Oil Real vs. Synthetic

[405HP_Z06]

I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).

:FOS: Well-known to whom and what data do you have to support this? An engine burns oil at the rings for many reasons. The one you are referring to is when the rings have not seated properly. In today's engines, they are built and run in at the factory to ensure they will break-in and seal up quickly.

Yes, I know that certain vehicles come from the factory with synethic in the crankcase, but those vehicles were engineered to use synthetic oil....

How are these engines engineered differently than an engine engineered for conventional oil? One could actually switch to synthetic oil as soon as they wanted on a new engine. IMHO, it's not worth it(waste of money) to switch early becuase I want to get all the break-in wear metals out of the engine by frequent oil changes monitored by UOA. Once the break-in metals start to decline it's time to switch to synthetic.

Originally posted by Hitman An engine NOT designed to run on synthetic can develop oil leaks because of the synthetic oil itself.... especially older engines.

Besides the 'slipperieness' old wives tale, how does synthetic oil develop leaks. In older engines it's not the synthetic oil but the conventional oil that was ran in the engine previously that built up varnish and hid a leak in the first place.

An analogy would be the weatherstripping on a vehicle. If you don't take care of it and it dry's out it won't seal the vehicle from the environment resulting in water leaks and wind noise. If you maintain it with dielectric grease it will stay soft and pliable and seal out the elements. Conventional oil will cook off and leave varnish deposits on seals that are dry. Seals need to stay pliable and have little lubricant to seal.:bash:

 

[405HP_Z06]

Don't forget air filters.

When do you switch to synthetic in your vehicles? It looks like 8000? Does it matter? My last car I waited till 7500. I was thinking 10-12k for my V8 (iron block). I've been running Castrol GTX 5w-30, was going to switch to Red Line at 12k.

I switched from the Toyota Filter to Wix. The Wix is smaller, not sure what to make of it. It may be better quality, but smaller?

Sorry, forgot about to mention the air filter. Very important!

I switched to synthetic on the 4Runner at 4202 engine miles. The Z06 has had synthetic from the factory. How many miles do you have on the motor now? I wouldn't wait 10K miles though.

As far as filters go, I would use the K&N or Mobil 1.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Hitman,

This is where we started

"Originally posted by Hitman
I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bulldog
This would be interesting, please supply proof."

ANd I called the BS you said on the well-known fact that synthetic can cause oil to pass through rings on a new engine.

First off oil does not pass through compression rings, but rather by them. The only ring that have oil passing through it is the oil ring, and you want the oil to go through it.

The causes on blowby I have seen on new engines were because it was not honed properly, or poor tolerances. But I'm sure there are more experienced guys than me that can chip in, since I have been out of this for a while.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Of course filters are different. What's the point? We're discussing synthetic vs conventional motor oil.

Because the filter is an integral part of the oil system and it directly affects the life of the oil. Heck, you probably don't need a filter.

First of all, probably less than 1% of all vehicle owners actually have their oil tested by a lab.

I'm not saying that I can prove or disprove the wear rate, I'm just saying I wouldn't buy a vehicle with 50,000 miles that only had 5 oil changes. But that's just me.

I probably wouldn't buy it either if they had ran extended drain intervals on conventional oil.

That's great, but it means nothing to me unless you have the same data for the same vehicle with the same miles and the same drain intervals with conventional oil too.

That type of data is useless for this debate unless you have something to compare it to.

The data is very useful. The universal averages and ppm data show the obvious. That my engine is wearing very well. Where are your UOA's for conventional oils, let's compare and see how they look. :arrow:

 

[405HP_Z06]

But plenty of them say not to use it until the engine is broken in first.

Do you challenge me on that statement? Think carefully before answering, because it will be easy to make you look foolish.

I'll take a chance, it wouldn't be the first time I looked foolish. Please show current valid data that supports these outlandish claims.

 

[405HP_Z06]

Don't look now, but YOU are the one demanding proof of everything.

This shit is just common sense to me.

If thread is an indicator of your common sense, I sure am glad I don't have any.:bash:

 

[Hitman]

:FOS: Well-known to whom and what data do you have to support this? An engine burns oil at the rings for many reasons. The one you are referring to is when the rings have not seated properly. In today's engines, they are built and run in at the factory to ensure they will break-in and seal up quickly.



How are these engines engineered differently than an engine engineered for conventional oil? One could actually switch to synthetic oil as soon as they wanted on a new engine. IMHO, it's not worth it(waste of money) to switch early becuase I want to get all the break-in wear metals out of the engine by frequent oil changes monitored by UOA. Once the break-in metals start to decline it's time to switch to synthetic.



You just contradicted yourself. First, you say that the engines are built and ran in the factory to ensure a quick break-in and then you tell us that you don't want to waste the money on synthetic because of the break-in metal in the engine.

So are you saying that a factory-fresh engine is NOT fully broken in from the first mile??



Besides the 'slipperieness' old wives tale, how does synthetic oil develop leaks. In older engines it's not the synthetic oil but the conventional oil that was ran in the engine previously that built up varnish and hid a leak in the first place.



Synthetic oil can get past seals and gaskets that conventional oil cannot. Does this mean that the regular oil was hiding leaks? Of course not.... it simply means that the addition of synthetic oil in place of conventional oil can cause oil leaks that did not exist previously.

Do you think synthetic oil has the same friction coefficient as conventional oil? If not, then you are contradicting yourself again. And if you do agree, then you're admitting that synthetic is indeed more slippery than conventional motor oil

 

[Kanab]

That my engine is wearing very well. Where are your UOA's for conventional oils, let's compare and see how they look. :arrow:

I think you are doing the right thing with the UOA on the new 4.0 V6 since it is a new engine and who knew how it would wear. Looks like a good one (but it is a Toyota). I have the 4.7 V8 and if you check out the UOA on bobistheoilguy on the Toyota 4.7 V8 you will see that it is one of the best engines based on UOA on any oil they have tested. It is just a great engine that is very very easy on oil. I think you could use any appropriate API rated oil and the 4.7 would out last the rest of the SUV. My 350Z owners manual states that Nissan does not recommend owners use synthetic oil in their engine. Several owners have used synthetic from the first day they bought their Z and several have had their engines replaced for extreme oil consumption. I have no idea if its the synthetic oil but I just follow Nissans instructions and use dino oil that is rated API per Nissans instructions and change it every 3000 miles. My Z does not have any oil related problems.

 

[Hitman]

Hitman,

This is where we started

"Originally posted by Hitman
I disagree completely. It's a well-known fact that using synthetic oil on a brand new engines can cause oil to pass though the piston rings. Why does this happen? Because of the inherent properties of synthetic oil (in other words, its more slippery).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bulldog
This would be interesting, please supply proof."

ANd I called the BS you said on the well-known fact that synthetic can cause oil to pass through rings on a new engine.

First off oil does not pass through compression rings, but rather by them. The only ring that have oil passing through it is the oil ring, and you want the oil to go through it.

The causes on blowby I have seen on new engines were because it was not honed properly, or poor tolerances. But I'm sure there are more experienced guys than me that can chip in, since I have been out of this for a while.

Don't play the semantics game with me.... you know damn well what I meant.

Anyone that has ever built an engine should know that the compression rings are not a perfect match with the crosshatch pattern on a freshly honed bore. This creates an opportunity for oil to pass THROUGH the tiny gaps between the rings and cylinder wall. BTW, the rings always have a gap, which should be staggered to minimize blow-by. But of course you should know that if you've built an engine before.

 

[Hitman]

Because the filter is an integral part of the oil system and it directly affects the life of the oil. Heck, you probably don't need a filter.



Apples and oranges when you're comparing synthetic vs conventional oil.

Your vehicle (with synethetic) or mine (with dino) could have the same filters or any type of different filter. The discussion has nothing to do with the filters for this very reason. Lets stick with apples/apples, m'kay?






I probably wouldn't buy it either if they had ran extended drain intervals on conventional oil.



I wouldn't buy it with those drain intervals regardless of the type of oil used.





The data is very useful. The universal averages and ppm data show the obvious. That my engine is wearing very well. Where are your UOA's for conventional oils, let's compare and see how they look. :arrow:

See, here's where you fail in your argument.... the only way to compare is if you could somehow come up with matching data for YOUR vehicle with the same driving conditions/drain intervals/mileage etc... anything else is completely meaningless for comparison.

 

[Hitman]

I'll take a chance, it wouldn't be the first time I looked foolish. Please show current valid data that supports these outlandish claims.

This question was not posed to you.

But I'm sure you know that, right?

 

[bulldog-yota]

Don't play the semantics game with me.... you know damn well what I meant.

Anyone that has ever built an engine should know that the compression rings are not a perfect match with the crosshatch pattern on a freshly honed bore. This creates an opportunity for oil to pass THROUGH the tiny gaps between the rings and cylinder wall. BTW, the rings always have a gap, which should be staggered to minimize blow-by. But of course you should know that if you've built an engine before.

So supply the proof for your "fact" first. You are the one trying to play games since you can't supply the proof for the "fact" you stated. So I supplied proof by 2 major companies that state you can break your engine in with synthetic, and I think Mobil knows more about engines and oils that everybody on this board combined.

BTW you are showing how little you know in regards to engines. The compression rings have very little to do with oil passing by. That is why you have an oil ring assembly in the cylinder, compression rings are there for exactly what their name implies to ensure compression in the cylinder by sealing the bore around the piston area. And you normally "space" the compression ring gaps 90 or 180 degress from each other pending on the engine. Again they are not there to ensure oil "sealing". Take a small endine and take out the oil rings with brand new compression rings and see what happens. What will hapopen if the compression rings are worn is that it creates excessive pressure in the sump from pressure "blowing past" the compression rings and that creates oil consumption issues.

 

[bulldog-yota]

This question was not posed to you.

But I'm sure you know that, right?

AS I said previously, we can go round all night and bore evrybody to death.

I supplied proof to back my statement, why dont you quit palying games and supply reputabkle proof to back up your claimed "fact".

That's all I asked for before you chose to start playing word games. Now I'm not the only one.

Get the proof from a reputable source like a company that will get sued if they make an incorrect statement, like the ones I pointed to from both Amsoil and Mobil.

Ball is in your court now.

 

[bulldog-yota]

I think you are doing the right thing with the UOA on the new 4.0 V6 since it is a new engine and who knew how it would wear. Looks like a good one (but it is a Toyota). I have the 4.7 V8 and if you check out the UOA on bobistheoilguy on the Toyota 4.7 V8 you will see that it is one of the best engines based on UOA on any oil they have tested. It is just a great engine that is very very easy on oil. I think you could use any appropriate API rated oil and the 4.7 would out last the rest of the SUV. My 350Z owners manual states that Nissan does not recommend owners use synthetic oil in their engine. Several owners have used synthetic from the first day they bought their Z and several have had their engines replaced for extreme oil consumption. I have no idea if its the synthetic oil but I just follow Nissans instructions and use dino oil that is rated API per Nissans instructions and change it every 3000 miles. My Z does not have any oil related problems.

Thank you for some solid evidence that certain engines are not compatible with certain oils. I read on bob is the oil guy, and it seems lots of people are running syn on those engines really ok. SOme had the engine chew a qt or 2 SO Nissan states in the owner's manual do not use syn oil?? Interesting, it seems the oil nuts on that site haven't mentioned it yet.

Yeah I saw the reports on that site, and it seems you can run the V8 on cooking oil and it will still be happy. I'd rather not test that though

BTW, Hitman might want to go to that site, very informative. Again lots of people state no issues with running a new engine with syn, they just think it is a waste of $$ to swap it out so early.

 

[Hitman]

So supply the proof for your "fact" first. You are the one trying to play games since you can't supply the proof for the "fact" you stated. So I supplied proof by 2 major companies that state you can break your engine in with synthetic, and I think Mobil knows more about engines and oils that everybody on this board combined.



Funny that you mention that... I looked on the Amsoil website (which is a huge proponent of synthetic oils) and they recommened that you break in a new engine on conventional oil.

Read all about it here:

http://www.lubeus.com/convertingtoamsoil.php



BTW you are showing how little you know in regards to engines. The compression rings have very little to do with oil passing by. That is why you have an oil ring assembly in the cylinder, compression rings are there for exactly what their name implies to ensure compression in the cylinder by sealing the bore around the piston area. And you normally "space" the compression ring gaps 90 or 180 degress from each other pending on the engine. Again they are not there to ensure oil "sealing". Take a small endine and take out the oil rings with brand new compression rings and see what happens. What will hapopen if the compression rings are worn is that it creates excessive pressure in the sump from pressure "blowing past" the compression rings and that creates oil consumption issues.

Hahahhaa... you're a funny guy. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. The oil ring is just a "wiping" ring. The other rings (compression) are exactly what the oil gets past in an engine that is not fully broken in. You are stating my point exactly..... when an engine is in its break-in period, OIL can pass THROUGH the tiny gaps between the rings and the bore. When the cylinder bore crosshatch pattern is fully seated with the rings, then in theory, NO oil should pass by them. This is your first lesson to Auto mechanics 101.

 

[Hitman]

AS I said previously, we can go round all night and bore evrybody to death.

I supplied proof to back my statement, why dont you quit palying games and supply reputabkle proof to back up your claimed "fact".

That's all I asked for before you chose to start playing word games. Now I'm not the only one.

Get the proof from a reputable source like a company that will get sued if they make an incorrect statement, like the ones I pointed to from both Amsoil and Mobil.

Ball is in your court now.

Yup, already provided proof from Amsoils website that you should NOT break in a new engine with synthetic.

What do you want next?

 

[Hitman]

Thank you for some solid evidence that certain engines are not compatible with certain oils. I read on bob is the oil guy, and it seems lots of people are running syn on those engines really ok. SOme had the engine chew a qt or 2 SO Nissan states in the owner's manual do not use syn oil?? Interesting, it seems the oil nuts on that site haven't mentioned it yet.

Yeah I saw the reports on that site, and it seems you can run the V8 on cooking oil and it will still be happy. I'd rather not test that though

BTW, Hitman might want to go to that site, very informative. Again lots of people state no issues with running a new engine with syn, they just think it is a waste of $$ to swap it out so early.

I've already been there and read plenty....

Do you really believe that there aren't any manufacturers that recommend against using synthetic oil during the break-in period?

 

[Hitman]

From the Amsoil website (on converting to synthetic):

"That is why we recommend you run the factory installed petroleum oil for about the about the first 500 miles."

 

[bulldog-yota]

Yup, already provided proof from Amsoils website that you should NOT break in a new engine with synthetic.

What do you want next?

Hardly proof, from the exact website. Hardly proofs your "fact"

"This doesn't mean that you can't install AMSOIL sooner, as many OEM's install synthetics as a factory fill,"


Second from Amsoil's own official website,
"
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil can be used during break-in trouble free. In fact, vehicles such as Dodge Viper and Chevrolet Corvette come factory filled with synthetic oil.

Since most new vehicles come filled with petroleum oil, it only makes good sense to change to AMSOIL at the first scheduled oil change interval. New engine components generate high levels of wear metals and can contain contaminants from assembly. By allowing the engine to operate with the petroleum oil until the first oil/filter change interval, the wear metals and contaminants are removed prior to installing AMSOIL.

"

 

[Hitman]

Hardly proof, from the exact website. Hardly proofs your "fact"

"This doesn't mean that you can't install AMSOIL sooner, as many OEM's install synthetics as a factory fill,"


Second from Amsoil's own official website,
"
AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil can be used during break-in trouble free. In fact, vehicles such as Dodge Viper and Chevrolet Corvette come factory filled with synthetic oil.

Since most new vehicles come filled with petroleum oil, it only makes good sense to change to AMSOIL at the first scheduled oil change interval. New engine components generate high levels of wear metals and can contain contaminants from assembly. By allowing the engine to operate with the petroleum oil until the first oil/filter change interval, the wear metals and contaminants are removed prior to installing AMSOIL.

"

Once again you have a reading comprehension problem. Of course you can use synthetic during break-in on vehicles that come factory filled with synthetic. This is not groundbreaking news.