Possible engine replacement or rebuild

[clt750]

So last week I posted a thread that I have been told that my heads or head gaskets are failing. With the expense of just doing the head gaskets, head work, and timing belt stuff done I am thinking of going down the road of a rebuild or a lower mileage engine or crate motor. I just dont feel right spending a ton of money on top end stuff and not knowing what is going on in the lower end. I dont have the space or capability at this time to attempt to do this work on my own so I will have it done at a shop.

Ive really been trying to land the plane on what to do but I cant decide. Keep it and dump some coin into it , or sell as is and move on.

Looking for thoughts from people who have researched and bought a used motor or have had one rebuilt. Pros / Cons? Is the 3.4 5VZFE still made today? Ive heard something about the JDMs not being a direct drop in. Is this true?

Cheers
Curt

 

[gamefreakgc]

So last week I posted a thread that I have been told that my heads or head gaskets are failing. With the expense of just doing the head gaskets, head work, and timing belt stuff done I am thinking of going down the road of a rebuild or a lower mileage engine or crate motor. I just dont feel right spending a ton of money on top end stuff and not knowing what is going on in the lower end. I dont have the space or capability at this time to attempt to do this work on my own so I will have it done at a shop.

Ive really been trying to land the plane on what to do but I cant decide. Keep it and dump some coin into it , or sell as is and move on.

Looking for thoughts from people who have researched and bought a used motor or have had one rebuilt. Pros / Cons? Is the 3.4 5VZFE still made today? Ive heard something about the JDMs not being a direct drop in. Is this true?

Cheers
Curt

I've been down the same road, was about 3 1/2 years ago. Had some damage to the cylinder head so needed a new head (it's a possibility with a head gasket failure the head can crack) and new gaskets. With over 200K miles on the engine and losing compression I went with a low mileage 50K mile JDM engine straight from the shipping container. Still had the sawdust packing all over it.

The primary reason why I went with a JDM over a rebuilt is that my engine was very tired and there was a lot of things that were failing on it. Heads and valves needed a ton of work and the oil was neglected by the previous owner so it was oil starved for a while. I didn't trust that a rebuilt would last very long. It is an individual decision to do based on the history of the engine and if you think you can get another 100K out of it with a rebuild vs a low mileage replacement. I've heard more horror stories though with machine shops screwing up a rebuilt than swapping in a factory spec and untouched low mileage replacement.

There is a laundry list of items that have to be moved over from your USDM engine to the new JDM engine. Intake, crank pulley, ignition, engine wire harness are just a few. There's some threads you can search for that detail it more. It is not drop-in as it and will not run if one were to try.

The last thing to consider though is COST. 3 1/2 years ago it was a very different place and I paid $1300 for a 50K JDM motor. Add in $500 of fluids gaskets and other parts I replaced and I had it done in my garage over a few months for $1800 total. I do not think in this seemingly permanently supply disrupted global economy you can get a JDM for $1300 anymore. At some point the cost will tip it in favor of going with a rebuild. Replacement low-mileage 5VZ-FE engines were already getting scarce when I shopped for mine.

I suggest shopping around for a low-mileage 5VZ-FE and figure out labor if you cannot do it yourself. Then ask a machine shop what a full rebuild would cost and compare. I would consider a dressed long block or crate motor as a last resort. You'll easily pay $3000 for just the engine and they are usually just rebuilds anyway.

 

[Endlessblockades]

It's a tough call which way to go. I'll be watching this thread for expert advice because I'd like to know what the best options are, too. On one end of the spectrum is the Yota1 Performance complete (with OEM and better parts) fully rebuilt at north of $5000 with a 7-8 month lead time (Timmy has the info on why they went this way and a multipart YT series on the swap) or a used motor from a recycler/salvage yard..I see $800 mystery motors all the way up to $2000 claimed 77k miles with a '5 year warranty' and 'free shipping'.....

Yota1: 5VZ 3.4L Rebuilt Toyota Engine (Complete) - Yota1 Performance, Inc.

 

[JoeT4R]

Going to be watching this thread just to grow my knowledge base.
[MENTION=115347]gamefreakgc[/MENTION] Could you explain what exactly a JDM engine means? I know it’s probably simple— but is it like a used engine from an overseas Hilux Surf or something? I know a guy who has a JDM 5VZ in his 3rd gen but I just would like some clarity.

 

[JohnMc]

JDM - used motors from Japan. They almost always claim to be low mileage and well maintained, and certainly, some of them probably are. I wouldn't buy one without getting the results of a compression test done on it. And the problem with a JDM engine (other than it possibly being high mileage and/or poorly maintained, despite what the importer says) is that it doesn't have new HG's either, it could leave you in the same boat before long.

The 5VZ has a problem shared with many motors - alu heads on an iron block. As the engine warms up, they expand at different rates, and the block and head scoot against each other, with the HG in between being scrubbed every heat cycle. Over time, this wears out. More related to the number of cold starts than the miles.

Toyota went through 4 (or 5?) design iterations on the HG's through the 3rd gen time frame. Starting with a largely conventional style (fiber stuff with steel rings around the chambers) that is very prone to failure with enough heat cycles. Then they did some hybrid styles, with increasingly larger steel areas covering more of the conventional fiber parts. And eventually ending up with a complete steel 'MLS' style gasket, coupled with a different finish on the head and block. That is pretty immune to being worn by the head and block scooting against each other.

So if your engine is in pretty good shape aside from a HG, and you put the latest style gasket on, you'll be good for a long time. If you get a low miles/well maintained JDM engine with one of the earlier HG styles on it from the factory, you might be back in the same situation again at some point.

 

[phattyduck]

[MENTION=115347]gamefreakgc[/MENTION] Could you explain what exactly a JDM engine means? I know it’s probably simple— but is it like a used engine from an overseas Hilux Surf or something? I know a guy who has a JDM 5VZ in his 3rd gen but I just would like some clarity.

JDM = Japanese Domestic Market. Meaning parts delivered or meant for delivery to Japan.

The "JDM" 5vz's out there are almost all from from vans (HiAce, I believe) instead of Surfs. This means that most of the parts on the outside of the engine (basically everything but the long block) must be changed due to the different mounting and packaging in the different vehicle. At least the engine itself (block, heads, etc.) is the same as the USDM 5VZ engines.

-Charlie

 

[gamefreakgc]

JDM - used motors from Japan. They almost always claim to be low mileage and well maintained, and certainly, some of them probably are. I wouldn't buy one without getting the results of a compression test done on it. And the problem with a JDM engine (other than it possibly being high mileage and/or poorly maintained, despite what the importer says) is that it doesn't have new HG's either, it could leave you in the same boat before long.

The 5VZ has a problem shared with many motors - alu heads on an iron block. As the engine warms up, they expand at different rates, and the block and head scoot against each other, with the HG in between being scrubbed every heat cycle. Over time, this wears out. More related to the number of cold starts than the miles.

Toyota went through 4 (or 5?) design iterations on the HG's through the 3rd gen time frame. Starting with a largely conventional style (fiber stuff with steel rings around the chambers) that is very prone to failure with enough heat cycles. Then they did some hybrid styles, with increasingly larger steel areas covering more of the conventional fiber parts. And eventually ending up with a complete steel 'MLS' style gasket, coupled with a different finish on the head and block. That is pretty immune to being worn by the head and block scooting against each other.

So if your engine is in pretty good shape aside from a HG, and you put the latest style gasket on, you'll be good for a long time. If you get a low miles/well maintained JDM engine with one of the earlier HG styles on it from the factory, you might be back in the same situation again at some point.

Yes, thanks for bringing up the compression test. Any shop worth trusting will not even sell you the motor without showing you the compression. I inspected this motor in person before it was delivered and it was wet 220 PSI across all cylinders - which in that case the mileage claim didn't even matter as it was as good as new. They let me leave a mark with a paint pen on the engine block that only I knew where it was to confirm upon delivery that was the same engine that I had inspected. If any used engine shop were to object to any of that be suspicious of their intentions.

JDM - Japanese Domestic Market. These normally come out of a Toyota Hiace van made for Japan, mine did. That's why so much has to be swapped over as it's a 5VZ-FE long block but all the accessories are wrong.

USDM - United States Domestic Market. Only Tacomas, 4Runners, T100's and some Tundras got the 5VZ-FE and are all pretty much direct swaps between each other, minus a rare few with EGR valves. Very, very hard to find a low mileage USDM and half the time that you do they are lying.

 

[JoeT4R]

[MENTION=139000]phattyduck[/MENTION] [MENTION=115347]gamefreakgc[/MENTION] I was tracking on what the acronym JDM stood for, lol. I just didn’t understand what a JDM engine exactly meant. So I now understand what it means when it’s said to be a “JDM engine.” Thank you for breaking it down for me!

At OP, with this piece of knowledge at hand, I’d say go JDM engine. But I have ZERO experience with them. I would just like the idea of having a super low mileage engine, like less than 100K. That seems pretty sweet to me. Plus I suppose you could hang onto the original engine and make it a project that you work on over a period of time to see if you can tear it down, build it up and learn something new along the way. That’s what I would do.

 

[JoeT4R]

JDM = Japanese Domestic Market. Meaning parts delivered or meant for delivery to Japan.

The "JDM" 5vz's out there are almost all from from vans (HiAce, I believe) instead of Surfs. This means that most of the parts on the outside of the engine (basically everything but the long block) must be changed due to the different mounting and packaging in the different vehicle. At least the engine itself (block, heads, etc.) is the same as the USDM 5VZ engines.

-Charlie

Another thing I’d like to ad is that I think it would be really unique to say you have a JDM 5VZ. Like it doesn’t get any better than that. It’s straight from the motherland. But it also makes you wonder, why would there be all of these engines just lying around? Are they all beat to hell? Like what’s the story behind them?
Sorry if I sound dumb, it has been quite a long day today.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Another thing I’d like to ad is that I think it would be really unique to say you have a JDM 5VZ. Like it doesn’t get any better than that. It’s straight from the motherland. But it also makes you wonder, why would there be all of these engines just lying around? Are they all beat to hell? Like what’s the story behind them?
Sorry if I sound dumb, it has been quite a long day today.

Not a dumb question. Japan isn't a big place, it's just an island chain. Much like cars that live their lives on Hawaii, they just don't rack up all that much in the way of miles, or kilometers in this case. So the car is eventually scrapped but the engine is still worth a lot so they sell them in the US where we pay top dollar for them.

I never thought of saying I have a JDM 4Runner. Usually the supercharger and exhaust notes get the most attention.

 

[JoeT4R]

Not a dumb question. Japan isn't a big place, it's just an island chain. Much like cars that live their lives on Hawaii, they just don't rack up all that much in the way of miles, or kilometers in this case. So the car is eventually scrapped but the engine is still worth a lot so they sell them in the US where we pay top dollar for them.

I never thought of saying I have a JDM 4Runner. Usually the supercharger and exhaust notes get the most attention.

I find it to be really intriguing, the whole JDM thing. I’d be okay with putting one in my rig, God forbid I have to get to that point. My only thing would be that I would want some kind of history on the thing. Or at the very least an oil analysis or something to help me understand the overall health of the engine. But I guess if I were really determined, I could tear that one down and build it back up with all new gaskets and parts and everything else that might entail.

Also I am jealous of the supercharger :naughty:

 

[Endlessblockades]

One reason JDM drivetrain parts generally see far fewer wear-mles is partially a result of the so called Shaken Law - brutal safety inspections to keep the Japanese roads safe. It becomes too expensive to get re-certified every couple of years and many owners scrap their vehicle and buy new in 5 years or less. Here's a quick Google result:

Why Mileage of Cars in Japan is Low - Vol. 146 | Used Cars for Sale | PicknBuy24.com


Just for fun I went on one of the big used engine sites and got a quote....

When I chose Federal Spec the engine was 200 dollars cheaper but has 10K more miles on it than when I selected CA spec.

Here is the link if you want to play around with it. Used Engines For Sale | Preowned engines | Southwest Engines

You have to enter an email address but the quote appears instantly in your browser as well. I got a quote for a transmission from these guys or a site just like it and a week later got an 'offer' to knock a couple hundred off the price. They also accept 'reasonable offers'. No idea if this is a legit path.....shipping the core back to them seems like a bit of a ha$$le.......

 

[Bad Luck]

One reason JDM drivetrain parts generally see far fewer wear-mles is partially a result of the so called Shaken Law - brutal safety inspections to keep the Japanese roads safe. It becomes too expensive to get re-certified every couple of years and many owners scrap their vehicle and buy new in 5 years or less. Here's a quick Google result:

Why Mileage of Cars in Japan is Low - Vol. 146 | Used Cars for Sale | PicknBuy24.com

You beat me to it! I was going to bring up Shaken Law. One unintended side effect of this is a lot of these vehicles were not well maintained since the intention was to only get 5 years to maybe 10 years out of them. I've seen several used JDM engines with sludge buildup so thick it might as well have been cosmoline packed in the engine instead of engine oil. For that reason I am always extra skeptical of JDM engines. There are good JDM engines to be had, but there are a good amount of junk JDM engines and most importers don't or won't inspect them before selling them.

 

[phattyduck]

I have had great luck with JDM engines (other Toyotas, not 5vz's), but the quality is HIGHLY variable. As is the '<50k miles' claim. You can definitely get good ones, but also bad ones.

Here's the top end of a 3S-GE BEAMS engine I got when it was ~20 years old:

The 3S-GTE in my current Camry was similar. So, find a good one and it will likely be the best bet. Find a bad one and you are *not* going to have a good time...

Also, to be clear... the 5VZ's from a JDM vehicle are built in the same factory as the 4Runner engines were. Same quality. There are some (possible) quality differences between Japan built and US built 2UZ's though - so it isn't always apples-to-apples.

-Charlie

 

[CoCoCo4Runner]

You're in for a major headache either way. The prices for anything 5VZ related have skyrocketed. Junkyards want $1500+ for a motor (I've gotten two that both needed valve jobs so I sent them back), JDM engines are a shitshow.

I'm at the point where I just want to part my 1998 out and never look back.

 

[brillo_76]

You're in for a major headache either way. The prices for anything 5VZ related have skyrocketed. Junkyards want $1500+ for a motor (I've gotten two that both needed valve jobs so I sent them back), JDM engines are a shitshow.



I'm at the point where I just want to part my 1998 out and never look back.

They want $1500 plus for engines in your area. Wow.

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[stuckinthemud]

Brillo 76, how much do junkyards charge for engines in your area?

Mike

 

[brillo_76]

Brillo 76, how much do junkyards charge for engines in your area?

Mike

Varies. What's was going on the yards cleaned up. When metal was up they destroyed a pile of them. Several yards got rid of the 3rd gens.

One pick and pull around here is crazy. We never know what the prices are so we stay away from then.

By my one buddy's house they crushed then all.

So I am starting to look around to see if any are around. We do have a few full service garages around here but most of those have nothing.

One is $300 as an example. Mostly not horrible. That would be a pick and pull


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[gamefreakgc]

It's hard to find a running 4x4 SUV for $1500, so I would fix it 10 out of 10 times. Pumping another grand or so into mine as it's transmission time now but sure beats buying another vehicle.

 

[brillo_76]

It's hard to find a running 4x4 SUV for $1500, so I would fix it 10 out of 10 times. Pumping another grand or so into mine as it's transmission time now but sure beats buying another vehicle.

Oh the prices for the 3rd gens went up around here. I used to really get the rotted frame complete trucks reasonable.

Yes. I just pumped 4k into the shitbox but that was total including purchase of the rig.

After they tried to kill the world prices really climbed. So I can't buy the complete trucks for what I used to. Oh well.



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