Really frustrated with snow traction...
- Thread starter mattb2003
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klennop
New member
Studded tires on anything makes it hook up whether it be a car, bike, 4 wheeler, snowmobile, etc. Can you run studded tires on the roads where you are?
Ever have any experience with chains on or off road??
Athabasca
New member
Only used chains back in New Zealand when 4WD were too expensive.
We can run studs here all year here in the Yukon and I think thats true for anywhere north of 60 latitude as well as Saskatchewan. Ill switch to Mud terrains when we get consistent temps above freezing.
At -40C regular all season tires have good grip on packed snow its when it warms up that they lose alot of grip.
Jerrydog
New member
LOL I'm sure it can. Ive had over 300lbs in the trunk of my old civic, most tongue weights are at that or over, two full grown adult men in the back seat can be 400+ Its more than ment to carry 300lbs of sand in the back.
I agree and I thought the same exact thing. I've been in much deeper snow without any such issues, so I figured it was as combination of his tires and his inexperience with ATRAC that was causing his problems. The fact that he said he floored the gas pedal just supports that idea. It doesn't make sense to floor the gas at all in that situation, stuck or not. All I can say is that my 4Runner wouldn't get stuck in that situation, that much I know for sure.
With ATRAC enabled, the vehicle will brake one wheel so that some torque gets transferred to the wheel on the other side. If traction is available, ATRAC will find it. If not, you're right that it will just continue to spin the wheels from side to side. So far, so good.
Here is where you're confused--- With ATRAC disabled, there is nothing to transfer torque from one side to the other. So when you hope to spin your wheels, ONLY the tire with no traction will get any torque. The wheel on the other side will get no torque at all. That's how open differentials operate. And without ATRAC enabled, we effectively have open differentials in both the front axle and rear axle. So at best you are making your 4Runner a two wheel drive vehicle--one front and one rear wheel powering the vehicle. Doesn't make any sense.
klennop
New member
Doc you obviously don't read the entire posts and you keep going back to this.
And you obviously don't understand that turning off ATRAC means you'll be spinning just one wheel on each axle when you're trying to get through deep snow.
Read up on open differentials and get back to me.
klennop
New member
Doc, again, you seem to put words in my mouth or assume I don't know how this system works. Is is because I said this? "just like mashing the throttle with everything off but slower...." I never said anything that doesn't support what you are saying above. I KNOW WHAT THE SYSTEM DOES, and I understand how 4 wheel drive systems work. I know what happens when I shut everything off and press the gas. You just have a hard time interpreting things or just want to hear only what you want to hear?? Again, I showed you how it works in my situation with open difs and wheel spin in my video vs using ATRAC.
It is like you are trying to put me in my place by spouting off information, instead of just grasping how I showed you that something works different than how it is supposed to according to a book or manual. You haven't told me anything I don't already know.
Okay, than lets just leave it at that. You have problems in snow and I don't...and we have the same vehicle. No need to continue the discussion if it all boils down to that.
klennop
New member
I am fine with that.
chaz
New member
im not trying to start or continue a debate, just want to get it right for my own knowledge, but after reading so much on the atrac today heres what ive come to , please feel free to correct me if im wrong, 1) there is no way to turn off atrac unless u have an 09 TE with the button or go over 3k rpm, VSC OFF SWITCH on 08 4R - Page 2 - Toyota 120 Platforms Forum 2) it remains on when diff is locked but vsc is off, 3) if u do the vsc mod, it turns vsc & trac off but leaves atrac on, so having it done may have helped in that video, http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...rs-more/41357-vsc-off-atrac-mod-complete.html 4) it is more or less the vsc combined with trac that can sometimes lead to getting stuck snow, etc. & danger when merging into highway traffic sometimes when their snow covered, so again the off mod would help with that. 5) atrac gets even more aggressive when in 4lo. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/28533-traction-control-system-4th-generation.html
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IOP25
New member
Wow- I have seen some hardheaded people on message boards but damn Doc. Might want to read up on winter tires. "Snow tires aren't designed to clear snow out of them. And there's good reason for that. Snow tires RETAIN snow in their tread by design." So if their tread is designed to hold snow, what's the advantage of having winter tires vs all seasons? Tough to bite into snow when the thread is full of snow.
Q: What makes snow tires different from regular tires?
A: Snow tires (also known as winter tires) have tread patterns specifically designed to dig down and bite into snow and ice
I have the VSC mod b/c it blows so anyone wondering if it's worth it? Yes. I also had a 2000 Limited supercharged- 275/75/16 with OME and it was unstoppable in snow. CO mountain snow. Drive over Vail Pass when they close 70 b/c of snow if you want to test your tires.
Q: What makes snow tires different from regular tires?
A: Snow tires (also known as winter tires) have tread patterns specifically designed to dig down and bite into snow and ice
I have the VSC mod b/c it blows so anyone wondering if it's worth it? Yes. I also had a 2000 Limited supercharged- 275/75/16 with OME and it was unstoppable in snow. CO mountain snow. Drive over Vail Pass when they close 70 b/c of snow if you want to test your tires.
Educate yourself:
Winter tires stick better to the snow - Winter Tires vs. All-Seasons - autoevolution
The Snow Tire FAQ Forums - I'm a snow tire newbie. Proper use of snow tires?
"...Snow sticks to itself very well. A good snow tire can use this concept to our advantage. The idea is to have a tire that holds some snow in the voids, but still self cleans a little bit. The snow that stays stuck in the voids and sipes will help the tire stick to the snow on the ground."
cgriffin1999
New member
This has been an interesting discussion. I have no experience with snow tires myself and don't know anything about them.
I followed the first link that DocMT provided above, read the article (Winter Tires vs. All-Seasons - autoevolution), and did not see anything in the article that specifically says snow tires are supposed to keep snow in their treads. Maybe I'm missing it, though.
I then followed the second link and saw that line that DocMT quoted from a forum post. But then I did a little more reading on that same site and found things like the following:
"Deep, heavy snow is much like mud. It requires a tire with large tread blocks and good size openings. The tire must be able to dig in yet not get clogged at low speeds. If the tire can not expel the snow, it will start making itself into a snow ball."
and
"Lighter snow – often found when the weather turns really cold, and there are no salt trucks – allows a different tread design. The snow tires designed for high speed driving in the snow are often designed for lighter snow. The tread blocks are closer, smaller, often cut with sipes (little grooves). Because the tread design relies on centrifugal force to throw snow out of the tread, these tires often do not work well at low speeds."
Both of these quotes are found on this page:
The Snow Tire FAQ Forums - Snow Tire FAQ Main Page
So I still don't understand. Are snow tires supposed to fill up and get clogged with snow? Or are they supposed to clear out the snow from the treads using centrifugal force?
I followed the first link that DocMT provided above, read the article (Winter Tires vs. All-Seasons - autoevolution), and did not see anything in the article that specifically says snow tires are supposed to keep snow in their treads. Maybe I'm missing it, though.
I then followed the second link and saw that line that DocMT quoted from a forum post. But then I did a little more reading on that same site and found things like the following:
"Deep, heavy snow is much like mud. It requires a tire with large tread blocks and good size openings. The tire must be able to dig in yet not get clogged at low speeds. If the tire can not expel the snow, it will start making itself into a snow ball."
and
"Lighter snow – often found when the weather turns really cold, and there are no salt trucks – allows a different tread design. The snow tires designed for high speed driving in the snow are often designed for lighter snow. The tread blocks are closer, smaller, often cut with sipes (little grooves). Because the tread design relies on centrifugal force to throw snow out of the tread, these tires often do not work well at low speeds."
Both of these quotes are found on this page:
The Snow Tire FAQ Forums - Snow Tire FAQ Main Page
So I still don't understand. Are snow tires supposed to fill up and get clogged with snow? Or are they supposed to clear out the snow from the treads using centrifugal force?
A little of both. One of the links says that some snow should be retained in the tread so that it can "stick" better to the snow on the ground. But at the same time you don't want all of the tread completely filled with snow. At least that's the way I read it.
In my own experiences, large voids like you see on mud tires are not good in snow at all. That kind of tread is great at clearning itself, which is not preferential for snow, although it's great for mud.
Look at modern snow tires versus old school snow tires. The modern snow tires are all very tight tread blocks with small voids and plenty of siping. The old school snow tires looked more like today's mud tires, with large and deep tread blocks and big voids. There's a good reason why modern snow tires changed over the years.
klennop
New member
I am not going to get deep into this one because I know you can't win against Doc so I am not even going to try to sway him.
However I will just point out a couple things.
1. The articles posted are comparing a winter/snow tire to a all season tire, not an all terrain tire.
2. The info on one is from a forum, you can take that info with a grain of salt because it is a forum where anyone can say anything, much like this one.
3. I personally think the modern winter/snow tires are made for on road performance, no where is there any mention about how well they work off the road in deep snow.
4. If all terrain tires are so bad in the snow how come many of them have the severe snow rating(Mountain Snowflake) on them? Even Tire Rack says about the new law in Quebec:
" Alternate tires not bearing the mountain/snowflake symbol which have one or more of the following terms branded in their tire name or tire size are temporarily acceptable: Alaska, Arctic, A/T or AT Blizzard, Ice, LT, Nordic, Snow (but not mud and snow), Stud, Ultratraction or Winter."
You guys can argue this one out. I can tell you from my experiences that snow filling up the grooves in my cross terrain tires doesn't help me get around, it just acts like a slick in the deep stuff. In the sloppy packy snow it will cake around the tire almost like when you are trying to make a snowman. So I will take an aggressive A/T tire any day when I am off the road in the snow.
However I will just point out a couple things.
1. The articles posted are comparing a winter/snow tire to a all season tire, not an all terrain tire.
2. The info on one is from a forum, you can take that info with a grain of salt because it is a forum where anyone can say anything, much like this one.
3. I personally think the modern winter/snow tires are made for on road performance, no where is there any mention about how well they work off the road in deep snow.
4. If all terrain tires are so bad in the snow how come many of them have the severe snow rating(Mountain Snowflake) on them? Even Tire Rack says about the new law in Quebec:
" Alternate tires not bearing the mountain/snowflake symbol which have one or more of the following terms branded in their tire name or tire size are temporarily acceptable: Alaska, Arctic, A/T or AT Blizzard, Ice, LT, Nordic, Snow (but not mud and snow), Stud, Ultratraction or Winter."
You guys can argue this one out. I can tell you from my experiences that snow filling up the grooves in my cross terrain tires doesn't help me get around, it just acts like a slick in the deep stuff. In the sloppy packy snow it will cake around the tire almost like when you are trying to make a snowman. So I will take an aggressive A/T tire any day when I am off the road in the snow.
Baba Booey
New member
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire. My understanding is that ATRAC works best when you try to walk it through slick conditions at ~2000 RPM. Anything more than that, and the ATRAC cannot continue to brake the wheel without traction, and it loses its ability to stop the wheel without traction from spinning. It becomes overpowered by torque. Once the ATRAC hold is broken, the wheel will spin, and the VSC may kick in and kill power. I would suggest gradually finding the ATRAC "sweet spot" before judging how well it does/doesn't work. The "sweet spot" would be the highest RPMs possible without overpowering the ATRAC and activating the power-killing VSC.
Also, I believe later model 4Runners use ATRAC II+, which is programmed to be more aggressive when the vehicle is put into 4Lo. In other words, the ATRAC will apply more braking power to a spinning wheel in 4Lo than it will at other times. Is this correct? If so, the ATRAC II+ will act even more like a locker when in 4Lo, although I'm not saying it is anywhere near the equivalent of a true locker.
I have absolutely no complaints running my 4Runner in snow for the past 5 years.
Also, I believe later model 4Runners use ATRAC II+, which is programmed to be more aggressive when the vehicle is put into 4Lo. In other words, the ATRAC will apply more braking power to a spinning wheel in 4Lo than it will at other times. Is this correct? If so, the ATRAC II+ will act even more like a locker when in 4Lo, although I'm not saying it is anywhere near the equivalent of a true locker.
I have absolutely no complaints running my 4Runner in snow for the past 5 years.
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I agree. In certain situations, it seems that the throttle can "overtake" (for lack of a better word) ATRAC. I just very my throttle application and keep it smooth, all while maintaining momentum. That always works for me.
