
Koz said:Let me try to dispute the facts you think are valid. I'll try to keep it short
Even though petroleum refining is an advanced science, small amounts of contaminants, such as sulfur and reactive hydrocarbons cannot be completely removed from petroleum, and end up in motor oil base stocks. Synthetics base stock are designed in a lab and therefore do not contain these contaminants. So right from the start petroleum oil is contaminated.
Petroleum oil molecules are of varying sizes. So, as a petroleum oil heats up, the smaller molecules begin to burn off. Deposits and sludge are left behind to coat the inside of your engine. In addition, as smaller particles burn off, the larger, heavier molecules are all that is left to protect the engine. Unfortunately, these larger particles do not flow nearly as well and tend to blanket the components of your engine which only exacerbates the heat problem as friction builds-up. Synthetic oils, on the other hand, because they are not purified, but rather designed within a lab for lubrication purposes, are comprised of molecules of uniform size and shape. Therefore, even if a synthetic oil does burn a little, the remaining oil has the same chemical characteristics that it had before the burn off. There are no smaller molecules to burn-off and no heavier molecules to leave behind. OK, I said I would try to keep it short, bottomline is synthetics contain almost no contaminants compared to petroleum oils since they are not a refined product. As a result, if oil burn-off does occur, there are few, if any, contaminants left behind to leave sludge and deposits on engine surfaces.
Petroleum oils also contain paraffins (wax), they tend to thicken up considerably in cold temperatures. Additives are used to help keep the oil from thickening too much due to these waxy contaminants. Synthetic oils, on the other hand, contain no paraffins. Therefore, they need no additive to help with cold temperature operation. Moreover, even without the additives, synthetics flow at far lower temperatures than petroleum oils. Remember additives cause contamination!
Since synthetics contain no additives to aid with cold temperature flow, synthetics maintain their cold temperature flow characteristics for a long period of time. Additive depletion is not a factor in the cold temperature flow of synthetic oils. Synthetics do not thicken due to burn-off. So, this is not a factor in cold temperature flow either. Of course, the obvious result is that you don't need to change synthetic oil as often to regain adequate cold temperature flow.
Water causes acids to be created within the oil and corrosion will begin within your engine. So, there are additives in the oil which are designed to combat these acids. Synthetics contain higher quality and a higher quantity of these additives in order to properly neutralize these acids for a longer period of time. These additives do deplete over time, but it takes longer with synthetic oils than with petroleum oils.
Here's a couple important facts; Additives are also used to keep oil contamination in check and to keep it from damaging your engine. These additives keep potentially wear causing contaminants suspended and contained in your oil so they don't cause excessive wear or deposit build-up within your engine before your filter can remove them. Synthetics have higher additive treat rates than petroleum oils (in addition to using higher quality, more expensive, additives), so they can perform this contaminant control function for a much longer period of time than a petroleum oil can.
To control acids the Total Base Number (TBN) describes the acid neutralization ability of an oil, with higher TBN oils providing longer lasting acid neutralization. Synthetics nearly always have higher TBN values than petroleum oils do. The result: longer and better acid neutralization capability allowing for extended drain use.
OK, I think thats enough:hello:!
Koz
Wow, all that typing and you seemed to miss my main point!
I wasn't talking about the possibility of contamination from the oil itself, I was talking about the absolute certainty of contamination OF THE OIL from the process of combustion/blow-by etc...
I realize that you said extending your oil change intervals is your main reason for using synthetic, but it is my belief that you are probably doing more damage to your engine by running the same synthetic oil for extended intervals than I am by running conventional motor oil and changine it every 3-4 thousand miles.
Like I said, water will contaminate both synethic and conventional oils equally, just like dirt particles. Your theory that synthetic contain more additives to combat these contaminents holds no water. If you look at the API rating (I believe the current is SJ), you'll see that it applies equally to any/all motor oils, including synethics and synthetic blends. This means that they all must meet minimum recommended requirements.
I had to have my engine pulled, damn I was scammed, changed my oil every 4000 miles and it's full of sludge, no more dino juice for me only high priced synthetics changed at ridiculously insane intervals like 1500 miles and no more then 2500 miles.
Now my engine should last till 40,000 miles before I need to rebuild
:
Pitbull
I'd check your engine if I was you, I had Castrol GTX in their and it's like hot tar after 1000 miles
Now my engine should last till 40,000 miles before I need to rebuild
: Pitbull
I'd check your engine if I was you, I had Castrol GTX in their and it's like hot tar after 1000 miles
Hitman
New member
peter78 said:
I've also heard several other M3 owners complain about problems caused by using synthetic oil.
Early on, synthetic oils were known to cause damage to seals.... not to mention that they would tend to "slip through" some seals and cause oil leaks. Synthetics can increase the blow-by, especially on new or worn rings. I've also heard people complain of valve train clatter when switching to synthetics.
EDGE said:I had to have my engine pulled, damn I was scammed, changed my oil every 4000 miles and it's full of sludge, no more dino juice for me only high priced synthetics changed at ridiculously insane intervals like 1500 miles and no more then 2500 miles.
Now my engine should last till 40,000 miles before I need to rebuild
Pitbull
I'd check your engine if I was you, I had Castrol GTX in their and it's like hot tar after 1000 miles
Cool I can use the tar on my driveway to fill in cracks
