Opinions needed on a repair, please!

[68whiskey]

I took my '02 Sport in for the dreaded Pennsylvania state inspection today. With just under 271k on the clock, they only found ONE issue: the right rear axle seal is leaking. I know there are threads on how to do this on here, the problem is that I just don't have the time.

The mechanic quoted me around 700 for parts and labor. The shop does great work, and they're known to be reasonable and good at what they do. I know absolutely nothing other than its a time consuming process, and the fact that a lot of the parts are "one-time use" and need to be replaced. Does this seem reasonable?

I'd really appreciate any input. Its going to be a week before they can do it so I have a little time to figure it out. Thanks in advance!

 

[frodiesel]

I took my '02 Sport in for the dreaded Pennsylvania state inspection today. With just under 271k on the clock, they only found ONE issue: the right rear axle seal is leaking. I know there are threads on how to do this on here, the problem is that I just don't have the time.

The mechanic quoted me around 700 for parts and labor. The shop does great work, and they're known to be reasonable and good at what they do. I know absolutely nothing other than its a time consuming process, and the fact that a lot of the parts are "one-time use" and need to be replaced. Does this seem reasonable?

I'd really appreciate any input. Its going to be a week before they can do it so I have a little time to figure it out. Thanks in advance!

That was my quote to do both. I did em myself, thru a crap machine shop, but after 15k miles no leaks.. can't say i had a good experience, but from what i have learned, even the dealer can get it wrong so it pays to know the seal is riding in the right spot.

 

[Troybylt]

38-38.5 mm's from the housing flange that the dust O ring rides on is the appropriate depth by my measure.
Just make sure you buy 3 seals, one for the right side one for the left and one for the learning experience you will inevitably have.

 

[68whiskey]

That was my quote to do both. I did em myself, thru a crap machine shop, but after 15k miles no leaks.. can't say i had a good experience, but from what i have learned, even the dealer can get it wrong so it pays to know the seal is riding in the right spot.

This is kind of where I'm at after getting the quote. I know that I'm capable of doing the job, but I also know I would take forever doing it to make sure its right. did you do both at the same time? How long did that take you?

 

[68whiskey]

38-38.5 mm's from the housing flange that the dust O ring rides on is the appropriate depth by my measure.
Just make sure you buy 3 seals, one for the right side one for the left and one for the learning experience you will inevitably have.

Thats really my main concern, that it'll end up taking a lot longer than it should as I go through that inevitable learning experience.

 

[Troybylt]

Thats really my main concern, that it'll end up taking a lot longer than it should as I go through that inevitable learning experience.

Getting over the fear of "If I screw up that's a lot of money in parts down the drain" was really the hardest most time consuming part. Go slow, especially if you are doing your own press work, measure twice, or in my case like 15 times and take good notes. If your truck has been leak free for a good long while then reinstall everything at those measures. It took me about a day 10am-10pm to do everything start to finish. Including doing my own presswork.

Get a good digital vernier caliper!

 

[frodiesel]

Took me about an hour to get each side apart and the off to machine shop with only OEM parts. Then pick up at 5, debacle (search my posts the machine shop nicked my shaft) take in a diagram to show them the distsnce or they might just press the retainer flush to the abs ring. They pressed everything flush even though i thoroughly explained it a few times. Had to take it back in the morning and cry about my shaft and have them remove the retainers, and buy another oem set.

I eventually used a couple pieces of pvc to smash the retainer into the proper location. There is a special tool for sale on the forum to do it easy yourself. Just gotta have a press. Which is like 159 at harbor frieght. Nice tools to have. I will pay half that special tool if you ship it to me when your done. I plan to get another 4rnr soon.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Rear axle seals are one of the easiest things to do on these trucks. Basically:
1). Jack the truck up and remove the wheel
2). Remove the drum
3). Check brake fluid, fill till full.
4). Remove the 4 14mm nuts behind the brake shield.
5). Undo brake line
6). Remove axle
7). Use seal puller and remove the seal, taking care to not damage the axle housing.
8). Reinstall seal with a seal driver. Make sure the seal is straight in, flush against the outer metal ring inside the axle housing.
9). Reinstall axle, and brake line. When you put the axle shaft through the seal, make sure you don't damage the seal, or you will have to do it over. I just opened the brake bleeder and let it run for about 20 minutes to gravity drain (bleed).
10). Reassemble with new brakes (way harder than replacing the seal)
11). Top off rear diff

If you caught the leaking axle seal early enough, just replace the seal and brakes. If you didn't, the bearing will be bad and you will have to replace it (a lot more work and money).

Took me 10 minutes to have the axle and seal out.

 

[White Stripe]

With 271k, I would probably go ahead and replace the rear wheel bearings as well. Over 300k and they start to fail. Your getting close so might as well do it all. 700 sounds fair. Typical rear drum brake job is about 300 bucks alone usually. Make sure the drums get machined. If the axle nuts are overly rusty, that could also add to the labor to remove them. If your in PA, it's likely they are. Also check to see if your axle breather is not clogged.

 

[gamefreakgc]

With 271k, I would probably go ahead and replace the rear wheel bearings as well. Over 300k and they start to fail. Your getting close so might as well do it all. 700 sounds fair. Typical rear drum brake job is about 300 bucks alone usually. Make sure the drums get machined. If the axle nuts are overly rusty, that could also add to the labor to remove them. If your in PA, it's likely they are. Also check to see if your axle breather is not clogged.

My Toyota dealership (I did not do the work there, just bought parts) said they always replace the bearings, otherwise there's a high chance of the seal failing again quickly. I've done both sides now so should never have to do it again.

 

[68whiskey]

With 271k, I would probably go ahead and replace the rear wheel bearings as well. Over 300k and they start to fail. Your getting close so might as well do it all. 700 sounds fair. Typical rear drum brake job is about 300 bucks alone usually. Make sure the drums get machined. If the axle nuts are overly rusty, that could also add to the labor to remove them. If your in PA, it's likely they are. Also check to see if your axle breather is not clogged.

Thankfully, the 4Runner came from Idaho. There's zero rust, every single bolt is clean. I'm tempted to replace just the seal because the leak can't be that bad, there's nothing on the wheel so far. The only reason they knew it was leaking was when they pulled the wheel and everything off. However, it just doesn't seem right to get in there and not get everything else done as well.

 

[68whiskey]

Rear axle seals are one of the easiest things to do on these trucks. Basically:
1). Jack the truck up and remove the wheel
2). Remove the drum
3). Check brake fluid, fill till full.
4). Remove the 4 14mm nuts behind the brake shield.
5). Undo brake line
6). Remove axle
7). Use seal puller and remove the seal, taking care to not damage the axle housing.
8). Reinstall seal with a seal driver. Make sure the seal is straight in, flush against the outer metal ring inside the axle housing.
9). Reinstall axle, and brake line. I just opened the brake bleeder and let it run for about 20 minutes to gravity drain (bleed).
10). Reassemble with new brakes (way harder than replacing the seal)
11). Top off rear diff

If you caught the leaking axle seal early enough, just replace the seal and brakes. If you didn't, the bearing will be bad and you will have to replace it (a lot more work and money).

Took me 10 minutes to have the axle and seal out.

It appears to be early enough. But I haven't seen the brakes to see if they're covered or not. The simplicity of doing just the seal is tempting. Thank you for the mini write up!

 

[stir_fry_boy]

My Toyota dealership (I did not do the work there, just bought parts) said they always replace the bearings, otherwise there's a high chance of the seal failing again quickly. I've done both sides now so should never have to do it again.

That doesn't make sense to me. The seal wraps around the axle shaft, it doesn't seal against the bearing or backing plate. The ABS ring is between the seal and the axle bearing anyway. I've talked with Toyota master techs and shop foremans and the consensus is that if you catch it early, you can get away with just replacing the seal. If the bearing spins without issues when you have the axle out, you are good to go. I just replaced both rear axle seals only and brakes (original), been 10,000 miles and no issues.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

It appears to be early enough. But I haven't seen the brakes to see if they're covered or not. The simplicity of doing just the seal is tempting. Thank you for the mini write up!

It's hard to tell without spinning the shaft bearing with no resistance.

 

[gamefreakgc]

That doesn't make sense to me. The seal wraps around the axle shaft, it doesn't seal against the bearing or backing plate. The ABS ring is between the seal and the axle bearing anyway. I've talked with Toyota master techs and shop foremans and the consensus is that if you catch it early, you can get away with just replacing the seal. If the bearing spins without issues when you have the axle out, you are good to go. I just replaced both rear axle seals only and brakes (original), been 10,000 miles and no issues.

My guess is there's a very low tolerance for any sort of play in the bearings that would cause vibration in the axle, causing the seals to wear down and eventually fail. If you look at the really long rear axle sear thread we have on here there's a few people that had to do seals multiple times only to find out the bearings were at fault the whole time.

I don't necessarily enjoy doing repairs since I have to use my 4Runner to drive to work all the time so I did a complete job for peace of mind, knowing I'll never have to do it again. Bearings are only about $70 anyway.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

My guess is there's a very low tolerance for any sort of play in the bearings that would cause vibration in the axle, causing the seals to wear down and eventually fail. If you look at the really long rear axle sear thread we have on here there's a few people that had to do seals multiple times only to find out the bearings were at fault the whole time.

I don't necessarily enjoy doing repairs since I have to use my 4Runner to drive to work all the time so I did a complete job for peace of mind, knowing I'll never have to do it again. Bearings are only about $70 anyway.

Gotcha. That aligns with if the bearing is bad, replace everything. If the bearing is good, you can get away with just the seal. Correct?

 

[gamefreakgc]

Gotcha. That aligns with if the bearing is bad, replace everything. If the bearing is good, you can get away with just the seal. Correct?

Yeah, pretty much. At what point the bearings are "bad" seems to be the point of contention, so much so that the dealer doesn't even want to mess with it.

Rear axle seal failures are also common on 2nd Gen 4Runners and 3rd Gen Pickups with ADD instead of manual hubs, so I think there was some room for improvement in Toyota's rear axle design back then.

 

[68whiskey]

Yeah, pretty much. At what point the bearings are "bad" seems to be the point of contention, so much so that the dealer doesn't even want to mess with it.

Rear axle seal failures are also common on 2nd Gen 4Runners and 3rd Gen Pickups with ADD instead of manual hubs, so I think there was some room for improvement in Toyota's rear axle design back then.

I guess my question is that since I haven't heard or felt anything, aren't the chances of the bearing still being good fairly good as well? I understand that the only way to find out is to actually see what kind of shape its in once the axle is out, and go from there.

What is annoying me is that I called my Toyota dealership today to get a quote from them as well about having the seal changed. After waiting on hold for about ten minutes, the advisor came back and said that to change the seal I'm looking at two hours labor which was just over 200 dollars. I figured he would have at least quoted me for replacing everything, but I guess not. Between that and being transferred over to the parts department to get a separate quote for the parts, I gave up.

I know this seems like a simple issue to many, but for me its a decision between dumping a lot of money into one thing when it may just be the seal that needs replaced, or doing just the seal and putting the money id save elsewhere. I appreciate all of the input!

 

[White Stripe]

Do the bearings as well, thats a lot of miles on those bearings. My opinion

 

[mtbtim]

I haven't done this job. Decided to let my local Toyota dealership do it when I researched the repair and read horror stories about machine shops gouging axles and I thought the specialty tools needed would be cost prohibitive. Now that I know I could have gotten an affordable press at harbor freight and other specialty puller tools aren't too expensive, I wish I would have done the job myself. Through knowledge I gained on this forum, I found my driver side axle seal was leaking almost right away because the tech failed to do the grease test to verify the seal retainer was in the right position on the axle. I got them to fix their mistake and I quickly learned I knew more about this repair than the tech doing the job.

Unless I missed it, I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned that Toyota redesigned the axle seals some years ago. The new design has the lip of the seal sitting a little more inboard towards the differential (apprx 2mm). If you only replace the seals with new redesigned ones, the lip of the seal is going to be riding very close to the bevel of the retainer. If there's any play in the axle bearings (if there's lots of miles, there will be play), the seal will end up riding on the non-polished bevel surface, prematurely wear out and you have a leaking axle seal all over again and possibly replacing contaminated brake shoes.

From what I understand, in order for this fix to last, you should at least re-position the seal retainers a little more inboard so the the lip of the seal is riding closer to the center of the retainer and not near the edge. Then, before you bolt everything back together, you perform the grease test to verify the seal is riding on the retainer in a good position. Again, this is just me regurgitating what I've read and understand about our rear axles. I don't have first hand experience.