Roll Overs and Roll Cages

[Bumbo]

There is currently a 3rd gen thread where the driver and passenger was seriously injured in a roll over type accident. It got me thinking, a situation like this could present itself off-road when driving aggressively, especially in the sand or the dunes if I was to “catch an edge”. It got me thinking a bit more about safety because his injuries were pretty significant.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/268674-sad-but-thankful-news.html

I don’t actually want to go out and spend the money on this… but at what point would you actually want to roll cage the cabin of the 4Runner? I see the KOH build, and as awesome at it is, it’s pretty aggressive, looks very inconvenient, and looks very expensive, but so does a hospital bill or a disability.

I know you can’t really put a price on safety stuff like this, and I am not really fast tracking it though the desert at 70-80 mph on a regular basis. Its not a race truck to me, but that doesn’t mean an accident can’t happen either. How durable are these things in a low speed roll over? I’ve done some slightly sketchy things off-road, it’s fun to push the truck, but the consequences seems pretty bad if you go upside down.

 

[4RunnerMexico]

The 3rd Gen 4runners have really bad rollover ratings.
The 4th gen fairs much better in this aspect. The NTHSA data is on the internet if you want to look it up, but overall the 4th gen is a very safe truck.

 

[AuSeeker]

There is currently a 3rd gen thread where the driver and passenger was seriously injured in a roll over type accident. It got me thinking, a situation like this could present itself off-road when driving aggressively, especially in the sand or the dunes if I was to “catch an edge”. It got me thinking a bit more about safety because his injuries were pretty significant.

Sad ....but Thankful News

I don’t actually want to go out and spend the money on this… but at what point would you actually want to roll cage the cabin of the 4Runner? I see the KOH build, and as awesome at it is, it’s pretty aggressive, looks very inconvenient, and looks very expensive, but so does a hospital bill or a disability.

I know you can’t really put a price on safety stuff like this, and I am not really fast tracking it though the desert at 70-80 mph on a regular basis. Its not a race truck to me, but that doesn’t mean an accident can’t happen either. How durable are these things in a low speed roll over? I’ve done some slightly sketchy things off-road, it’s fun to push the truck, but the consequences seems pretty bad if you go upside down.

I just read that topic....WOW both of them are very lucky to be alive.

I'm not so sure a roll bar would of help them much in that roll over at speed, sure it would have kept the front of the roof at the windshield from be smashed in as badly as it was, but the rest of the roof seems to have held up rather well, IMHO, the fact he had a sunroof may have made the damage worst..but if he didn't have that sunroof both could have been hurt worst or even killed after reading how they both ended up in the aftermath.

Only you can decide if you think a roll bar is a good thing for you to do since you know where, how and the conditions you drive your T4R, if you think you will get as much damage as he did in a roll over it maybe a good idea.

 

[MAST4R]

Since you are thinking of going into the dedicated desert rig route, I agree, safety should be the first concern and expense.

A lot of the rock-crawling cage protection is for, well, crawling speed events where the only bigger issue would be driving on the edge while negotiating a big obstacle, like Moab rim.

But, yeah, at speed...it can happen anytime. You can always lose a tire for example. After all, you will probably be running an aired down LT tire at good speeds. Constantly overheating the sidewalls will eventually cause a catastrophic failure unless you are really into all aspects of it and/or replacing tires regularly like a team would.

So, I guess it is a question of just how far into that sport you want to get.

To me, the commitment and financial threshold between family recreation and sport is like stepping into a different dimension in a sci fi movie. Do it wrong/cheap and you may never come back....

 

[Inv4drZm]

I'm wanting a basic cage in mine. The KOH 4runner's cage, while perfect for racing, is super inconvenient for street driving like you said.

I would like mine built so it has minimal visibility and access impairment for the front row and back row seating. A rear shock hoop can be tied into it as well along with a relocated fuel tank system after potentially chopping and raising the cargo floor for more capacity. All of this should stiffen the frame quite a bit too. I bet racing seats would be stronger and support you better than stock seats, that might be a place to start safety-wise before welding the cage. Could do a safety harness too.

That would give me a lot of piece of mind when moving to 37's or 40's. And if I do roll it I can just chop the roof off and go full-on jeep mode. Only sort of kidding with that one.
[MENTION=306890]MAST4R[/MENTION] funny you should mention Moab Rim. The off-camber sections we negotiated have certainly kept me up at night. The stuff nightmares are made of haha. The only way I would do that trail again is with 37's, lockers, and some sort of long travel front/rear. It wouldn't be fun otherwise.

 

[Bumbo]

Since you are thinking of going into the dedicated desert rig route, I agree, safety should be the first concern and expense.

A lot of the rock-crawling cage protection is for, well, crawling speed events where the only bigger issue would be driving on the edge while negotiating a big obstacle, like Moab rim.

But, yeah, at speed...it can happen anytime. You can always lose a tire for example. After all, you will probably be running an aired down LT tire at good speeds. Constantly overheating the sidewalls will eventually cause a catastrophic failure unless you are really into all aspects of it and/or replacing tires regularly like a team would.

So, I guess it is a question of just how far into that sport you want to get.

To me, the commitment and financial threshold between family recreation and sport is like stepping into a different dimension in a sci fi movie. Do it wrong/cheap and you may never come back....

It’s been my dedicated off-road toy for the past few years actually… and I’ve been pretty good with it so far in terms of making it work for me. I just haven’t gone nuts at throwing big cash at it, yet. If I take suspension to that long travel level, it’s only going to allow me to go faster and get more adventurous, and with that comes more opportunity for accidents.

I’ve been in the sport but tried to settle down a bit… but all my desert stuff started with ATVs, rode those things for many years… but I got older and I don’t bend a well as I used to. I eventually sold it because I had a good run with it without killing myself even though I did get into a couple accidents which was more my fault as a novice rider.

4Runner compared to an ATV for cruising around is actually a very luxurious thing to have considering we stay clean, have air conditioning, and it actually takes us places we like and drives well.

I agree with you… the problem is the cost to do things right if I take it to that next level… it’s also getting to the dollar cost where I can start looking at a side-by-side like the Yamaha YXZ or Maverick X3 XRS which was design to do those things. I really can’t have both from a storage standpoint, and I would really miss the ability to drive the thing on road, and I hate towing a trailer.

Even when I had an ATV, I just drive it into the truck and took it there. Wife drove the 4Runner. Old photo... Look how low the 4Runner is haha.

I guess if I want to do it right, I have to address the saftey side before I can really play.

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=130999]Inv4drZm[/MENTION]

Seats and harness isn't a bad idea... I like you cage ideas but I still want enough bar to provide a proper structural integrity vs a roll bar.

I should just call this project "Sandbird" and move forward.

Really becomes a commitment at this stage for me... can't really half bake this thing.

 

[08TxRunner]

Downside of even a simple 4 point is that, being a 4 door, you're going to have to have down bars obscuring rear seat entry - even if you go swing outs for the front seats.

 

[Ed_C]

A cage in a street vehicle,not a good idea. Unless you plan on wearing a helmet and maybe even a HANS device.

 

[Troymclure]

[MENTION=130999]Inv4drZm[/MENTION]

Seats and harness isn't a bad idea... I like you cage ideas but I still want enough bar to provide a proper structural integrity vs a roll bar.

I should just call this project "Sandbird" and move forward.

Really becomes a commitment at this stage for me... can't really half bake this thing.

Seats and harnesses without a roll cage and hans device is a bad idea. The three point factory belt is designed to allow your body to move inwards and down in the event of a roll over, preventing the collapsed roof from crushing your head and neck. And similarly, without a hans device/helmet strap while wearing a harness, you can subject your body to serious whiplash. Here's a thread that goes over some of the problems with running harnesses:
Are 4 Point harnesses safer for normal driving - NASIOC

In short, you should either fully commit to high speed safety in the event of a roll over and get a cage, seats, harness and hans device, or just don't push it so hard you think you need it.

 

[Bumbo]

A cage in a street vehicle,not a good idea. Unless you plan on wearing a helmet and maybe even a HANS device.

I’ve never owned a vehicle with a cage, I am still learning about all the finer points.

While I don’t daily drive the thing, I still drive it on road to my destinations so I guess your concerns are still no different because it has to be used on the road. I can understand not wanting to hit your head on the bars, but is that still a concern when strapped in with a 4 or 5 point harness?

Wearing a helmet and HANS device isn’t the most practical thing for how I want to use the truck… certainly looks safe and I understand why we use them, but it’s taking this thing into a direction where it’s even more extreme that my original plans.

I’m not necessarily objecting to it, but it would look funny driving down the highway with a helmet in a 4Runner.

 

[Bumbo]

Seats and harnesses without a roll cage and hans device is a bad idea. The three point factory belt is designed to allow your body to move inwards and down in the event of a roll over, preventing the collapsed roof from crushing your head and neck. And similarly, without a hans device/helmet strap while wearing a harness, you can subject your body to serious whiplash. Here's a thread that goes over some of the problems with running harnesses:
Are 4 Point harnesses safer for normal driving - NASIOC

In short, you should either fully commit to high speed safety in the event of a roll over and get a cage, seats, harness and hans device, or just don't push it so hard you think you need it.

Thanks for that... there really is no middle ground for doing this right. Good information.

edit:

Your comments also got me thinking about how my friend operates this side x side... Its got a 5 point, we wear helmets, but no HANS device... I guess even then we are still leaving ourselves open to injury if the accident or roll was bad enough.

 

[Troymclure]

Thanks for that... there really is no middle ground for doing this right. Good information.

edit:

Your comments also got me thinking about how my friend operates this side x side... Its got a 5 point, we wear helmets, but no HANS device... I guess even then we are still leaving ourselves open to injury if the accident or roll was bad enough.

Happy to help. I was ready to pull the trigger on new seats and 4 point harnesses before reading that. Decided to get new seats, but keep the stock belts.
As for side by sides, I think there is some difference. For one, you have a full cage, preventing the roof from collapsing. But also, they do not have airbags or much crumple zone, which work hand in hand with stock seatbelts in a car/truck. In a UTV, containment and keeping your body in the vehicle is most likely a higher priority, thus 5 points are not a bad idea. Probably would be a good idea to wear a neck protector like for a dirt bike, or get a helmet strap to prevent your head from whipping to far forward for even more safety.

 

[Wes77]

Almost went for a cage, kinda glad i didnt

 

[WhiteBoomer04]

Here's my recommendation - speak to people who build and use roll cages and get their opinions. While not discounting the views of forum members who may or may not have worthy advice, see what people in the business say about your considerations. You mention the KOH build. Reach out to them, or their builder of the cage (Otwell) - they are all great people and have solid knowledge of what may or may not work for YOU. Then post back their thoughts. :snacker:

 

[Troymclure]

Here's my recommendation - speak to people who build and use roll cages and get their opinions. While not discounting the views of forum members who may or may not have worthy advice, see what people in the business say about your considerations. You mention the KOH build. Reach out to them, or their builder of the cage (Otwell) - they are all great people and have solid knowledge of what may or may not work for YOU. Then post back their thoughts. :snacker:

Agreed. There is definitely a benefit to a cage in terms of safety in high speed crashes. The only downside for a street driven vehicle that I know about is lower speed safety in a crash. Less crumple zones and a more rigid vehicle with cage is no doubt safer if you roll at 80+ mph, but in a rollover around 40 mph, you can sustain more injuries from the stiffer body/chassis. With that said, only the OP can determine if their use would justify a cage, and the resulting trade offs that accompany it.

 

[Bumbo]

Here's my recommendation - speak to people who build and use roll cages and get their opinions. While not discounting the views of forum members who may or may not have worthy advice, see what people in the business say about your considerations. You mention the KOH build. Reach out to them, or their builder of the cage (Otwell) - they are all great people and have solid knowledge of what may or may not work for YOU. Then post back their thoughts. :snacker:

Thanks for this post, and I did call Otwell after you mentioned it.

Interesting conversation... basically we talking about cost as a financial limitation will often times be a stopping point, some options and logistics between internal vs external cage, tube bumpers front and rear… I need to put together some requirements and design goals before really getting into this.

He did a good job with helping me manage expectations with a project like this… basically if I wanted something to help protect from a roof collapse in a low speed roll, the requirements would obviously be a lot different than something that would need to pass inspection or certification for a certain type of race.

Considering I’ve toyed with the idea of an external cage before, and the fact that it does cost less from a fabrication standpoint, I would consider doing something like this just to add a little extra protection. The next real question is whether or not it is in my budget.

He also didn’t have any particularly negative to say about doing this on a street vehicle… but I do agree and understand some of the concerns about crumple zone and rigidity.

 

[BlairB]

Definitely want to echo what has been mentioned about never running a real cage (versus a simple roll bar in back) while not wearing a helmet.

If you roll a caged vehicle without a helmet that can very quickly turn into a fatal accident when you may have walked away without a scratch in a completely stock vehicle. Steel tube obviously has zero give and hitting your head on that during a roll over (or getting t-boned etc...) is not something you ever want.

Also, many (most?) injuries in roll-overs are not actually caused by roof deformation, but rather your head being in contact with the roof when the roof hits pavement. Think similar to diving into a shallow pool.

A cage is part of a safety system, and if you do it you should finish the system. That means helmet, full harness, race seat etc...

 

[Bumbo]

Yes, I see that now. The keyword being “system”… you can’t really have one without the others. Without a seat and harness to keep you in place, solid metal bars all over the inside of the cab isn’t helping.

The idea of an exo-cage has really been growing on me… at least for a low speed roll or in an event where I was just to lay it on its side crawling. I could possibly maintain a regular interior, and provide some added protection from a roof collapse. Even minimize body damage, just have someone winch me back upright and off you go.

At least for how I envision myself using the truck, seems like a good middle ground because a properly done internal cage / system doesn’t really match my use case for this thing.

Any concerns or comments with a properly built exo from someone like Ottwell?

I don’t know how crazy I would go, but Otwell did make the comment, Considering the application / users desired use case, if it’s not something they would consider to be save, they would most likely decline even building the thing.

Some photos off google images for visual examples...

 

[duffdog]

Definitely want to echo what has been mentioned about never running a real cage (versus a simple roll bar in back) while not wearing a helmet.

If you roll a caged vehicle without a helmet that can very quickly turn into a fatal accident when you may have walked away without a scratch in a completely stock vehicle. Steel tube obviously has zero give and hitting your head on that during a roll over (or getting t-boned etc...) is not something you ever want.

Also, many (most?) injuries in roll-overs are not actually caused by roof deformation, but rather your head being in contact with the roof when the roof hits pavement. Think similar to diving into a shallow pool.

A cage is part of a safety system, and if you do it you should finish the system. That means helmet, full harness, race seat etc...

Agreed. Hitting your head on a bar during a rollover may be a guaranteed fatal event. On the 4th gen, an even MORE fatal idea would be an internal cage that can be displaced by the airbag system. Imagine that instead of an airbag cushioning your head, one of the bars gets damaged in the rollover and then pierces your head when the airbag accelerates it directly at you. Imagine the scene in Final Destination where the airbag causes the girls head to fly at the broken end of a pipe.

It is my opinion that NO internal cage of ANY TYPE should be used where there are airbags nearby. Internal cages with airbags is possibly the worst idea I have ever read on the internet.