Recall skeptic

[4RunnerFan]

I have yet to receive a recall notice on our '08 4Runner V6 4WD Limited, but guessing it will arrive sometime in April.

Despite reports from Toyota insisting the sudden unintended acceleration issue is not caused by electronics, I remain skeptical. All it takes is a quick look at the Department of Transportation's Office of Defect Investigation website (Search for a Complaint | Safercar.gov | NHTSA). I found a number of records where owners of 2008 4Runners reported SUA. Here's an example (sorry for the caps, but that's how it is on the database):

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Make : TOYOTA Model : 4RUNNER Year : 2008
Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION
Crash : Yes Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 10315022 Number of Deaths: 0
Date of Failure: January 1, 2010
VIN : JTEBT14R08K...
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL
Summary:
I WAS IN THE SMOKY MOUNTAINS IN DEC 2009-JAN 2010 WHERE THE TEMPERATURES WERE VERY LOW AND THE VEHICLE WAS OUTDOORS. TEMPS WERE MID 20S IN THE DAY TIME AND MID TEENS AT NIGHT. NO ICING WAS AN ISSUE. I WAS DRIVING MY 2008 TOYOTA 4-RUNNER INTO A PARKING SPACE SLOWLY AROUND 2 PM GETTING READY TO APPLY THE BRAKES. BEFORE I COULD DO SO THE VEHICLE TOOK OFF. I IMMEDIATELY SLAMMED ON THE BRAKES AND THE VEHICLE DID STOP, HOWEVER IT HAD TRAVELED APPROX 10 FT BEFORE I COULD DO SO AND IT SLAMMED INTO A TREE. I OWNED A NEW 2003 4-RUNNER AND NEVER HAD THIS HAPPEN. I BOUGHT THIS VEHICLE IN JAN 2008 NEW. THIS IS THE ONLY TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED. THIS CRASH RESULTED IN $1768.35 IN DAMAGE. I TOOK THE VEHICLE TO A TOYOTA DEALER AND THEY REMOVED MY ALL WEATHER MATS. (I INSPECTED THESE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ACCIDENT AND THEY WERE IN PLACE AS THEY SHOULD BE LOCKED DOWN) TOYOTA SET UP AN APPOINTMENT AND LOOKED AT THE VEHICLE AT THE DEALERSHIP AND SENT A LETTER THAT STATED "NO SYSTEM FAILURE WAS FOUND IN EITHER THE BRAKING SYSTEM OR THE ACCELERATOR SYSTEM" THEY FURTHER STATED THAT "THE FACT YOUR VEHICLE IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE CURRENT SAFETY SERVICE CAMPAIGN INVOLVING FLOOR MATS/UNINTENDED ACCELERATION WOULD INDICATE THAT THIS INCIDENT WAS NOT THE RESULT OF THIS ISSUE." ??? IF NOT WHAT IS THE ISSUE..CRUISE CONTROL COMPUTER ? THE DEALERSHIP STATED THAT THE ONLY VEHICLES AFFECTED WERE MADE IN THE USA AND MY VEHICLE WAS MADE IN JAPAN, THEREFORE IT WAS NOT HAVING A PROBLEM. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT TIME AND I GO OFF A CLIFF. WE NEED SOME ANSWERS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I SPENT ALOT OF MONEY ON THIS VEHICLE AND I AM NOT SURE IT IS SAFE AND IF I SELL IT I STAND TO LOSE ENOUGH MONEY TO KEEP ME FROM BUYING A VEHICLE OF EQUAL VALUE. WE NEED TO PUT OUR FOOT DOWN AND MAKE THEM SOLVE THIS. THANK YOU NHTSA.
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Our 4Runner has the official rubber all-weather floor mats from Toyota. The original fabric mats are in a storage closet downstairs. The driver side mat on both sets has two holes that fit over securing pins in the floor, so they aren't going to move. And besides, there's a full 2 1/2 inches of space between the bottom of the accelerator pedal and the top of the all-weather mat. If the mat did move forward, there's certainly enough room for it to slide under the pedal.

Toyota says they aren't including the software update to disconnect the accelerator function when the brake pedal is applied in this recall campaign. That makes perfect sense. To say otherwise could be construed an admission that there really is something wrong with their electronics.

So, I wonder if they are really just trying to get our 4Runners into dealer service departments so they can indeed install that computer update... and keep the whole thing hush, hush.

 

[BlairB]

So, I wonder if they are really just trying to get our 4Runners into dealer service departments so they can indeed install that computer update... and keep the whole thing hush, hush.

Do you think they could keep every single tech at the 1,200+ independently owned dealers quiet about doing some hush hush recall work? I do not think it is possible, not to mention it would be an insane thing to do. Some service departments even have cameras showing their service department so customers waiting for their vehicles can watch what is being done on their car.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I realize you may just throw my opinion out the windows since I work at a Dealership, but let me tell you my two cents on the matter.

The way that Toyota and for that matter all manufactuerer's set up their throttle by wire systems is ridiculously complex. For example, Toyota uses 2 seperate potentiometers in the pedal assembly to measure 0-5V from when pedal is free to fully depressed and 0-5V for when pedal is depressed to free. Not to mention a throttle position sensor. There is also no Toyota vehicle that can over-power the hydraulic brake system even if the engine is running, (possible exception being a Supra or LFA), MotorTrend did a test where they took a GT500 'stang ran it to 100+ and slammed the brakes while throttling it and the vehicle stopped. If Ford can do it, Toyota damn well did it before hand.

The mechanical explaination for Toyota's pedals makes more sense than an electrical one, the reality is that Toyota does not use a different system than anyone else really. Audi actually had this issue with their vehicles in the early 90's if you remember. I've seen a couple actual pedals that have mechanically seized and stuck when actuated and I've seen hundreds of pedals that were perfectly fine.

Some food for thought, the DOT finished a 10 month long investigation on Toyota vehicles and found no electrical issues with the system.

I am very sorry to come off as a jerk, but hearing this stuff for the past year or so has irked me because the larger majority of the people going with the flow as it were have no actual idea of how the system works and what they are accusing of failing. I decided to make automotive technology my career and I would hope that in the years and copious amounts of money used for training and certification that I have learned a thing or two about how a modern OBD II CAN Vehicle operates.

 

[Jerrydog]

Its been plain to me that this has almost always been driver error and not a problem with toyota. After a few stuck pedels on floor mats and a few " I was pushing the brake not the throttle" when they were actually standing on the throttle, made the papers it turned into a truth by media scenario and everyone wanted on the money train.

One more thought, if this was an actual ghost in teh machine elctronic issue it would make sense that the testing agency would have been able to reproduce it just once on the thousands of cars examined.......they never did.

 

[jwyshrek]

But...as things get more sophisticated and complex, the greater probability something could go wrong.

Also, more and more aircraft type technology is being ported over to automobiles...and even that technology isn't perfect.

Business | Dive! 747 In Unexplained Incident -- Canada Investigating Automatic Pilot Controls After Near-Supersonic Scare | Seattle Times Newspaper

One of my engineering professors told us stories about 747's 'falling out of the sky' on autopilot but a definite explanation was never (at that time) found...this is when chaos theory was popular.

Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Toyota electronics, BUT most people, including service techs, only see the system at a macro level. Sometimes you see problems at the micro level (chip logic) that are just unexplainable and/or unrepeatable.

I worked at AMD (formally ATI) testing GPUs (Graphic Processing Units) for nearly 10 years...sometimes a particular GPU with 'flake' out and do something unexpected. But it would only do it once and only once...as far as we could test it. We would just log it and move on...of course, GPUs aren't included in any 'critical' systems. (Your XBOX is not a critical system.)

It would be interesting to know the details of the government testing...to see what and how it was tested...

 

[4RunnerFan]

Do you think they could keep every single tech at the 1,200+ independently owned dealers quiet about doing some hush hush recall work? I do not think it is possible, not to mention it would be an insane thing to do. Some service departments even have cameras showing their service department so customers waiting for their vehicles can watch what is being done on their car.

True. But a skeptic might wonder if the recall procedures for the technicians include a "reflash of XYZ computer component" without mentioning what it was really for.

I just looked at my floormats and accelerator pedal again. The gap between the two is huge. Sorry, but this recall just doesn't make sense. "Please turn off all electronic devices and leave them off until the aircraft has come to a complete stop at the gate" seems more plausible.

 

[Jerrydog]

So with all eyes on this, toyota and federal and thousands of techs and thousands of cars, why has there not been on case verified by a Federal or toyota investigator?

I even read a case where a woman claimed her car accelerated on its own, toyota checked its fine, she gets it back and it does it again, toyota checks it its fine, she claims it happens again, a toyota tech drives it for a week, nothing....things like that have to be operator error.

The guy on the California freeway that was filmed and chased by police, the computer showed he had his foot on the accelerator and the brake the entire time....forgive me but that guy like many other are just plain liars looking for a paycheck.

 

[jwyshrek]

Well, in Toyota's case, I do believe it was mostly user error. I'm guessing that most of the people in lawsuits are in Cali...the lawsuit capital of the world...remember the hot coffee at McDonalds incident?

I'm just saying that you can not rule anything out. Experience has shown me that there are no absolutes or definites.

A long time ago, when logic circuits had large (relatively) transistors and only a 100 or 1000 logic gates, you could pretty much always predict the behavior of the logic...either 1 or 0.

But now with transistors being smaller than the wires being used to connect them and with billions of transistors and low voltage levels...things are not so clear cut. Now it is either 1, 0 or 'what the hell was that?' (metastability).

Just because it quacks like a duck, sounds like a duck...could be some fat guy with a duck call behind the bush...


As far as nothing being found by the government...well, again, I would like to know how the testing was done and what was looked at...

 

[Zulu95]

I remember the first of these SUA things with Audi. From memory NOBODY in any testing service could ever get an Audi to perform as had been claimed. The was especially true after Audi changed the braking system but still the claims came in. My take on all of this is that one or two people make a mistake (foot on accelerator instead of brake) and an incident occurs. In today's world of "no personal responsibility" and "somebody has to pay" and the fact there is a lawyer hiding behind every tree lawsuits are filed. These lead to other lawsuits from some who see a quick buck in the making and, like a snowball rolling down hill, the situation grows exponentially.
Somewhere in there you will find a few more accidental brake/accelerator mixups which only add strength to the argument that something is wrong.
As news outlets only glorify the worst of situations it gets plastered all over the headlines.
How many times do you think they would report "I put my foot on the accelerator and pressed as hard as I could but the vehicle would not go at all" situations?

 

[4RunnerFan]

How many times do you think they would report "I put my foot on the accelerator and pressed as hard as I could but the vehicle would not go at all" situations?

Here's something close:

Make : TOYOTA Model : 4RUNNER Year : 2008
Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION *
Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0
ODI ID Number : 10314577 Number of Deaths: 0
Date of Failure: January 28, 2010
VIN : JTEZU14R08K... *
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL:ACCELERATOR PEDAL
Summary:
INCIDENT THAT TOOK PLACE ON JANUARY 28, 2010. I OWN A 2008 TOYOTA FOUR RUNNER SR5 WITH 13 K MILES, I AM THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND NO ONE HAS DRIVEN THE VEHICLE BUT ME. VEHICLE PURCHASED AT LEGACY TOYOTA. STOPPED AT A TRAFFIC LIGHT; WHEN THE LIGHT CHANGED, I PLACED PRESSURE TO THE ACCELERATOR TO DRIVE OFF. NOTHING HAPPENED! EXCEPT A SLIGHT FORWARD MOVE! AGAIN I APPLIED PRESSURE TO THE ACCELERATOR! NOTHING HAPPENED! BY THIS TIME I HAD ROLLED INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION. NOW FOR THE THIRD TIME! AGAIN APPLIED PRESSURE TO THE ACCELERATOR AND AFTER A MOMENT THE ENGINE REVVED UP AND BEGAN TO MOVE THE VEHICLE RAPIDLY FORWARD. I RELEASED THE PRESSURE ON THE ACCELERATOR AND BRIEFLY TOUCHED THE BRAKE, WHEN ALL SEEMED TO RETURN TO NORMAL, FEBRUARY 1, 2010 REPORT THE INCIDENT AS IT OCCURRED TO LEGACY TOYOTA. DEALER REACTED WITH NO CONCERNS. *TR UPDATED IVOQ 03/1/6/11

Check to Request Research. Submit below.

 

[Zulu95]

4RunnerFan: This is service related request but no banner headlines in the press about it!:lmao::lmao: