Rear axle seals, bearings, and brakes

[NegroTundra]

So after a long 1,200 mile trip I got home and noticed the driver side rear wheel was wet. Knew right away what it was and was not surprised, as my axle seals are original with 230k miles. Been crazy busy with work and 2 kids under 2, so decided to hire this one out. Took it down to my local and trusted mechanic and they call back saying brakes are totally screwed on driver side due to immersion in gear oil, and bearing is on its way out too. They advised new axle seals on both sides, in addition to both bearings and new brakes. I said what the hell, go for it, I didn't want to screw with it in future. All said and done, $710 out the door.

I must have grown used to the bearing noise, because the vehicle is much quieter going down the highway now. Anyhow, just thought I'd share my experience if anyone is wondering how much it costs to hire this one out (i'm hoping I didn't get ripped, but to me it seems a fair deal given the labor with bearings etc.)

Thanks for reading!

 

[TheDurk]

So after a long 1,200 mile trip I got home and noticed the driver side rear wheel was wet. Knew right away what it was and was not surprised, as my axle seals are original with 230k miles. Been crazy busy with work and 2 kids under 2, so decided to hire this one out. Took it down to my local and trusted mechanic and they call back saying brakes are totally screwed on driver side due to immersion in gear oil, and bearing is on its way out too. They advised new axle seals on both sides, in addition to both bearings and new brakes. I said what the hell, go for it, I didn't want to screw with it in future. All said and done, $710 out the door.

I must have grown used to the bearing noise, because the vehicle is much quieter going down the highway now. Anyhow, just thought I'd share my experience if anyone is wondering how much it costs to hire this one out (i'm hoping I didn't get ripped, but to me it seems a fair deal given the labor with bearings etc.)

Thanks for reading!

It would be helpful to break that into labor and parts to give better feedback.

 

[mtbtim]

That would be an awesome price for the California Bay Area. My local dealer charges around $1500 for the same job.

 

[Arnezie]

Not a bad price at all. Now do the rear diff breather mod so it doesn’t happen again.


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[nissanh]

Select OEM bearings, else expect to replace those wheel bearings in less than 100K miles.
Oil seals got to be OEM. Other brands will deform during the installation and won't last long. Bad thing about installing aftermarket parts in the rear axle is when it leaks again, you'll have to buy another set of rear brake shoes. I go with OEM and that is again $60-70.

 

[gamefreakgc]

So after a long 1,200 mile trip I got home and noticed the driver side rear wheel was wet. Knew right away what it was and was not surprised, as my axle seals are original with 230k miles. Been crazy busy with work and 2 kids under 2, so decided to hire this one out. Took it down to my local and trusted mechanic and they call back saying brakes are totally screwed on driver side due to immersion in gear oil, and bearing is on its way out too. They advised new axle seals on both sides, in addition to both bearings and new brakes. I said what the hell, go for it, I didn't want to screw with it in future. All said and done, $710 out the door.

I must have grown used to the bearing noise, because the vehicle is much quieter going down the highway now. Anyhow, just thought I'd share my experience if anyone is wondering how much it costs to hire this one out (i'm hoping I didn't get ripped, but to me it seems a fair deal given the labor with bearings etc.)

Thanks for reading!

That was a good price for what it is. I had a rear axle seal done by a shop on my 91, was just north of $1000. Doing it yourself is much cheaper obviously, and it's not very hard. You just need a machine shop to press the bearings on/off. So when the other side blows (trust me, it will) try giving it a shot. It's literally just 5 bolts and a couple of nuts and the whole axle comes right out.

 

[Wedgy]

It's pretty straight forward if you have the press and the jig/puller. My local shop wanted $1,200 to do the job, I said no way as I only paid $1,500 including tax/fees for the truck. Watch Timmy Tools video !!

 

[NegroTundra]

It would be helpful to break that into labor and parts to give better feedback.

That was $350 labor and $325 parts + tax. All toyota OEM except brake pads and wheel cylinders.

 

[TheDurk]

That was $350 labor and $325 parts + tax. All toyota OEM except brake pads and wheel cylinders.

Yep. Definitely a good price.

 

[nevada]

That was a good price for what it is. I had a rear axle seal done by a shop on my 91, was just north of $1000. Doing it yourself is much cheaper obviously, and it's not very hard. You just need a machine shop to press the bearings on/off. So when the other side blows (trust me, it will) try giving it a shot. It's literally just 5 bolts and a couple of nuts and the whole axle comes right out.

he got both sides done.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

That was $350 labor and $325 parts + tax. All toyota OEM except brake pads and wheel cylinders.

Wheel cylinders? Probably unnecessary. Really good price though assuming he used OEM parts and actually did it right. Very easy to mess this job up.

 

[Drcoffee]

As the boards leading expert in rear axle seals I'm going to now throw cold water on your excitment, you need to pop out the ABS sensors and look inside the cavity. No doubt the mechanic missed the mark and the seals are leaking already. I promise you its already failed. :rip:

Read this: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/114743-possible-solution-leaking-axle-seals.html

 

[mtbtim]

As the boards leading expert in rear axle seals I'm going to now throw cold water on your excitment, you need to pop out the ABS sensors and look inside the cavity. No doubt the mechanic missed the mark and the seals are leaking already. I promise you its already failed. :rip:

Read this: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/114743-possible-solution-leaking-axle-seals.html

I tend to agree with you. This has got to be the #1 repair dealerships, independent shops, machine shops and DIYers screw up. Let's hope the mechanic the OP used is an exception to the rule and actually knows what he's doing when it comes to this repair.

Now, as to your self-proclaimed status as the board's leading expert on this repair, I don't know. You were the one that came up with the inner retainer flip technique which I do agree is genius. But, I'm a student of your method and I've now done 8 axle seal jobs at my home in San Jose. And, [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I have made a video showing people how to complete the entire job on their own provided they are willing to buy the necessary tools. Who knows, maybe [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I are the leading experts for this repair on this forum I'm just kidding around though and if you want to claim you're the authority on this repair, go right ahead. I won't challenge you for your self-proclaimed status.

 

[Drcoffee]

I tend to agree with you. This has got to be the #1 repair dealerships, independent shops, machine shops and DIYers screw up. Let's hope the mechanic the OP used is an exception to the rule and actually knows what he's doing when it comes to this repair.

Now, as to your self-proclaimed status as the board's leading expert on this repair, I don't know. You were the one that came up with the inner retainer flip technique which I do agree is genius. But, I'm a student of your method and I've now done 8 axle seal jobs at my home in San Jose. And, [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I have made a video showing people how to complete the entire job on their own provided they are willing to buy the necessary tools. Who knows, maybe [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I are the leading experts for this repair on this forum I'm just kidding around though and if you want to claim you're the authority on this repair, go right ahead. I won't challenge you for your self-proclaimed status.

Tim, After 20 years of 3rd gen T4R leaking seals with no solution until ME, sorry I hold the title of resident expert. Like bigfish, Doing 8 jobs makes you a better mechanic using my procedure. It does not elevate you to genius. :boxer:

 

[mtbtim]

Tim, After 20 years of 3rd gen T4R leaking seals with no solution until ME, sorry I hold the title of resident expert. Like bigfish, Doing 8 jobs makes you a better mechanic using my procedure. It does not elevate you to genius. :boxer:

I'm not denying your fix was genius and has helped a ton of people including me. There's just a lot more to this repair than pulling the axles and trusting a shop to get the press work right. I think knowing how to do the job A to Z on your own and understanding all the little nuances of the repair make you an expert.

And since we're on the subject, I reckon the videos Sean and I made for this repair may as well live in this thread too. Somebody you mentioned loves that fact I post our videos all over the place so I figured I wouldn't fail them by not posting here as well.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AVhSDnw2ugo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IJkVEBYSecs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Riceye]

Tim, After 20 years of 3rd gen T4R leaking seals with no solution until ME, sorry I hold the title of resident expert. Like bigfish, Doing 8 jobs makes you a better mechanic using my procedure. It does not elevate you to genius. :boxer:

 

[DK327]

I tend to agree with you. This has got to be the #1 repair dealerships, independent shops, machine shops and DIYers screw up. Let's hope the mechanic the OP used is an exception to the rule and actually knows what he's doing when it comes to this repair.

If the independent shop consists of former Toyota master techs that insist on following the FSM when performing this job, and do it correctly, using OEM everything, would it be safe to assume the seals will still hold, unflipped?

I'm asking because I recently found a local shop here in Omaha that is just that, two former Toyota master techs that opened up their own repair shop and only work on Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Since I have 250K on the clock, I'm guessing sooner or later I'm gonna have to take 'er in for this repair...

Tim, they also have an Instagram page and on one of their pictures showing them doing a rear axle seal job on a 3rd gen, I actually saw you commented on that picture, informing them that flipping the retainer was the permanent fix but they responded back with saying they would use the FSM and had been for 15 years with no issues, and measure and check everything yada yada...

How do you feel about that? All their work is guaranteed for 1 year or 12K miles whichever comes 1st and I actually have an appt in a couple of weeks for timing belt/water pump, valve cover gaskets, and replacing the front diff seal that's leaking. I know I could have done all this by myself using your videos as a guide but don't want to deal with it honestly, plus I'm having them check everything else... Thanks!

http://www.toyotechsinc.com/

That's the link to the shop I'm talking about.

 

[Scramble]

:director:

 

[mtbtim]

If the independent shop consists of former Toyota master techs that insist on following the FSM when performing this job, and do it correctly, using OEM everything, would it be safe to assume the seals will still hold, unflipped?

I'm asking because I recently found a local shop here in Omaha that is just that, two former Toyota master techs that opened up their own repair shop and only work on Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Since I have 250K on the clock, I'm guessing sooner or later I'm gonna have to take 'er in for this repair...

Tim, they also have an Instagram page and on one of their pictures showing them doing a rear axle seal job on a 3rd gen, I actually saw you commented on that picture, informing them that flipping the retainer was the permanent fix but they responded back with saying they would use the FSM and had been for 15 years with no issues, and measure and check everything yada yada...

How do you feel about that? All their work is guaranteed for 1 year or 12K miles whichever comes 1st and I actually have an appt in a couple of weeks for timing belt/water pump, valve cover gaskets, and replacing the front diff seal that's leaking. I know I could have done all this by myself using your videos as a guide but don't want to deal with it honestly, plus I'm having them check everything else... Thanks!

Toyota and Lexus Repair Specialists Omaha, Nebraska

That's the link to the shop I'm talking about.

I think the job can hold up with the inner retainer in the original orientation (bevel facing the seal) but they do need to readjust the inner retainer position more inboard for a better mating of the retainer with the seal. Now, how far inboard you can move it without the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing is the question and why [MENTION=78997]Drcoffee[/MENTION] came up with the flip fix. I don't know how much you can adjust it before you risk rubbing. That's why the Dr Coffee method is great because you can leave the retainer in the OEM spot, 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer, and still have the seal lip riding dead center on the 10mm polished shoulder of the retainer. The new axle seal design puts the seal lip 2mm more inboard. When you flip the retainer, you gain that 2mm back because the bevel is 2mm wide and you no longer have to push past that bevel first to get up onto the polished shoulder.

Sean [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] runs our Instagram page and he must have commented on those guys' page. Ideally, you want the seal lip riding as close to dead center on that polished shoulder so you have plenty of room for axle play especially as the bearing wears over time. For these mechanics, if they're getting the seal lip near the non-polished bevel, it will hold up for a while until enough bearing play allows the seal lip to sometimes hit the bevel and then the seal will start to fail. Most people don't know they can pull the ABS sensors and look into the axle housing and then turn the axle while watching the ABS tone ring. The tone ring acts like a water wheel and will lap up any gear oil accumulated in this area. If it is leaking, it can stay undetected for quite some time because it's not until the oil gets into the brakes causing uneven braking or they see the tell-tale splay of oil on the inside of their rear wheels that they realize they have a leaking rear axle seal. So, these mechanics might have done a ton of rear axle seal jobs that are going to fail prematurely. It's my opinion that this repair should last you around 200k or more if done right. As long as these guys did the grease test and have confirmed they have a good mating of the seal with the inner retainer, then their jobs should hold up. If they are blindly following measurements from the FSM and not performing the grease test, I would wager that many of their repairs have already failed but the customers don't know it yet.

Their guarantee won't mean much because their botched job will probably hold up for that year or 12k miles before the leak rears it's ugly head and the customer is stuck paying for another axle seal job.

What you need to ask these guys is how they confirm the proper placement of the inner retainer. Do they just do measurements or do they perform the grease test or something like it. I've heard one guy likes using a sharpie mark on the retainer instead of smearing grease. Where the seal has wiped away the sharpie mark is the spot the seal is riding. Measurements don't mean shit. They need to confirm the placement with some type of grease test. I've grease tested every axle I've worked on even though I know 5mm of polished axle showing above the retainer with the retainer flipped has worked 100% of the time for me. I still like to see the confirmation with the grease test and also show the person I'm helping exactly where the seal lip is riding so they know the job was done right.

What are these guys going to charge you for all that work? That sounds very expensive. I know in the California Bay Area, that would be over $1000 in labor for sure. Probably $1500.

 

[I_bRAD]

Measurements don't mean shit. They need to confirm the placement with some type of grease test.

Not true. When I did my seals I did the grease test to be sure but I placed my retainer based on the measurements I took, and it was bang on first try based on my calculations.

I didn't have the correct equipment to measure per the FSM, but if you measure from a datum like the flange, not just the edge of the machined area, then you can be sure of correct placement as long as you remember to compensate for the 2mm difference in the seal design.

The old design required a lead in for assembly. Hence the chamfer on the retainer. On the new design, the chamfer is not required as the seal has the lead in instead. Smart move on Toyota's part because they don't have the added cost of the chamfer on the retaining ring. Dumb move that they didn't seem to tell anyone about it.

For the minimal extra effort and peace of mind, I do think it's worth it to do the test though. Grease test also confirms that the seal is in straight, which might not be caught depending how you measure.