Recharging A/C with R-12

[clunker]

After a local mechanic told me that recharging my A/C would cost a minimum of $300 (if they didn't find anything wrong), I decided to explore other options. The 4Runner is a 1992 when they still used R-12 (freon), and the shop would have to perform a conversion in order to recharge with R134a. This is more expensive and is harder on the system that wasn't designed to run at such high pressures and temperatures. Even worse, R134a is only about 75% as efficient as R-12, so it will not get as cold.

Here is the question. Does anyone have experience with recharging these things? I found some R-12 that I can buy after I obtain my EPA license, but I don't want to waste the time and money and then find out later that I had a major leak. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[crazy gringo]

unfortunately R-12 is a thing of the passed in the repair world , but some toyota dealers still do R-12 and can recharge your system. at least they do at my dealership

 

[mikesmith140]

Just do the 135a. I recharged my '86 T4R and it works fine. It'll never blow arctic cold like a newer vehicle, but it still provides cold air and it's significantly cheaper than going to a shop. I think the can was $30-45, I not sure. If this leaks out and your system just won't blow cold air, then you can go to the shop and pay $300. Although, if you still have the R12 stuff you'll also have to buy a conversion kit at their mark-up price PLUS pay their labor to install the conversion kit.

 

[Infamous82]

Go to your local auto parts store and look for some Freeze12, that should do the trick. Not quite as good as the original but would keep you from converting or spending a ton on r-12

 

[clunker]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have decided against R134a and almost everything else. Freeze12 is a blend of 2 refrigerants, and is 80% R134a. There are several blends that could work, and all of them contain at least 59% R134a and require a license to purchase. No mechanic will recharge your system once you have introduced any blend because they have no way to legally dispose of it, and none of them perform as well as R12.

I can get an EPA license for about $30 after I pass a quiz, and 12-oz. cans of R12 are about $42 plus shipping. As long as I don't have any leaks, it's a no-brainer, but what happens if I have leaks? Does anyone know of any tests I can run before making a commitment?

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

You'll need to have a charged system to check for leaks, there's no way around that unless you buy an a/c vacuum machine and see if it will hold vacuum on the system overnight. Having said that, when you turn the a/c on, does your compressor clutch lock up? If it does, you may have enough in the system now to put some dye in and check for leaks.

If you don't have enough freon in there, the clutch will not lock up because of the low pressure switch, and I would NOT bypass the switch to do any testing! You will fry the compressor if you do!

Its obvious that you have a leak somewhere, otherwise you would not need to recharge it. The a/c system is a completely sealed system and normally holds pressure for many years without servicing or recharging. My system was charged back around '07 I believe, when I broke a hose from wheelin'. It still blows cold air today and works like new.

Now, you may have a slow leak, and for that kind of money you're quoting for R12 (plus the license), if it holds pressure for 1 or 2 years, then I'd say not to worry about it and just keep recharging the system with R12. However, if it doesn't hold pressure longer than at least a year, get it charged, put the dye in, check for the leak and repair it. Chances are its the o-rings at the pipes going into the condenser or at the compressor, that's what usually fails first on a/c systems.

Also remember, if your system is opened up, you WILL need to replace the dryer (small little canister next to the condenser.

Remember, you'll need to get the a/c gauge cluster to charge the system also (and Harbor Freight's unit is junk! Don't ask me how I know), and you'll need to check to see if whatever unit you buy works with the R12 canisters.

If your system was working well before it quit on you, you shouldn't worry too much about 134A not getting cold enough. Generally speaking, R12 will be anywhere between 32º and 38º, and R134A in that same vehicle should be between 34º and 42º.

Hard call here, I personally like having R12 in my system, but I've used 134A in other cars with great success, I think the determining factor for me would be whether there's a leak that depletes the system in under a year. If it does, I'd just go ahead and throw 134A in with a little stop leak in it and call it good. If it lasts over a year, then throw the R12 in and be happy.

 

[KidVermicious]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have decided against R134a and almost everything else. Freeze12 is a blend of 2 refrigerants, and is 80% R134a. There are several blends that could work, and all of them contain at least 59% R134a and require a license to purchase. No mechanic will recharge your system once you have introduced any blend because they have no way to legally dispose of it, and none of them perform as well as R12.

I can get an EPA license for about $30 after I pass a quiz, and 12-oz. cans of R12 are about $42 plus shipping. As long as I don't have any leaks, it's a no-brainer, but what happens if I have leaks? Does anyone know of any tests I can run before making a commitment?

Do you mind sharing where you're getting R12? I've had about every AC shop in town tell me you can't get it anymore. If it's just a matter of getting a license, I'd think they'd jump on that...

 

[clunker]

Flyin, thanks for the great information. The previous owner told me that the system needed a recharge when I bought the 4Runner, and it was like that when he bought it. The clutch does not engage, but I put a tire pressure gauge on the service port without the engine running and it was still holding 5 PSI. Something is still in there.

Based on what you've told me, I'm thinking I might just put in the dye and just enough cheap R134a until the clutch engages. If there's a good chance that the system needs repair, I might as well find the leak at the lowest expense possible.

Kid, I was trying to find out more information about a refrigerant blend called FRIGC FR-12, and customer service responded immediately. They only carry FR-12 in 30-lb. tanks, but they still have some old R12. I can't find their contact info, but a google search only turns up one or two websites that promote FRIGC FR-12, so it should not be very hard to find

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

Here's a link to a good amount of info for FR-12:

http://www.heco.net/frigcflyer.pdf

I'm still trying to determine whether its truly an "R-12" or an alternative product, as it can be used in an R-134 system without complete evacuation.

Something's strange here, I dunno if I really believe its an R-12 product, and I don't think its an R-134 product either, but maybe some sort of mixture?

I also don't care much for the specs they show of the temps. Its being stated that at lower temps, this stuff doesn't cool as well, but at higher temps it is better than R-134. That would worry me.

Anyways, good luck and keep us posted on how it goes with your system and what you end up using. It'll be good info for the group for future reference!

 

[heatwave]

Had to register to post this, Just finished charging m y 89 4r, using difluroethane as a r-12 substitute, using a side tap and 60% of an r-12 charge. Installed new drier, expansion valve, have vent temp of 40 degrees at speed, about 50 degrees while sitting in traffic.

follow this link over to rx7 forum, they do a good job of explaining it allA/C Charging with Easy Cheap Safe Alternative Refrigerant - Page 5 - RX7Club.com

 

[clunker]

FR-12 does not contain any r-12. It is a blend with the lowest level of R134a I could find (59%) that also did not contain R-22. This link has some decent information on some of the alternative refrigerants.

Alternative Refrigerants

I was talking with a guy at the local parts store, and he has about 10 lbs. of R-12 that he's willing to sell me for $60 after I get my EPA certification. Since I'm getting such a great deal on the refrigerant, I might spend a little cash and time replacing/repairing parts that typically leak. It probably has some leaks, and I would hate to waste a bunch of R-12.

 

[wjmj]

If you just want to test the pressure holding of the system, nitrogen works good and if it leaks out no one cares. Make sure you have a good regulator for the tank and it is set very low.

 

[Kapeket]

So many kits to detect, repair and recharge that it makes better sense to pay the few dollars more to get that kit.

 

[sdb999]

If you want to stay with r1, do so. It is a complete myth that it is illegal, not available or outrageously expensive. Know that all the diagnostics are the same r12/r134a. You have to know what's wrong and repair responsibly. Have the old refrigerant evacuated and recycled, repair, confirm with vacuum recharge. I've just restored an 87' with r12. 14oz of r12 was $20 compared to $13-$21 for r134. Check eBay for r12, plenty available and no need for epa license, just do us all a favor and don't be an idiot about it.