Oil Real vs. Synthetic

[mikes4runner]

Don't forget air filters.

When do you switch to synthetic in your vehicles? It looks like 8000? Does it matter? My last car I waited till 7500. I was thinking 10-12k for my V8 (iron block). I've been running Castrol GTX 5w-30, was going to switch to Red Line at 12k.

I switched from the Toyota Filter to Wix. The Wix is smaller, not sure what to make of it. It may be better quality, but smaller?

Anytime you want.

 

[Kanab]

Lets try an analogy

Dino oil = 357 Mag
Synthetic oil = 44 Mag

If you get shot in the heart with either one it will kill you.

If you use either dino or synthetic oil and follow Toyota's recommended OCI your engine will perform the same for the life of the vehicle. Now which oil is better? They both get the job done.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Lets try an analogy

Dino oil = 357 Mag
Synthetic oil = 44 Mag

If you get shot in the heart with either one it will kill you.

If you use either dino or synthetic oil and follow Toyota's recommended OCI your engine will perform the same for the life of the vehicle. Now which oil is better? They both get the job done.

Good except that you would have to look at it from another angle. Using your analogy, it's not a matter of which would kill you but which would kill you faster.

 

[Hitman]

It's not the 'slipperieness' of synthetic oil that causes higher mileage engines to leak. That's another one of those synthetic oil old wives tales. :bash: It's the varnish that has built on the seals over time and the resulting detergent action from the synthetic oil that 'causes' the seals to leak. I put the 'causes' in quotes because it's not the synthetic oil causing the seal to leak. If synthetic oil would have been used from the beginning, leaks would not be an issue.

I have never had this problem on any car that I've owned in the last 10 years and I've used nothing but synthetic oil.

If this was to happen to me, I would use a cycle of Auto-RX to clean up the engine and help reseal any leaks.

I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).

Yes, I know that certain vehicles come from the factory with synethic in the crankcase, but those vehicles were engineered to use synthetic oil....

An engine NOT designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the synthetic oil itself.... especially older engines.

 

[bulldog-yota]

I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).

This would be interesting, please supply proof.

 

[Hitman]

What about filters? Think one filter is different from another? Does the filter contribute to the rate of oil contamination and reduce the oil change interval?

Of course filters are different. What's the point? We're discussing synthetic vs conventional motor oil.

If there were UOA's to support the extended drain intervals and they were satisfactory, I would buy the above 4Runner in a second. Anyone can choose to buy what they want, but how could you factually state or prove that the vehicle in the above scenario had a higher wear rate than another similar vehicle?

First of all, probably less than 1% of all vehicle owners actually have their oil tested by a lab.

I'm not saying that I can prove or disprove the wear rate, I'm just saying I wouldn't buy a vehicle with 50,000 miles that only had 5 oil changes. But that's just me.

Do you have any used oil analysis to support any of your claims concerning conventional and synthetic oils?

Here are my last 4 UOA's on my '04 Sport Edition V6: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002280

That's great, but it means nothing to me unless you have the same data for the same vehicle with the same miles and the same drain intervals with conventional oil too.

That type of data is useless for this debate unless you have something to compare it to.

 

[Hitman]

This would be interesting, please supply proof.

Proof?

Did you ever hear of any recommendations to NOT use synthetic oil until your engine is properly (and fully) broken in?


Ever wonder why???

 

[bulldog-yota]

Proof?

Did you ever hear of any recommendations to NOT use synthetic oil until your engine is properly (and fully) broken in?


Ever wonder why???

Where is the proof, stated by a manufacturer of an engine. Come on if you state old wive tales as facts, you need to supply conclusive proof of it.

I know plenty of them coming out of the factory with syn in it. Also check out Mobil and Amsoil websites.

You proof is based on the story that an engine needs to break in, and therefore more friction is required. If the engine rings dont break in, it does not seal properly and can cause blow by. Got nothing to do with slipperyness, and slippery oil seeping past. However this not really true anymore.

I ran my V8 for 20k on dino, just to be safe. But had no real reason to do so.

I have rebuild and raced many engines (stopped doing it about 10 years ago) and even then there was no real proof of the break in theory. SOme guys just ran their engines hard straight out of rebuilding them, with no ill effects.

Yes cars do tend to peform better after a few miles, but lots of things need to break in not justthe engine.

 

[Kanab]

Good except that you would have to look at it from another angle. Using your analogy, it's not a matter of which would kill you but which would kill you faster.

Dead is dead and they both would kill you just as fast. Only diff would be the size of the hole

 

[Hitman]

Where is the proof, stated by a manufacturer of an engine. Come on if you state old wive tales as facts, you need to supply conclusive proof of it.



It's not an old wives tale. If need be, I'll find some facts and post them here if it will satisfy you.


I know plenty of them coming out of the factory with syn in it. Also check out Mobil and Amsoil websites.

And as I stated, those engines were engineered to run on synthetic oil.... different crosshatch on the cylinder walls and different rings.



You proof is based on the story that an engine needs to break in, and therefore more friction is required. If the engine rings dont break in, it does not seal properly and can cause blow by. Got nothing to do with slipperyness, and slippery oil seeping past. However this not really true anymore.



It's still very true. Even your brand new 4Runner engine needs to break in the rings properly--even if you continue to use conventional oil forever.

I've built engines before and I know for a fact that the rings don't wear into the cylinder walls immediately.



I ran my V8 for 20k on dino, just to be safe. But had no real reason to do so.


Sounds kinda hypocritical to me.... why be safe when you know for sure that you don't need to break in your engine before switching to synthetic??


I have rebuild and raced many engines (stopped doing it about 10 years ago) and even then there was no real proof of the break in theory. SOme guys just ran their engines hard straight out of rebuilding them, with no ill effects.

The break in theory is controversial.... but that has nothing to do with synthetic or conventional oil. The break in theory is basically guys who hammer their engines from the first mile vs guys who don't do that until a few thousand miles.



Yes cars do tend to peform better after a few miles, but lots of things need to break in not justthe engine.

 

[bulldog-yota]

SO get the facts that a manufacturer says dont use synthetic oil in my engine.

http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq1.aspx

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx

SO where is yours??

 

[bulldog-yota]

I ran my V8 for 20k on dino, just to be safe. But had no real reason to do so.


Sounds kinda hypocritical to me.... why be safe when you know for sure that you don't need to break in your engine before switching to synthetic??

Maybe you missed the second part, I had NO REAL REASON to do so. Just superstition, but I dont state it as a fact.

 

[Hitman]

SO get the facts that a manufacturer says dont use synthetic oil in my engine.

I never said that.

If you want facts, then at least read my words carefully.

I said that you shouldn't BREAK IN an engine on synthetic, unless of course it had synethic as the original fill.

I doubt that any manufacturers will say that you should never use synthetic in their engines.

 

[Hitman]

Maybe you missed the second part, I had NO REAL REASON to do so. Just superstition, but I dont state it as a fact.

Nope, didn't miss it... I just said that I find it a bit hypocritical, that's all.

If you truly feel so strongly about the benefits of synethic then why wait 20,000 miles to use it? Unless of course you were a little concerned about having the engine broken in first....


Did you ever break a mirror? Or walk under a ladder?

 

[bulldog-yota]

SO get the facts that a manufacturer says dont use synthetic oil in my engine.

I never said that.

If you want facts, then at least read my words carefully.

I said that you shouldn't BREAK IN an engine on synthetic, unless of course it had synethic as the original fill.

I doubt that any manufacturers will say that you should never use synthetic in their engines.

So get the facts and prove it for us.

Ever wonder why no manufacturer would say that??

 

[Hitman]

So get the facts and prove it for us.

Ever wonder why no manufacturer would say that??

How do I beat this into your head??

I agree that manufacturers would not say NOT to use synethic oil in their engines.

But plenty of them say not to use it until the engine is broken in first.

Do you challenge me on that statement? Think carefully before answering, because it will be easy to make you look foolish.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Nope, didn't miss it... I just said that I find it a bit hypocritical, that's all.

If you truly feel so strongly about the benefits of synethic then why wait 20,000 miles to use it? Unless of course you were a little concerned about having the engine broken in first....


Did you ever break a mirror? Or walk under a ladder?

I got the oil changes for free, so why pass up on it?? ANd if I had to do it again I will probably change at the first oil change to syn, but that is just me.

But dont try and change topic, proof your "fact".

No mirrors broken, and I dont walk under ladders as it just commensense not to (do you need proof of that?).

 

[Hitman]

Gotta go for now, but I'll check back for your reply and find some facts for you if you so desire.

 

[Hitman]

(do you need proof of that?).

Don't look now, but YOU are the one demanding proof of everything.

This shit is just common sense to me.

 

[bulldog-yota]

How do I beat this into your head??

I agree that manufacturers would not say NOT to use synethic oil in their engines.

But plenty of them say not to use it until the engine is broken in first.

Do you challenge me on that statement? Think carefully before answering, because it will be easy to make you look foolish.

Just supply the proof that a manufacturer states, not to use synthetic till broken in.

That will be way more interesting than us going round in circles.. I supplied mine, similar to the gearing issue as well.