snowRunn3r
New member
Yup it feels very real now...
Pelfreybilt - See Update on Last Page
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Yup it feels very real now...
I got mine too. Besides disputing with your bank, are you doing anything else to try to get your money back?
Vegasjeepguy
New member
I’ve read through most of the 33 pages of this thread and dealt with a similar situation with concealed firearm coffee table company. I got the same run around with requests for patience, followed by excuses and finally “radio silence”. I was able to settle this through my credit card company which issued a refund. This was after I filed a complaint with the Missouri (home state of the company) Attorney Generals office which was conducting an investigation. I may have missed it, but has anyone filed a complaint with the CA Attorney Gerneral?
Bonyfattony
New member
Pb bk
I know this has already been posted but there are some really important key notes on this thread.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/pelfrey-informational-thread-one-post-condensed-version.567463/
A couple key notes i took from this was:
From: ETXTACOMA
Note: I would also advise the following from a personal finance standpoint. If you are successful in getting your money back through either your credit card or financial institution and you performed the chargeback AFTER 9/6/18. DO NOT IMMEDIATELY turn around and spend that money somewhere else. Transfer it to a savings account, make it cash and put it in a safe deposit box, whatever you want to do, but DO NO SPEND IT. It could be a couple weeks before more information is known and you don't want to be 3, 6, 9 weeks from now and all of a sudden that money is being Federally Ordered returned to the account it was removed from or it is just removed without notice from your account one day. Just a thought...
FROM INDY500DRIVER:
Ok, @ETXTacoma has just touched on something that I can shed a bit of light on further, and I think this will help others understand what their focus should be. I think what most people are confusing is that Pelfrey's in bankruptcy will directly affect all attempts to get money back for unfulfilled product purchases. Bankruptcy will only affect people who handed them cash for purchases, or paper checks in hand, literally. All the merchant accounts, be it ACH or Card, require a merchant application, with a personal credit check, etc.. it literally is just like applying for a loan... Now here is WHY the process of getting a merchant account for Card and/or ACH is much the same as getting a mortgage or loan... it is simply an extension of credit by a bank or a banking affiliate (third party processor, merchant account provider, etc)...
The point I am making is, once the merchant account provider approves an application, a contract is signed, and regardless of the merchant's corporate structure, LLC, Inc., LLP, the account is always personally guaranteed by officers, shareholders of said company applying for the merchant account. Now the reason for merchant account providers making every approved applicant guarantee personally is because that merchant account provider IS LIABLE for every transaction their merchants process, the personal guarantee erases something called 'piercing the corporate veil' in legal lawsuit world... If a merchant account was granted to a company and no personal guarantee was signed, then the merchant account provider cannot sue past the contracted party, being the company LLC or Inc. that is the merchant of record. Banks do not like to lose money.
If you're following me here, then you should understand that the Pelfrey bankruptcy is not to protect them from customers, its to protect them from banks coming after them for transactions processed that are being charged back, and personal creditors like credit cards, mortgages, etc.
... Still following, heres the 'money shot' (excuse pun). If your purchase from them was not cash-in-hand or a paper check, rather any electronic method,... be it either ACH, Credit, or Debit Card, you are completely able to get your money back, you do not need to involve yourself with the bankruptcy at all because you are not getting your money back from them.
The banks that underwrote, and approved their ACH/Credit/Debit Card merchant accounts are liable. There is no question to this, it is a basic surety that is written in the rules for NACHA (National Automated Clearing House Association, aka ACH), Visa, MasterCard, Discover, all require of banks in order to participate or use their 'electronic network' and maintain the integrity of said networks. So, what that means in terms regular people speak, if you want to play then you must be able to back up everything you do. It literally is that simple.
Since bank A, B or C approved, and allowed the Pelfreybilt company/website/company owners to process transactions and take money from customers, bank A, B, or C is liable if the merchant becomes insolvent. And just for clarity, lets say A, B, or C bank that granted the ability all of a sudden goes belly up, then the network takes the hit.
There are always three sides to a transaction, the issuing bank (customers credit/debit/checking account), the network (V, MC, D, ACH), and the acquiring bank (the merchant account provider). The only time there are not three sides to a transaction is AMEX, because Amex is a bank, and a network, and an issuer and a merchant account provider, all in one, they are their own entity, completely, and for those who paid with AMEX, just in case, AMEX ALWAYS takes the cardholder side, almost never will they take the merchant side in a dispute.
SO, focus on dealing with your respective method of payment, if you paid by ACH, contact your bank, if you paid by Debit, contact your banks debit dispute dept, if you paid by a credit card, then contact the issuer which also may be your bank, for example, Chase Sapphire is a credit card.
DO NOT SETTLE FOR A NO, DO NOT TAKE WHAT THE CUSTOMER SUPPORT REP ON THE PHONE SAYS AS GOSPEL, THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG... if your debit/credit card was a Visa you have 540 days forward of the original transaction date. If you have a MasterCard debit/credit card, you have 120 days from the latest promised date of delivery, or 120 days from the insolvency of the business... if ACH, you have 60 days but you can demand a 'REG E' form be done which basically puts it into review by NACHA, and it should not be denied IMO....
Sorry for the bible length post but just want you all to know that the reason Visa, MasterCard are even in business is because you have no recourse in cash world, that was the original marketing and idea behind cards instead of cash back in the beginning of Visa and MasterCard days in the 50s and 60s..
edited to add info;
One more thing, if YOU initiated the transaction, i.e. sent them money, like a wire, or one of those 'PayPal-like' methods within your bank, or PayPal friends-and-family, then your recourse is the legal route... if THEY initiated the transaction, meaning they used one of their merchant accounts, then you have the recourse of the respective network used as mentioned above (V, MC, D, Amex, ACH)
ALSO INDY500DRIVER
****
You could go to court to petition for the judge to NOT grant them Chapter 7, AND YOU SHOULD DEMAND to be removed from a creditor list because none of you are lenders, you dont have loan agreements with them as lenders you have purchase receipts for products you ordered, any judge will see right through them here and remove you all.
Even if you are listed as a creditor, you are not getting your money back from them anyway by disputing, you're getting it back from a guarantor of their ACH/Credit/Debit merchant accounts. Remember, you won't be getting your money back from them, so dont worry if you're listed as their creditor, but even so, I would blatantly say openly to the court if you can, that you and most of the people listed on that BK document aren't lenders, their customers. The judge will turn red with anger and I would not be a bit shocked if their petition for bankruptcy is denied because of this or they are required to remove all people except actual lenders.
****
I know this has already been posted but there are some really important key notes on this thread.
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/pelfrey-informational-thread-one-post-condensed-version.567463/
A couple key notes i took from this was:
From: ETXTACOMA
Note: I would also advise the following from a personal finance standpoint. If you are successful in getting your money back through either your credit card or financial institution and you performed the chargeback AFTER 9/6/18. DO NOT IMMEDIATELY turn around and spend that money somewhere else. Transfer it to a savings account, make it cash and put it in a safe deposit box, whatever you want to do, but DO NO SPEND IT. It could be a couple weeks before more information is known and you don't want to be 3, 6, 9 weeks from now and all of a sudden that money is being Federally Ordered returned to the account it was removed from or it is just removed without notice from your account one day. Just a thought...
FROM INDY500DRIVER:
Ok, @ETXTacoma has just touched on something that I can shed a bit of light on further, and I think this will help others understand what their focus should be. I think what most people are confusing is that Pelfrey's in bankruptcy will directly affect all attempts to get money back for unfulfilled product purchases. Bankruptcy will only affect people who handed them cash for purchases, or paper checks in hand, literally. All the merchant accounts, be it ACH or Card, require a merchant application, with a personal credit check, etc.. it literally is just like applying for a loan... Now here is WHY the process of getting a merchant account for Card and/or ACH is much the same as getting a mortgage or loan... it is simply an extension of credit by a bank or a banking affiliate (third party processor, merchant account provider, etc)...
The point I am making is, once the merchant account provider approves an application, a contract is signed, and regardless of the merchant's corporate structure, LLC, Inc., LLP, the account is always personally guaranteed by officers, shareholders of said company applying for the merchant account. Now the reason for merchant account providers making every approved applicant guarantee personally is because that merchant account provider IS LIABLE for every transaction their merchants process, the personal guarantee erases something called 'piercing the corporate veil' in legal lawsuit world... If a merchant account was granted to a company and no personal guarantee was signed, then the merchant account provider cannot sue past the contracted party, being the company LLC or Inc. that is the merchant of record. Banks do not like to lose money.
If you're following me here, then you should understand that the Pelfrey bankruptcy is not to protect them from customers, its to protect them from banks coming after them for transactions processed that are being charged back, and personal creditors like credit cards, mortgages, etc.
... Still following, heres the 'money shot' (excuse pun). If your purchase from them was not cash-in-hand or a paper check, rather any electronic method,... be it either ACH, Credit, or Debit Card, you are completely able to get your money back, you do not need to involve yourself with the bankruptcy at all because you are not getting your money back from them.
The banks that underwrote, and approved their ACH/Credit/Debit Card merchant accounts are liable. There is no question to this, it is a basic surety that is written in the rules for NACHA (National Automated Clearing House Association, aka ACH), Visa, MasterCard, Discover, all require of banks in order to participate or use their 'electronic network' and maintain the integrity of said networks. So, what that means in terms regular people speak, if you want to play then you must be able to back up everything you do. It literally is that simple.
Since bank A, B or C approved, and allowed the Pelfreybilt company/website/company owners to process transactions and take money from customers, bank A, B, or C is liable if the merchant becomes insolvent. And just for clarity, lets say A, B, or C bank that granted the ability all of a sudden goes belly up, then the network takes the hit.
There are always three sides to a transaction, the issuing bank (customers credit/debit/checking account), the network (V, MC, D, ACH), and the acquiring bank (the merchant account provider). The only time there are not three sides to a transaction is AMEX, because Amex is a bank, and a network, and an issuer and a merchant account provider, all in one, they are their own entity, completely, and for those who paid with AMEX, just in case, AMEX ALWAYS takes the cardholder side, almost never will they take the merchant side in a dispute.
SO, focus on dealing with your respective method of payment, if you paid by ACH, contact your bank, if you paid by Debit, contact your banks debit dispute dept, if you paid by a credit card, then contact the issuer which also may be your bank, for example, Chase Sapphire is a credit card.
DO NOT SETTLE FOR A NO, DO NOT TAKE WHAT THE CUSTOMER SUPPORT REP ON THE PHONE SAYS AS GOSPEL, THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG... if your debit/credit card was a Visa you have 540 days forward of the original transaction date. If you have a MasterCard debit/credit card, you have 120 days from the latest promised date of delivery, or 120 days from the insolvency of the business... if ACH, you have 60 days but you can demand a 'REG E' form be done which basically puts it into review by NACHA, and it should not be denied IMO....
Sorry for the bible length post but just want you all to know that the reason Visa, MasterCard are even in business is because you have no recourse in cash world, that was the original marketing and idea behind cards instead of cash back in the beginning of Visa and MasterCard days in the 50s and 60s..
edited to add info;
One more thing, if YOU initiated the transaction, i.e. sent them money, like a wire, or one of those 'PayPal-like' methods within your bank, or PayPal friends-and-family, then your recourse is the legal route... if THEY initiated the transaction, meaning they used one of their merchant accounts, then you have the recourse of the respective network used as mentioned above (V, MC, D, Amex, ACH)
ALSO INDY500DRIVER
****
You could go to court to petition for the judge to NOT grant them Chapter 7, AND YOU SHOULD DEMAND to be removed from a creditor list because none of you are lenders, you dont have loan agreements with them as lenders you have purchase receipts for products you ordered, any judge will see right through them here and remove you all.
Even if you are listed as a creditor, you are not getting your money back from them anyway by disputing, you're getting it back from a guarantor of their ACH/Credit/Debit merchant accounts. Remember, you won't be getting your money back from them, so dont worry if you're listed as their creditor, but even so, I would blatantly say openly to the court if you can, that you and most of the people listed on that BK document aren't lenders, their customers. The judge will turn red with anger and I would not be a bit shocked if their petition for bankruptcy is denied because of this or they are required to remove all people except actual lenders.
****
Well, that's certainly encouraging and very informative for all of us!
Now, let's get on board and find someone legit to copy their bumper. Or, get Budbuilt to put their version into production. For me, I would only need the basic setup, no swingouts, so Bud's is perfectly fine.
Now, let's get on board and find someone legit to copy their bumper. Or, get Budbuilt to put their version into production. For me, I would only need the basic setup, no swingouts, so Bud's is perfectly fine.
wfo9
New member
You really want that bumper cover after all this. You really think it was a good product?
I'm genuinely curious if people have figured it out yet.
If you want something here are a few rear bumper brands I would trust.
Shockworks
HeaftyFab
SSO
4x4Labs
CBI
There are others too, but I've seen their work and each one makes decent quality stuff. Depends on your goals though as to which one is best for for your perceived need. Factory cover is generally best though. The aftermarket stuff is not necessary for what most people do. It's more for playing dress up for most. I understand the looks are a big part of it though. We all fall for it to some extent.
Last edited:
honda250xtitan
New member
why not just post this in the other thread......mods will shut this down anyways.
I thought their rear bumper was a good design, just didn't come to fruition.
BB's version as on Gadget's truck is perfectly fine and certainly worth pursuing. If so many of YOU wanted to buy PF's version, then why not get BB to build it? Or, at least offer their version with some PF improvements.
BB's version as on Gadget's truck is perfectly fine and certainly worth pursuing. If so many of YOU wanted to buy PF's version, then why not get BB to build it? Or, at least offer their version with some PF improvements.
codyHTX
Member
you want a no-cut super high clearance steel rear bumper? buy 4x4 labs or C4
you want a super high clearance light weight aluminum rear bumper and don't mind cutting plastic? buy hefty fab
if you don't want swing arms/accessory mounts then i have no clue why you'd want pelfreys to begin with.
i feel for y'all caught up in this situation, I'm angry and not even personally involved, but nice to see the community rallying to help one another thru this crap. hope everyone is made whole again...
PF's has the high sides right up to the tail lights and bolt on without cutting.
BB's on gadget's is the same:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/146674-front-rear-bumbers-5th-generation.html#post1440484
Again, since there are so many who wanted this design, and were willing towait months for it, surely they may still want to acquire it from a reputable source?
BB's on gadget's is the same:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/146674-front-rear-bumbers-5th-generation.html#post1440484
Again, since there are so many who wanted this design, and were willing towait months for it, surely they may still want to acquire it from a reputable source?
Jetboy
New member
sn_85
Senior Member
Seriously, I think there may be 3 bumpers out in the wild. 1 went on their own car and 2 in customer hands. I know there was a lot of hype on the product but in no way can you say it passed the test of time. There's just not enough samples out there to say it's any superior to the other products just because of all the hype.
The Waco Kid
New member
totalnobody
New member
I am soooo glad I did not pull the trigger on the PF rear bumper 2 months ago.
I was just about to.
I would have been sucked into this mess.
Thinking about going with the C4 rear dual swings
I was just about to.
I would have been sucked into this mess.
Thinking about going with the C4 rear dual swings
Jetboy
New member
Mounting is pretty straight forward. Lots of available attachment points under there.
The hard part for 99% of small shops is forming the steel to make it look nice without having to weld and smooth all of the joints. It's very labor intensive. The only way to do it cost effectively is with a big press and a design that lends its self to such a manufacturing technique. Ideally a VERY big press and you can stamp the entire thing in one go, but you'd never sell enough to recover the cost of the tooling.
And Toyota sure didn't make the design language very easy to match.
rayofsi
New member
i pointed out the picture pelfrey sent me of the mounting.. this mount is very robust. factory hitch points and other mounting points also. i think some bumpers are mounted only via factory hitch points?
ayeyothisiskyle
Member
That is pretty much how my proline rear is mounted. I can't imagine a steel bumper is only connected through the factory hitch points.
eeeeehhhh
One of these requires extensive cutting and welding. Just not of plastic
Well both kind of require frame modification. With the C4, you have to beat down the spare tire mount-tensioner-thingies (I havent had my coffee yet) to make room for the bumper to slide over the frame. One of the reasons I went with proline. Though I wouldn't recommend them because customer service was crap in my experience.
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