Performance Upgrades

The first sign that you're uneducated about performance tunes is your insistent on calling it a chip. It's not surprising though since your degree has very little to do with the topic at hand.

I remember a day when you actually had a "chip" that you would bust open the ECM and solder in place but those days are long gone.

You also obviously never studied anything or have a grasp on how an internal combustion engine works if you cannot see how changing an engines spark and fuel parameters. Tuning tools such as EFI Live, HP Tuners, Smarty allow you to do this and so much more. Fine tune nearly every single electronic event that happens in the vehicle.

You combine these types of software upgrades with hard parts like better flowing exhaust and intakes the gains are multiplied significantly.
 
Fuel economy is a part of that as well. Went from 11mpg to 15 in my 2500HD along with better throttle response and significant power gains across the entire RPM range. All from a simple thing called tuning. No hard parts what so ever
 
The first sign that you're uneducated about performance tunes is your insistent on calling it a chip. It's not surprising though since your degree has very little to do with the topic at hand.
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I'm NOT the one calling it a chip...It's the manufactures...and the OP calling it a chip. I'm just referring to what they are calling it.

Second off...my field is EXACTLY on what computer chips are...Geez are you ignorant.

You also obviously never studied anything or have a grasp on how an internal combustion engine works if you cannot see how changing an engines spark and fuel parameters.
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Again...you ignorance is showing....Of course by changing the parameters you can effect performance. But if you actually understood how the "performance chips" work you would know that all you are doing is changing the look-up table the ECU's program is using to set the timing and gas/air mixture. The chip is NOT actually changing the programming...just the parameters used by the program.

Still waiting on your answers...to the questions.

Get back to me when you have those answers. I tired of playing with children.
 
heres some independent testing results of HP gains from just a cold air intake

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tQetE2V6iXkPIRG35oX6CFQ&single=true&gid=1&output=html

heres some independent testing results of HP gains from just a performance exhaust

Pypes Performance Exhaust - Home Page

and then these are the dyno results of adding all this to a 1GR v6 engine and then tuning it with a unichip programmer. (crank power/toque not actual ground power/ torque readings)

http://www.unichip.us/system/uploads/assets/Dyno Sheets/MY07 FJ Cruiser.pdf

answer any questions mike... looks like all of these items provide gains and when put together as well as tuned correctly can have a signifigant impact on power. I did notice with that unichip it seems to improve the low end torque/HP the best.. i thought you knew how to use google mike?

and if anyones interested in the programmer here is a link to it: http://www.andysautosport.com/toyot...e/performance_chips/unichip/uchi00182687.html
 
Those are NOT independent tests.

To be independent they must NOT be associated with the manufacturer or the company that's selling the product.
 
MikeInNH said:
Those are NOT independent tests.

To be independent they must NOT be associated with the manufacturer or the company that's selling the product.
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ok the one with just the exhaust was from pypes or whatever the company name is my bad geez, anyway the other two were certainly independent the FJ dyno sheet came from a personal FJ cruiser owner who did the R&D himself doesn't get much more independent than that ill post my source for the FJ dyno sheet if you dont believe me i just showed you the .pdf he loaded to google.

bottom line here is
A.) If someone payed 900 dollars for a cat back exhaust and recieved no benefit why would they not send it back? (theres still plenty of guys buying and running them)

B.) why would all of the automotive groups push, recommend, or advise on upgrading exhaust, intake and computer flashing to be the most budgeted way of gaining a little more power (and when i say automotive groups i dont mean vendors i mean actual automotive gear head groups that do nothing more than squeeze every ounce of power they can get out of there engines)

C.) have you personally tested any of these items yourself to speak of results or better yet why dont you show me results of tests that show CAI's, performance exhausts, and power programmers dont work or arn't effective.

I'm not saying that by installing these modifications your going to be running with nascar; however, they will improve MPG's, Horse power, torque, and overall performance, sound, and drivability of any vehicle.

It's always been an engine performance law, more air, more fuel, more exhaust flow= more power it matters not how you accomplish those gains they all have the same end goal.
 
there are way more things than that, that effect miles per gallon. outside temperature, humidity, alltitude, inclines.. etc. Im talking about 1 mpg gain here not anything you would notice in your wallet. You can delete the A/C clutch pully and run a shorter belt and gain mpg's you can remove the clutch fan and go to electric and gain mpgs, you can lean the fuel mixture out burning more oxigen with the fuel and get better mpg's. all that plus those two things mentioned and then some.... gear ratios, 2wd/4wd the type of greese in your bearings, the friction of the brake bads just barely resting on rotors...
 
Couple of quick points...

~Forced Induction is often the easiest and most popular way to make large amounts of increased power. More often than not the cost and effort to modify an engine for power is in favor of forced induction rather than natural aspiration.

~Computerization is a double edge sword, it allows us to control virtually every aspect of the engine minus the physical block and head shape at the cost of complexity and requiring most technicians to understand computer programming and networking to a degree.

~ALL production engines are limited in power/performace due to the need to meet strict EPA regulations. This allows some wiggle room for people to play with fuel maps and tune the ECU for some performance gains.

~Engines need Spark (we will include timing as part of this), Fuel, and Air to run properly. This also means that playing with any of the three items requires you to adjust the other two in response. Eventually you hit a wall for stock components, hence why we have upgraded injectors, new intake manifolds, ect ect.

~Performance is a very vauge blanket on a vehicle. Anything from power to weight ratio to torque band vs. peak horsepower, to any of the many aspects of a vehicle one can modify for performance.

Finally, why the hell are we arguing for two pages about this?
 
I'm no expert on this stuff so am a little hesitant to 'chip' in but what the hell.

I've tuned a few cars a little and even had an old chevy I fixed up years ago but I made more mistakes than good decisions so don't trust me for anything.

Now, it seems like to me after spending some hard earned money and seeing my friends spend their hard earned money on American cars and imports that there aren't any cheap magic bullets that suddenly make your car faster. I'm not sure if the OP was asking about that kind of thing…. But...

Cars, like a lot of things, are systems. You can add one thing and it might actually decrease performance, add a second or third item to exploit that first thing and suddenly it becomes useful. I remember I had a Dodge Daytona (piece of **** really) that I screwed around with the Blow Off valve and ran a vacuum hose to the interior of the car. I could turn a dial and get that boost cranked up so high the engine would start pinging and cutting out under full throttle. I could've added bigger injectors and a better fuel pump but it was a Dodge Daytona fer Pete's sake. Torque steer alone would keep it from being a 'fast' car. The vacuum hose made a cool sound inside the car though.

With a vehicle like the 4Runner there doesn't seem to be a lot of 'bolt-on' performance mods available that will upgrade the 'system' for little money (relatively speaking, of course).

I've built up old VW engines and we could actually get em going pretty good within their limits. Doing wheelies through stoplights was fun at the time. I've got a friend who has a shop specializing in German tuning (BMWs, VW, Audis etc) and they can do some amazing stuff - but it ain't cheap and it ain't 'bolt on'.

When I used to be into Datsuns the best upgrade was to pull the engine an pop in a 280ZX turbo engine (or drop in a V8). Below that was going from a 2carb to a 3carb setup. Some people would replace heads and pistons to increase compression - building strokers basically. So, maybe it just depends the definition of 'bolt-on" I don't consider building a stroker "bolt on" even if there are plenty of bolts involved.

And of course there's the complexity issue. The more stuff you start throwing at some of these engines the more complex they can be (again, relatively speaking, of course).

So…. OP. If you want the most bang - pull your motor and go Bi-Turbo. Below that, I'd say go supercharger Much less hassle and fabrication. Other than that, you've got the old standbys of Cold Air Intakes, Throttle body spacers and "chips' (tuning). Personally I prefer a corn based chip to a potato based chip (with extra hot salsa) but that's just my preference. I don't think 'chipping' (tuning) a stock truck is gonna do a whole lot without being smart about the rest of the system - but it's your money. And I still find myself looking at those damn K&N filters at the local Pep Boys when I'm in there buying wax and what not.

Your ride will feel a little zippier, just like new tires are always grippier. Your ride might sound a little faster (Magnaflows!) and it might even be. But ultimately you have to ask yourself if the juice is worth the squeeze. Is $500 really worth 5HP? No one can answer that….

Ironically, there's an ad for "gforcechip' at the bottom of this thread advertising a $69 'chip' that will give you 60HP and 7 MPG. I call bullsh1t: http://www.gfchips.com/toyota4runner.aspx

The number one speed increase for me is always a couple of beers and some good tunes. :beer: :police:

Wait, I mean, a clean car. Yeah, clean cars definitely run better. Wash your car and enjoy.

BTW.. OP, nice 4Runner. I like the stance of those wheels. Look forward to seeing pics with the bumper!

Oh, almost forgot. Pacers rule! :D

pacerad800%20copy.jpg
 
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At the risk of being called an idiot or something worse, I'll share my experience with ECU programming. I purchased a programmer from Hypertech for my 2001 Chevrolet S-10 (4.3L V6, auto, K&N, Flowmaster) in late 2001. Mine was one of the first runs of the programmer, and they asked me to use it and return a 'survey' on how it performed.
Well, I can say that it did make quite a difference in performance, although I don't have dyno sheets or data to show it. On the flip side, though, I feel that using the programmer really hurt the emission controls on my truck. I burned through O2 sensors and EGR valves like crazy. As for MPG, I really can't say; the truck was faster so I drove it faster.
In all, the added performance was nice, but I wouldn't buy another one. Maybe because I'm older and don't care as much about 0-60 times as I used to, but it wasn't worth the added wear on other components.
 
At the risk of sounding like I am bashing you, your first mistake was buying a "canned tune" like a hypertech. You absolutely cannot do that with a gasoline engine, with diesel it's pretty easy to just dump loads of fuel and create power.

That is why custom tunes are key and specific to each and every vehicle and can be tuned with your vehicle mods and altitude and driving habits.

Before I drove to see Justin I had a data logger attached to my truck for a week to record my driving habits and engine parameters. This ensured I had the most optimal tune for my truck.
 
It does without a doubt improve fuel economy and it's not a chip it's complete tuning software done with a computer and dyno.
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All the tuning software is doing is playing with the lookup tables. The ECU is on one EPROM..the tables are on another EPROM. You either replace the EPROM with new tables....OR you use a computer that will make rewrite the EPROM that contains the table. I know EPROM is a big word for you.

Either way you're either replacing the EPROM with one that's already programed OR you are rewriting the existing EPROM. And BTW...EPROM's ARE ON A CHIP.

The fine tuning is NOT in any way touching with the algorithms (I know another big word for you) on the ECU. By federal law they can't...and it would take a lot more sophisticated setup to do that. All a tuner can do is fool around with the tables.

Sorry but try not to talk about computers...you haven't a clue.

Again...still waiting on your PROOF on your claims...or the answer to the question I posed about radar. We both know...and trust me...every else reading this thread knows...you will NEVER be able to answer them.
 
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A.) If someone payed 900 dollars for a cat back exhaust and recieved no benefit why would they not send it back? (theres still plenty of guys buying and running them)

B.) why would all of the automotive groups push, recommend, or advise on upgrading exhaust, intake and computer flashing to be the most budgeted way of gaining a little more power (and when i say automotive groups i dont mean vendors i mean actual automotive gear head groups that do nothing more than squeeze every ounce of power they can get out of there engines)
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Mainly because there's a sucker born every minute. They don't have to please ALL the masses. A national company can make MILLIONS if they can sell to less then 1% of the population. There's also the placebo effect. People are gullible.

Do a google search on Kevin Trudeau. You've probably seen him on TV selling one of his many many scams. NOT ONE of his products is worth even 10 cents...yet this guy has made tens of MILLIONS of dollars. So tell me how he can still possibly still be in business?? The market does NOT always clean up after itself. That's been proven time and time again over the past 200+ years.

And if these simple devices can easily increase gas mileage and improve performance..then why isn't every single automotive manufacturer in the world doing this??

The automotive market is full of devices like this...even some have been around for DECADES....

Every hear of Slick-50?? PROVEN time and time again to be nothing but snake oil. Not ONE independent test (there have been hundreds if not thousands since this product has been around) that shows the product does even 2% of what it claims.

If you look back at old advertisements (from the 70's and 80's) you'll find that their main ingredient they used was Teflon. Now they say it's PTFE. PTFE IS Teflon. Back in the late 80's Dupont (the company that invented Teflon) did their own independent tests on Slick-50. They were baffled by slick-50's claim about how the Teflon would stick to the cylinder walls. Dupont only knew of one process to make Teflon stick to a metal surface...and suspended in hot moving oil was NOT it. So after extensive testing...they proved that Slick-50 could NOT do what it claimed. And since they owned the right to the Teflon name....they forced Slick-50 to remove it from their product. Dupont LOVED companies to use the Teflon name on their products. It was great advertising for them. But they didn't like it used by companies like Slick-50 with their bogus claims. So Slick-50 removed the name Teflon and replaced it with the chemical name PTFE (which you can't trademark).

Even after all this Slick-50 is still around. It's over a billion dollar a year company. They've expanded their product line into transmissions and even fuel additives. So tell me...how is this company still around.

Do you know how many perpetual motion machines have been sold in this country???? If you don't know...a perpetual motion machine is IMPOSSIBLE. There have been many over the years...Some people have made MILLIONS off of them. They are still around.




C.) have you personally tested any of these items yourself to speak of results or better yet why dont you show me results of tests that show CAI's, performance exhausts, and power programmers dont work or arn't effective.
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Nope...Don't have the time or proper equipment. But the EPA along with Popular Mechanics and Popular Science have done tests on many of these devices. Look it up...not too hard to find.

aha - You seem somewhat intelligent and reasonable (as opposed to bowtie who's a complete wacko). Everything I've just said can be found on the internet. Look it up. Don't take a companies advertising word about a product. Be skeptical. That's how the free market works. If more were skeptical and not as gullible then companies like Slick-50 never would have survived even 1 year....They've been around over 40 years now.
 
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At the risk of being called an idiot or something worse, I'll share my experience with ECU programming. I purchased a programmer from Hypertech for my 2001 Chevrolet S-10 (4.3L V6, auto, K&N, Flowmaster) in late 2001. Mine was one of the first runs of the programmer, and they asked me to use it and return a 'survey' on how it performed.
Click to expand...

The LAST performance upgrade I ever did on a vehicle was my 84 GMC S-15 with the 2.8L V6. That engine was a DOG. The engine was carburated.

Added Eldebrock Intake manifold and tuned headers. Like you I didn't run any dyno tests..but there was a noticeable increase in performance. One hill I drove I no longer had to shift down to 4th to go up. I could stay in 5th the whole way.

As I said..there are SOME vehicles that MAY benefit from some of the aftermarket add-ons...but in general...NO. And 20% claims in increased performance in gas mileage...Show me the proof.
 
Lucas Oil is today's Slick-50. Amazing successful company / owner.
Have you seen their little demo gear set you can crank away on at the auto parts stores ? The stuff works great ! (on unloaded plastic gears)

Truth is there were lots of miracle oil additives that worked great in the old demonstrations of how long an engine would run after having the stuff drained from the crankcase. The bad news was the chlorinated chemicals in them would eat up internal parts fairly quickly.

And "moly" additives had their own problems as well.
 
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