short lived fun

[mspa]

short lived fun on high mileage V6

I thought I'd just vent a little.

A few weeks ago I bought a high mileage 4runner. I thought it was in good condition. The V6 looked clean and drove nicely.

Early this week, I had to take in to get the two rear coolant lines replaced. I got home two days later after that was fixed and the radiator sprung a leak at a rusty spot I anticipated this would happen.

Today I took in to get the radiator fixed, and in the process of doing some pressure tests, it was discovered the head gasket is failing.

The truck has 287k miles and the engine was rebuilt a little over 70k miles ago.

This sucks!

I don't have the ability, or equipment to put a new engine in, and so the prices I'm getting for a remanufactured engine installed range from $4200 - 4500, not including the need for a new radiator, hoses, cap, and I might as well get the power steering pump replaced.

I don't think anything else will need replacing, but we all know what can happen once you "get in there".

Any advice?

I don't have "extra" money, and so it's either sell off stuff like music instruments to raise funds to do this, or just sell the thing. I paid $2800. After paying taxes, registration, etc, and other smaller fixes, I'm already into it about $3500, which is all I had to start with.

I'm spent.

 

[the_dingman]

I would either find someone who'll replace the head gasket cheap, or do it yourself. Don't drive it until you can fix it, but you're only looking at $40 for a head gasket, and either a few hours of work, or maybe $100-200 if you can find someone who knows engines that needs some extra cash.

I've got a running 22RE from an '88 with 130k sitting in my parts truck in Rockford, IL that I don't need... You can buy the engine cheap if you want it

 

[fourwd1]

Tough call, you just have to decide.

 

[mspa]

Thanks Dingman and fourwd1 . . . I won't be driving it at all, unless I decide to take somewhere for the rebuild, and depending how far that might be. I have a friend who's a mechanic that could help me with the gasket, but my concern is what else might have to be done once we commit to that process and I don't know that he has room to keep my truck until it can get done. Also, I don't want to get into it and discover that just doing a new engine would have been a better use of $$$$.

As for the offer on the 22RE, there's a few remanufactured once I've found locally in super condition for about $1300, but since I had planned on towing a tent trailer, I wanted the power of the V6. I know the 22RE's last longer, but at this point, if I'm putting a "new" engine in, I would hope longevity wouldn't really come into play, if it can last another 100k miles at least . . . I willingly admit, I don't know enough about engines to really know for sure, as evidenced by what happened in this case.

 

[gotmud?13]

mspa, i feel your pain buddy. as for the engine, i have been doing a LOT of research as to what engine would damn near make our runners wheelie, and be VERY simple to put in. the engine to look for is a 5MGE. they come off usually mk2 (82 ish)supras, or 86ish cressidas. the other engine you could go with, i s a 7MGE, bu would not suggest it. it is roughly the same power, but is crazy hard to install. also, on the 7MGE the head gaskets are always failing. if you were serious into racing, ie drag, street or sand dunes, go with the 2JZ engine. you may remember it as the engine in the orange supra on the fast and the furious. the 5MGE and the 7MGE are v-6, and are boasting with hp and torque. depending on what tranny you have, a tranny replacement from the donor supra or cressida is warranted. the stock w58(some 4runners and 85ish supras) and r154 (92ish supra turbo) will be a good pair. a good place to get performance parts for the 5MGE is rabidchimp.com the 5MGE is too long for the mechanical fan to fit, so 2 10" electical fans are to be placed outside the rad. im not sure if you have ifs, but depending on other factors, like wether you have crossover steering or not, the stock oil pan wont fit-it may, it may not. 7MGE oil pan (rear sump) will work with IFS and crossover steering, and will bolt right up. also, the pan out of a cressida (5MGE) with a center sump, will work fine. if you do go with the supra as a donor car, which is the best option, use the stock bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, and maybe tranny if yours isnt big enough. the bellhousing on the supra will bolt right up to the 5MGE and to the stock tranny you have. it would also be appropriate to use the cressida rad, or the supra rad, as they are bigger and will allow for more engine cooling. make sure that when you rip the wiring harness out of the supra to LABEL THEM!!!!!! you will be taking a lot of wires off. a friend of mine took off 8lbs. of un-needed wire. te rear exhaust is an issue, because they come out at oppostie sides, but nothing a little pipe bender and a MIG cant fix. if you are interested in the 5MGE swap, pm me and i will bury you in links on the swap. the 5MGE will make your yota dance.oh, one thing i forgot to mention, , 5MGET referrs to the turbo version, but i would stay away, as for several reasons. the rubo pipes are harder to wedge in, and might require some fab work. they are generally more expensive, and the turbo is no use to slow off roading. if you are inthe sand dunes, and have time and money to put a torbo, or other forced induction theorum in, go for it, but generally, its not worth it. again, anyone wanting more info on the swap, please do not hesitiate to pm me... and good luck man, let us know your plan of action...
Jake Engel

 

[mspa]

Thanks Jake. Something to think about.

My plan for my 4runner was/is simple . . . at least I think it is. I don't plan to do any serious 4-wheelin. It has to be my daily driver, that is ready to handle a snowy mountain for skiing, or pulling a small tent trailer in the summer, and possibly some fun on the side. I doubt I would feel comfortable catching air, or abusive riding off-road without knowing how strong my stock frame and suspension are (being as old as they are) . . . without some aftermarket reinforcement. And that is something way out of my budget, at least for years to come.

My hope when buying this, was to have a fun classic, that I can keep for many, many years to come. So with this in mind, I think I would want the best engine in there that will be first and foremost, reliable. I actually enjoy how the V6 in it feels now. I know there are bound to be other engines that will "feel" bettter or stronger. I have nothing against that. My main concern at this time is "counting the cost" so I can make the right decision.

It sounds like the 5MGE is the best option. I would like to get some links, so I can get an idea of how much that option as opposed to the 3VZE in it now. My way of thinking is that it's probably best to keep the tranny that's in it now.

Also, I do have IFS, which seems all in good order. Since I have to replace the p/s pump and radiator, that may not even be a real concern.

It does bum me to think that Toyota didn't seem able to overcome a bad head gasket design, or whatever aspect that is responsible for the problem these engines have.

Is it a matter of putting the right kind of gasket in to fix the issue, or is it a design flaw between parts? I guess I can't really understand why that is such a problem.

 

[mspa]

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pts/445438344.html

Here's a 3.4 liter V6 out of a '99 4runner that is local. The seller says he removed the flywheel to make sure it will recieve a pilot bearing for a manual transmission, and said it will. It was paired with an automatic.

Any thoughts? He says to make an offer, but without finding other similar offerings for price, I don't know what is reasonable.

Also, I need to find out what it would take to do the modification.

 

[zombie]

I have heard of the 3.4 swap as a popular option. I have also read (not sure where of course) that some people are re-torquing the head bolts in the 3.0 slightly higher than the manual suggests and the head gaskets are not causing any problems. Maybe someone else has heard of this and can offer some links or more specific detailed comments. Good luck with your truck.

 

[mspa]

Hey Zombie,

I appreciate your suggestion. I think I am going to try the head gasket replacement with new head bolts. I am interested in the 3.4 swap, and was thinking of that when I bought this . . . but in my head, I was hoping it would be later when I had the money ready.

So I hope to find out if there is a "best" head gasket to buy, and bolts too. I have hear of ARP bolts, but for all I know most are about the same.

 

[mspa]

Oh, and I still have to replace my radiator and front hoses, and my power steering pump. I've heard that some radiators online are cheaply made and aren't worth buying. Anyone have suggestions of a quality radiator that is affordable?

The shop that was going to replace mine was going to use a $278 radiator (don't know the make).

 

[gotmud?13]

i have found an dattached a few swap sites that i was going ot reference when i was contemplating the swap. if they dont work, sorry i will pm them to you.. but i think i am just going to stick with my 22RE until it dies... you could go with the 7MGE or the 3.4. a good suggestion that i just remembered was one that my dad had in his old tercel, which the fan belt blew, knocking the engine temeratura gauge off, and instead of the rad overflowing, it oxploded out the bottom, and it was driven for about 100 km without anycoolant, and the heads warped like nuts. what he did was get the head remachined and refaced. but he always had head gasket issues from then on. he found that a metal gasket, even though it cost more, helped a bit, and taking a punch and a hammer, indenting the gasket into the head every few inches, resulting in the gasket being "fused"the the head and not being able to move. it almost eliminated the problem. i would be skeptical on that engine on craigs list. if hes a local, and you can go see it, then good, but i wouldnt reccomend shipping. be sure to do a compression check!!!! good luck

 

[mspa]

I appreciate the input from you guys!

I talked to a fellow at a local shop that has done a few head replacements on these V6 engines. He has a supplier that has new heads that "fit" better. If my bottom end is still good, and if it just needs new heads, gaskets, etc. it looks like I can get it done for under $2k. The last truck like mine he did recently, said it was high mileage (over 200k) and it drove like a new engine. But also becuase the bottom end was still good.

He'll have a look at it tomorrow, and I'm hoping this will be an option for me. It's the only semi-affordable option I have that could yield a reliable engine for awhile.

I'll post with an update when I know my next step.

 

[mspa]

Well, I'm glad I took my 4runner to another shop!

You'll see from my last post "we" were thinking head gasket . . . but in fact it's valve covers that are seeping into the clutch and engine. Apparently, the gaskets on the valve covers are shot. I had oil burning fumes seeping into the cab this morning, and it too until eating lunch to get the taste out of my mouth

What was interesting is the mechanic says this is not the original engine, but probably from a parts truck/salvage yard. It appears to be in good condition, but now the "70k miles on rebuilt engine" comes into question. Tomorrow morning they're going to do a compression test to get a better picture of the condition of the engine. If the cylinders check out, we'll proceed. If not . . . .

As of now, we're looking at three areas:

1) fix engine leaks, replace belts (not timing), radiator/hoses, power steering pump/hose, basically get engine/oil/coolant system up to snuff for $1666.

2) fix clutch - put new clutch in, full clutch job for $833.

3) replace timing belt, water pump, thermostat for $686.

OR a all for $2548 (includes tax).

Much cheaper than doing an engine, plus warranty on the work with a lifetime warranty on the radiator, and peace of mind that the timing belt won't go and kill my engine after I invest money to fix the other stuff.

Any thoughts?

I'm just glad to have a 2nd opinion. I was able to see how in half a day, the second shop took more time to pull spark plugs, and look deep enough to determine what the problem was, and break it down into areas of priority in fixing.

I know I could do some of this myself, but it's worth it to me to just get it all done within a week, especially since most of my "free" time is occupied with side jobs to make ends meet . . .

 

[the_dingman]

OR a all for $2548 (includes tax).

I had an entire engine rebuild done for that a few years ago on my '86,. That included boring out the cylinders and replacing the pistons with larger ones (one of the cylinders was damaged from burning coolant) as well as a new clutch.

At the time, I got a small personal loan to cover the costs, and with the idea of getting an engine into almost 'as-new' condition, it was well worth the $100 / month.

 

[mspa]

Hey Dingman, was that a V6 you had rebuilt? Mine is the V6, and everything is way too expensive out here in the Seattle area.

====

Well, I'm happy to say I have decided, okay, my wife and I agree, we're keeping the 4runner. The problems are fixable, and not outrageous.

I had the shop check out the 4x4 and transfer case and such, since I haven't even had a chance to do that yet. I wanted to make sure there weren't more issues in there. Fortunately, they reported there's a little weeping, but nothing a simple service can't take care of, and that can wait from some time. So we made the decision I was hoping for.

Now the killer part is that I have to sell some instruments to raise cash to get some of this done. Not what I was hoping for, or anything I'd want to do. But at least those are replaceable things I can live without easier than not having a vehicle . . .

So for now, the shop owner doesn't mind keeping the truck at his shop until I can figure this all out. No charge. Really nice guy. Anyway, I look forward to another update soon.

 

[mspa]

Well, my truck is in the shop. I know, I know . . . some of this stuff I could do myself . . . but the mechanic has really discounted the job, in package form, so it makes the most sense for me now.

I thought I'd pass along a curious note. When they pulled the clutch assembly apart, they discovered the friction plate had been installed BACKWARDS.

Anyone seen that one before?

Evidentally, the clutch still worked, but it really wore down quick. That would explain a few things.

 

[zombie]

I actually had a mechanic forget to install the clutch once. He was a new guy that thought he knew everything, he even commented on how easily he was able to line up the transmission. I went out to get coffee's and put his on the new clutch and he still didn't notice. We eventually clued him in when he was about to order a new master and slave for the hydrolic clutch that was obviously faulty causing the new clutch not to engage. The same guy a few weeks later removed the ring with the weights on a centerforce clutch, thought it was the packaging. We found out after the customer complained that there was no difference with the new clutch. It was in an awd Dodge stealth, not an easy clutch to change. He didn't last too much longer after that.

 

[mspa]

I got my truck back today, and boy, what a difference!

I can't believe how quiet this thing is. No rattle, tapping, nothing. It's got a new timing belt, water pump, idler arm, etc. new radiator, hoses, replaired power steering hose (main source of leaking), valve cover gaskets, clutch is wonderful . . . it's like a whole new truck.

Now I know I'll be eager to get to small inconvenience items like a rear window that is getting stuck halfway down, and will go up, and a passenger window that needs the wiring corrected.

A great place to be. The shop that did the work was extremely generous in their time and gave me big discounts, without I would have not been able to get this done.

Overall, this has turned into a great experience, and a big lesson learned.

Lesson: if a shop tells you that you need a new engine, get a second opinion