Re-gear and locker question

[Skrimz]

So i am new to the forum and I am sure this has been asked a 1000 times and I just did not see it in my search. anyway here we go.

A little background on my 4runenr and use:
I have a 98 4runner with a OME suspension lift. I live in COS and my Wife and I try and get up in the mountains as often as we can for some backpacking, camping, etc. we like to hit some off the less used trails. I am looking for some added capability while still using it as a daily driver and for trips cross country to see the family.

I was thinking bigger tires this year, I had the 275/85 in mind. but that big I was thinking about re-gearing. First questions is what are the advantages of re-gearing and is it worth it?

What gears ratio and type would people recommend?

I am guessing I will have to re-gear the front and back, is that correct?


second part
as long as I have the front and rear Diff apart I was thinking, hey why not throw some lockers in, I am looking at the ARB lockers. Is this a sane though or just a waste of time and money?

and what is a realistic estimate for all this fun?

well that's the short of it. I appreciate any feedback, thank you.

 

[Nelsonmd]

So i am new to the forum and I am sure this has been asked a 1000 times and I just did not see it in my search. anyway here we go.

A little background on my 4runenr and use:
I have a 98 4runner with a OME suspension lift. I live in COS and my Wife and I try and get up in the mountains as often as we can for some backpacking, camping, etc. we like to hit some off the less used trails. I am looking for some added capability while still using it as a daily driver and for trips cross country to see the family.

I was thinking bigger tires this year, I had the 275/85 in mind. but that big I was thinking about re-gearing. First questions is what are the advantages of re-gearing and is it worth it?

What gears ratio and type would people recommend?

I am guessing I will have to re-gear the front and back, is that correct?


second part
as long as I have the front and rear Diff apart I was thinking, hey why not throw some lockers in, I am looking at the ARB lockers. Is this a sane though or just a waste of time and money?

and what is a realistic estimate for all this fun?

well that's the short of it. I appreciate any feedback, thank you.

I think you are going overboard with your mods. It sounds like you aren't going to do any hardcore off-roading, just trail driving, but mostly on-road.

If you want to maintain it as a DD, I would recommend sticking with 265/75 tires and stock gearing. If you go to bigger tires and gears, then you are going to lose mpg's, plus they won't be as at home on the roads. I thoguht this was a good quote from Mr. Leary in another thread...

It all boils down to how much money you want to spend. Off roading is kinda like driving fast... "speed is money, how fast do you want to go?"

If you want to have a truck that safely pushes the truck within its stock capabilities, then go with a 2" lift (no body lift), a rear locker, and 265/75/R16 tires with an aggressive tread pattern. This will get you down level 3 trails with ease and you will not have to worry about re-gearing or breaking drivetrain components. This is the route I would recommend... and it is the route I recommend to my customers. It requires far less investment and pushes the truck capability right to the limit of diminishing returns. Pass that level of build and you are getting less and less in terms of additional performance at a rapidly increasing $$$ amount.

To run 33s, there are several modifications that need to be made if you are trying to achieve something other then a mall crawler (i.e. "looks badass"). A re-gear should be considered to reduce strain on the rest of the drivetrain components (without it the RPMs will be a little below the power band at highway speed). Simply putting bigger tires on will not infer traction gains, however more aggressive tires will. 33" tires and you will be much more likely to break stuff... plain and simple... big tires to turn means axles go snap. Likewise, big tires will not prevent you from damaging your drivetrain on obstacles (skid plates and slider will). The body lift that is "required" to run 33s does not give you extra clearance, so the only performance advatage you will have is that extra 0.5" to 0.75" of clearance from the taller tires. When this comes at the penalty of drivetrain vulnerability and gearing that is no longer properly suited to the tire size, its not a win.

Unless you are ready to spend the money to properly prepare the trucks to run 33s, then you are not really netting a performance improvement and its not worth it. 265/75/R16s are a much better size for a mild build.

Your choice, but my advice is to do it right or don't do it at all. Builds with a foot in both camps (33s without additional work) are less capable then either camp.

I have built a 3rd gen 4Runner pretty much as far as possible, and would keep it closer to stock if I could start over.

Your choice, your truck. Best of luck with your build.

Leary

You won't need dual lockers either. A rear would be nice if you don't already have it, but it sounds like you probably won't need it.

Estimate for all you have mentioned, It's gotta be a couple thousand. The marginal benefit you will receive? Well, if you are just doing access trails, and not wheeling for the sake of wheeling, maybe little to none.

I'd say save you money, stick with what you have, maybe throw a rear locker in there if you've got the itch, then spend some of what you've saved on other things for it, like lights, bumpers, stuff like that. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide what you are going to do with it.

BTW, check out the tutorial and reference sticky at the top of the 3rd gen section. There is lots of info there on some of the mods you are talking about.

 

[Skrimz]

thanks for the info. it did help some.
I am also scouring the build threads for info.

its not just access trails I hit although after reading my post it did sound like that. Me and some friends like to go playing around in the mountains here every few months so I am looking to make my runner more capable and tackle a few more difficult trails. A rear Diff locker would have helped several times in some of the areas we like to get into both playing around and trying to get into some remote camping areas.

I defiantly want to do things right and not go half ass.

33 are kind of my goal to reach, don't really want anything bigger.
I know there will be some hit to MPG, I just didn't want to throw 33's on there and stress the drive train and get a sweet 15 MPG, i was told by a few people on the trial that re gearing would help that some, just I did not know how much. so what would it take to do it right? or what would you/anyone suggest?

I was planning a few thousand for this so that is about what i was thinking.

and I guess the other way with starting with a front bumper, sliders etc.. is stuff I want to add, do people find it more beneficial to have that stuff first or???

 

[T4RFool]

where is COS?

 

[Pikeman]

I can say I agree and disagree with the quote from Mr. Leary. I have the 285/75(33") tire on mine and do not run a body lift, yes I rub on occasion but not badly. Also when wheeling with another person on same suspension as me but with the 265/75(32") he drug his differential on an obstacle that I did not taking the same exact line. I know because it was his first trip out and I spotted him in my same tire tracks.

Back to your original question: The regear is the issue, I put 30k+ a year on my truck and will be re-gearing to 4.56 gears. Actually the regear guides tell me that 4.30 should put me back to stock, however all the armor and stuff I am heavier. Tire size is not the only factor to re-gear, additional weight from bumpers and other protection, lift(since you are higher in the air stream= more wind resistance) all affect power and mileage. There is always a debate between 4.56 or 4.88 when going to 33's. I am choosing 4.56 since I put so many miles on my truck, and yes a lot of them off-road too. $wd magazine did a regear article once on a Cherokee. The showed the calcualtions to bring the gearing back to stock for just tire difference. Installed and still got poor mileage. They adjusted the gears one more step up and ended up a little better then stock factory mileage. They mentioned it was the higher wind resistance and additional weight.

Lockers, the ARB or E-locker retrofit is the best option but also the most expensive ones. This is because when you don't need them its like they arent there and truck will handle perform like it does now. Push a switch and instant on locked power. I am currently running an Aussie locker which is similar to the Lock-Rite. Both are drop in full time lockers and take a little getting used to, but both are $300 or less and don't require adjusting your gear lashing.

Cost to regear- you can order preassmebled differentials from ECGS(East Coast Gear Supply) with or without lockers. Front $600 no locker, and rear $575 no locker and Rear with ARB $1400 range. Marlincrawler and Inchworm gear also sell complete 3rd. This will allow you to install yourself sinces gears and everything will be done.


Tacoma 7.5 Reverse Clamshell Assembly
Toyota V6 8''- Pickup, 4runner,FJ Criuser

 

[Skrimz]

Rockrimmond, are you in COS T4RFool?

 

[Pikeman]

I always suggest putting on protection/ armor. Sliders are one of the first pieces, then bumpers and skids. Factory skids will hold you over for a while and will actually be adequate for 95% of the wheelers out there.

COS= Colorado Springs or at least that is what COS stood for on my baggage claim last time I flew in there.

 

[the great him]

well i don't know what you guys are talking about as far as running 33 putting drive train at risk for breaking things and damage ect... i know plenty of guys with 33 and bigger on 4runners and Tacomas and they aren't having troubles. if you go bigger than 35s then yes you will start to see the risk drastically increase for braking axles and CVs. on thing that defiantly will help is dont lock the front, just put a TrueTrac up front, it will allow for the needed slippage so as to not brake things. regearing will help a lot. think about it, you are putting bigger tires on your rig, changing its gearing, you have one of three options, change the tranny gear ratios, change axle gear ratios or put your smaller tires back on. well changing the tranny gearing is a bit +$$$ and time compared to the axles, and you want the bigger tires so why put the smaller ones back on, and sense you are already throwing in a locker you already have the 3rd member out and so you may as well. i would recommend going with 4:88 gears and 285/70 tire or a 295/70 tire if you can find it (it will be a tad wider and scoosh taller, so you will need a lift, 265/70 if no lift). as far as lockers go, i would put an ARB air locker in the rear, and put a Detroit TrueTrac in the front. you will never notice the ARB when its not activated and you will only notice the TrueTrac when its needed(it will feel like you have 2more tires pulling you along) as far as longevity of parts, you wont brake the CVs or drive shafts or rear axles ect. as long as you dont abuse your rig and try and power you way through every obstacle. (mud and snow your probably safe with the powering through ...). but also like some others have said things like armor(bumpers, sliders and skid plates) and a winch would help a lot(a winch will get you out of more stuff than lockers will ever think of)

 

[T4RFool]

yes i am in "COS". im just wondering what trails your hitting up near colorado springs. old stage road? trails off old stage road?

 

[Skrimz]

old stage sometimes, I have not done a lot of exploring off old stage yet but want to. Lots of the unmarked ones off rampart between springs and Denver, as long as they don't keep closing them down like they have.

also Buena Vista area has become a new favorite and planning on doing more exploring around summit valley this summer along with a sand dunes trip...

 

[Mickman91runner]

yes i am in "COS". im just wondering what trails your hitting up near colorado springs. old stage road? trails off old stage road?

I am also in COS
Been looking for a wheeling partner to hit up old stage with me!

 

[T4RFool]

im just trying to get an idea of the trails you will be wanting to ride. i've ridden nearly all the trails up old stage and some up by woodland park and i ride with no locker and im not re geared. i have considered it but i havent needed it yet. the trails near here arent that intense. saran wrap would probably be the most difficult but still doable with open diffs and stock gearing. i've done it lol

 

[brian2sun]

It arguable that an ARB locker in the front is safer than a TrueTrac for breaking CVs. On an ADD diff like we have (as opposed to having manual hubs), whenever you are in in 4x4, the TrueTrac will be working and therefore be putting more resistance on your front drive axles - at all times when you are in any mode of 4x4. An ARB however runs open 99% of the time even when you're in 4x4. So I think of it this way...

When you're on the trails and in 4x4, a TrueTrac will be putting more stress than usual on the front drivetrain 100% of the time. An ARB will put no extra stress on the front drivetrain until you turn it on in those situations that it's actually needed and that is only about 1% of the time (that's about all I need to use it). During that 1% of the time, you will be fully locked up there and put more stress on the CVs for that moment than a TrueTrac, but I had to ask myself which is better - having more risk of breaking CVs whenever I'm in 4x4, or just the few moments here and there when I actually need the extra traction?

You can break CVs with either the ARB or the TrueTrac. But I chose the ARB because I believe if you use the ARB sparingly and really only when it's necessary, you'll put less overall stress on the drivetrain and the ARB provides even more traction for those sticky situations becuase it will still turn both tires when one is off the ground (and that happens all the time).

EDIT: As far as gears go, having 4.88s and a heavily loaded down truck, I would not spend the money to regear to 4.56s. To each their own, but I know with absolute certainty, that I would have been very disappointed with the performance gain for the money that it costs with 4.56s. With my extra weight, I know for a fact I'm still below the stock power ratio even with 4.88s. I can feel it on my "butt dyno", and that's more reliable info than the internet charts gave me. I pull 2600 rpms at 70 mph (and actually that's more like 75 mph since my speedo is not calibrated) so my freeway rms are still well within the acceptable range. Point is, if I would do it all over again, with extra weight and 33s, I would go 5.29s no doubt in my mind. 5 speeds are different also, 4.65s would be acceptable IMO on a heavy 5 speed with 33s.

 

[Mr. Leary]

A locker is like an easy button. Especially in Colorado, the rear locker will give you much more bang for your buck, since most of the times you will engage it will be during steep hill climbs.

If you are looking to increase tire size, add front and rear lockers, and re-gear at the same time... it will be expensive.

You will be looking at around $1400-$1600 per axle with gears and an ARB locker (ECG). The air compressor and certain other modifications and regular maintenance stuff you should do while the truck is down and everything is pulled apart will bring this cost up to around $3500. All told from stock to built, the average investment will be around $9k-$10k.

 

[Skrimz]

I have a 5 speed,I don't think I mentioned that, so I am not sure how that will affect my gear choices if at all.

I don't have the extra weight obviously right now, but any mods I do I want to plan on the final product so I am not having to do things twice if possible.

 

[Mr. Leary]

The choice for a 5 speed is between 4.56 (stock-ish weight and larger tires) and 4.88 (extra weight). 5.29s are a little too much for a 5 speed.

 

[the great him]

It arguable that an ARB locker in the front is safer than a TrueTrac for breaking CVs. On an ADD diff like we have (as opposed to having manual hubs), whenever you are in in 4x4, the TrueTrac will be working and therefore be putting more resistance on your front drive axles - at all times when you are in any mode of 4x4. An ARB however runs open 99% of the time even when you're in 4x4. So I think of it this way...

When you're on the trails and in 4x4, a TrueTrac will be putting more stress than usual on the front drivetrain 100% of the time. An ARB will put no extra stress on the front drivetrain until you turn it on in those situations that it's actually needed and that is only about 1% of the time (that's about all I need to use it). During that 1% of the time, you will be fully locked up there and put more stress on the CVs for that moment than a TrueTrac, but I had to ask myself which is better - having more risk of breaking CVs whenever I'm in 4x4, or just the few moments here and there when I actually need the extra traction?

You can break CVs with either the ARB or the TrueTrac. But I chose the ARB because I believe if you use the ARB sparingly and really only when it's necessary, you'll put less overall stress on the drivetrain and the ARB provides even more traction for those sticky situations becuase it will still turn both tires when one is off the ground (and that happens all the time).

EDIT: As far as gears go, having 4.88s and a heavily loaded down truck, I would not spend the money to regear to 4.56s. To each their own, but I know with absolute certainty, that I would have been very disappointed with the performance gain for the money that it costs with 4.56s. With my extra weight, I know for a fact I'm still below the stock power ratio even with 4.88s. I can feel it on my "butt dyno", and that's more reliable info than the internet charts gave me. I pull 2600 rpms at 70 mph (and actually that's more like 75 mph since my speedo is not calibrated) so my freeway rms are still well within the acceptable range. Point is, if I would do it all over again, with extra weight and 33s, I would go 5.29s no doubt in my mind. 5 speeds are different also, 4.65s would be acceptable IMO on a heavy 5 speed with 33s.

i have never broken an axle with a truetrac, and ive never heard of anyone having this happen. a guy i used to wheel all time with when i lived in CA has an 04 taco with a supercharger and truetrac up front(Elocker rear) and he drives the piss out of it(4 lift with 33s and 488 gears) he has never broken a CV. the truetrac will not add that much "resistance" to break stuff, its a limited slip(all be it an aggressive one) but it will not "bind up" your front drive train enough to brake stuff, unless you are just abusing things and being stupid and then you would probably end up braking a CV anyways. yes the ARB up front would be selectable and give you a fully locked front end, but its also another $400-500 over a truetrac. the added benefit the truetrac will give you in the snow and ice and just normal trail driving will be night and day, which you wont get with the ARB unless you lock it up and risk braking things.

 

[Mr. Leary]

I just wish Eaton made an e-locker for the 7.5" diff. LSD when its not engaged, full locker when its not. :moping:

... Jeeps get 'em... why... not... us... :violin:

 

[J-money$$$]

The choice for a 5 speed is between 4.56 (stock-ish weight and larger tires) and 4.88 (extra weight). 5.29s are a little too much for a 5 speed.

I would completely disagree with that. and after owning a 5spd and wheeling with people who have yotas on 5.29's its really the only good option

 

[Mr. Leary]

I would completely disagree with that. and after owning a 5spd and wheeling with people who have yotas on 5.29's its really the only good option

Running 33s with a 5 speed on the highway sounds like a formula for sloooow. Now on the trails, I'm sure that setup would rock... who needs lockers when you have tractor gears!