Shut down.......

[MENTION=56396]Hepar[/MENTION] just curious but do you support e-verify which is a real valid measure to limit the employment of those here illegally?

E-verify holds employers accountable much the same that Canada and Mexico bar the hiring of illegal immigrants.
 
[MENTION=56396]Hepar[/MENTION] just curious but do you support e-verify which is a real valid measure to limit the employment of those here illegally?

E-verify holds employers accountable much the same that Canada and Mexico bar the hiring of illegal immigrants.

Geez, good question. I know this was aimed at Hepar, but I thought I would chime in too. My initial gut here is yes, but stopping illegals from working accomplishes what exactly? If they’re getting ran through a system like that, I would imagine it’s a legit job which would mean they would pay taxes.

I found this tidbit online
In 2010 alone, more than 3 million undocumented workers contributed as much as $13 billion to Social Security, even though most won’t be eligible to receive those retirement benefits, according to a Social Security Administration report.

https://ww2.kqed.org/lowdown/2017/05/05/do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes-with-lesson-plan/

I feel like there’s 2 common arguments from the anti immigrant crowd, 1, they’re taking our jobs, and 2, they’re a burden on the tax payer with all their ‘handouts’.

I have a hard time imaging how illegals would win out over an American, but if it comes down to it, sadly, I would say the American is not very qualified or marketable either. And 2, I don’t know what the numbers are for government assistance to illegal immigrants are, so I can’t speak intelligently to it. But regardless, why do I give a shit if my tax dollars go to keeping an immigrant, illegally or not, family afloat? I may be naive, but if someone is in a situation where they rate government assistance because of their income level, I would rather my tax dollars go to keep somebody on the straight and level than force them to look for other means to kee their family fed. I would say the same for an American as well.

I’m generalizing, but the crowd who would be against their tax dollars going towards government assistance for illegal Immigrants probably also carry the same attitude toward Americans on the same programs. And people want more freedom, and smaller government, but they want protection from illegal immigrants in the work force.

I will also submit that the opposite argument is equally as valid. If you help 1 illegal, then where does it stop. The US is not a meal ticket and I agree completely. But if you stop legit employers from hiring illegal immigrants then you host illegals working under the table. And that legitimizes some of the above anti-illegal points.
 
You guys want to know how illegals are a burden to the US.. In california, they cross the border legally, overstay their visa, and pop out a kid. Once they have a kid, the PARENTS are entitles to all the benefits of a US citizen (at least in california). However, the parents don't have any marketable skills, so either they start a cash business or work under the table, so they collect unemployment, and NOT pay taxes.

Once the kid is on his own, the parents move back/sneak back to tijuana, but they keep their kid's USA address as their permanent residents, so they can continue to collect welfare and unemployment but they now live in mexico, and living like kings on US tax payers dimes.

You guys probably want to know how I know this scam, because my best friend's family DID THIS and is still doing this. Luckily for my buddy, he was the kid that family decided to pop out on US soil, and he didn't turn out to be a loser like the rest of his family. My buddy's story really open my eyes, and then I finally realized how los angeles turned into a shit hole. Every side street in Los Angeles (Western/Olympic?rampart) is a mini swap meet..... and every one of those people you see on the streets of Los Angeles is doing the same scam. Those that aren't doing this scam, are actually doing illegal vato/cholo stuff, like stealing cars and shipping them to Tijuana, or transporting drugs from San Diego to Los Angeles, or running puppy mills, etc.... This is what my buddy's cousins do. Straight up vato's.

THIS IS ALSO THE HIDDEN COST OF DACA. The true burden isn't necessarily the DACA participants, but more so the extended family associated with them. DACA participants usually aren't kids, and usually have families that follow them into the US (illegally), and this is what the media likes to leave out.

Anyways, 45 percent of my income goes to taxes that is paying for some loser in Las Angeles or living in Tijuana and getting everything for free (and additional cash from their side hustle)......... If my money was being spent on US citizens, I probably won't be so angry.

This is the california that I currently live in.

Oh I forgot to mention, my buddy hates his extended family because of all the illegal crap they do, and how he has to pay for it indirectly (taxes) and directly (ripping him off financially). I also found out most legal immigrants feel the same way about illegal immigrants, because they know of the side hustles and scams they see going on around them.
 
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I feel like there’s 2 common arguments from the anti immigrant crowd, 1, they’re taking our jobs, and 2, they’re a burden on the tax payer with all their ‘handouts’.

Answer: They (including the H1-B Visa holders) are depressing our wages!

My wife is a nurse in San Diego. If they allowed Mexican citizen nurses to cross the border for work in US hospitals ---> of course nurses wages and raises would be repressed. You don't have to be damn genius to understand this. Interestingly the medical field explicitly created protectionist policies (also think AIRLINE PILOTS) to KEEP OUT foreigners specifically.
* To be a Dr. you have to do your medical residency at a US hospital training program or specially certified US linked program
* To be a Nurse you have to complete your nursing Sr year hospital training at a US institution
* To be a pilot you have to log XX thousand hours (now) of US air flight training miles.

These are protectionist policies that the airline pilot workers lobbied (and the nurses and doctors) to get enshrined into US LAW. This is protectionism. Now if we could only get some of it in other US industries the workers might stand a chance.

I highly recommend you read or listen to (includes audio option) this:
----> How the Democrats Lost Their Way on Immigration | https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

And also check out this piece from Politico, hardly what I would call a far-right publication:
---> Yes, Immigration Hurts American Workers | https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216


Lastly .... folks WAKE THE F#CK UP please ... and no that doesn't mean you have to specifically support Trump or be hateful to immigrants (hatred is always wrong). Please understand that being ignorant (or lying) and falsely claiming ALL immigration ALWAYS is good for American workers really does none of us any favors as a society.

:bat:
 
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Answer: They (including the H1-B Visa holders) are depressing our wages!

My wife is a nurse in San Diego. If they allowed Mexican citizen nurses to cross the border for work in US hospitals ---> of course nurses wages and raises would be repressed. You don't have to be damn genius to understand this. Interestingly the medical field explicitly created protectionist policies (also think AIRLINE PILOTS) to KEEP OUT foreigners specifically.
* To be a Dr. you have to do your medical residency at a US hospital training program or specially certified US linked program
* To be a Nurse you have to complete your nursing Sr year hospital training at a US institution
* To be a pilot you have to log XX thousand hours (now) of US air flight training miles.

These are protectionist policies that the airline pilot workers lobbied (and the nurses and doctors) to get enshrined into US LAW. This is protectionism. Now if we could only get some of it in other US industries the workers might stand a chance.

I highly recommend you read or listen to (includes audio option) this:
----> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

And also check out this piece from Politico, hardly what I would call a far-right publication:
--> https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216


Lastly .... folks WAKE THE F#CK UP please ... and no that doesn't mean you have to support Trump or be hateful to immigrants (that would be wrong) just realize that ignorance / lying and saying ALL immigration always good does none of us any favors as a society.

:bat:

Interesting that you shared about your wife's career. I just wanted to add that Pharmacists use to be like that, but the morons in sacramento figured out that it was insanely profitable to open 16 pharmacy schools in california alone because of the tax revenue, so now the job field for pharmacists is extremely depressed. Only reason my job is still relevent and my wages are high, is because its a govenment mandated position. Oh, the irony.
 
Yes I bring this up because it is one of the strongest points that my liberal leaning friends and family painfully acknowlege and for the most part no one in the Democratic party or "the left" wants to bring up.

The Dems seem to have shifted from smart immigration (which yes includes deportation) to somehow believing that all immigration of every type and of any unlimited amount is always good. No folks -- there are real drawbacks and this is a concept understood world wide.

There is a reason why most countries limit and control immigration, including Canada and Mexico.
 
Yes I bring this up because it is one of the strongest points that my liberal leaning friends and family painfully acknowlege and for the most part no one in the Democratic party or "the left" wants to bring up.

The Dems seem to have shifted from smart immigration (which yes includes deportation) to somehow believing that all immigration of every type and of any unlimited amount is always good. No folks -- there are real drawbacks and this is a concept understood world wide.

There is a reason why most countries limit and control immigration, including Canada and Mexico.

Canada is actually crying foul over illegal immigration from the US as they are flooding across their border to get better free benefits.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyjs...-down-on-immigration-in-the-u-s/#50389896715a
 
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Oh I forgot to mention, my buddy hates his extended family because of all the illegal crap they do, and how he has to pay for it indirectly (taxes) and directly (ripping him off financially). I also found out most legal immigrants feel the same way about illegal immigrants, because they know of the side hustles and scams they see going on around them.

Personally I’d hate the easily exploited system that allows this kind of fraud to run rampant more than I’d hate the people who exploit it.
 
[MENTION=56396]Hepar[/MENTION] just curious but do you support e-verify which is a real valid measure to limit the employment of those here illegally?

E-verify holds employers accountable much the same that Canada and Mexico bar the hiring of illegal immigrants.

Yes and no. Really clears that up, right? There are things I do like about it and things I do not. It's the same in regards to illegal immigration. I do think there is a problem. But I also don't think the answer would be to eliminate it all together.

Now I know that lasts statement is opening a can of worms, so just know that I have my reason to feel that way and I'm not getting into them here. Don't feel like it's the appropriate place to really dig into that type of conversation. If any of us should meet face to face, I'd love to discuss it.
 
Answer: They (including the H1-B Visa holders) are depressing our wages!

My wife is a nurse in San Diego. If they allowed Mexican citizen nurses to cross the border for work in US hospitals ---> of course nurses wages and raises would be repressed. You don't have to be damn genius to understand this. Interestingly the medical field explicitly created protectionist policies (also think AIRLINE PILOTS) to KEEP OUT foreigners specifically.
* To be a Dr. you have to do your medical residency at a US hospital training program or specially certified US linked program
* To be a Nurse you have to complete your nursing Sr year hospital training at a US institution
* To be a pilot you have to log XX thousand hours (now) of US air flight training miles.

These are protectionist policies that the airline pilot workers lobbied (and the nurses and doctors) to get enshrined into US LAW. This is protectionism. Now if we could only get some of it in other US industries the workers might stand a chance.

I feel like you’ve completely flipped the script. I was referring to illegal immigration, and was largely talking about unskilled labor. I don’t think that’s a bridge too far in terms of generalization.

As far as the medical field and pilots, I mean that’s pretty common sense over fears of protecting the work force. The FDA and FAA aren’t going to accredit schools and programs overseas when they can’t verify or even dictate standards to those nations.

I’m a pilot with a fairly complex mission set. And I’ve worked with foreign pilots and have had the opportunity to fly in their aircraft in both an advisor and safety back stop role. Great dudes and skilled, but they were definitely behind the curve in capabilities compared to the US Counterparts. There’s a multitude of reasons for that, but bottom line is we just operate differently.

H-1B Visas exist to bring over qualified people in fields where there is a lack of quality Americans. This H-1B Visa, specifically, keeps the US at the forefront of technical innovation dominance.

Yes, people overstay Visa’s. And yes, I agree, they do dilute wages. But when Trump and his base talk about ‘illegals’ they’re talking about the dudes that slipped past @2016_4Runner_SR5’s gaurd shack They’re talking about DACA recipients. The wall is not going to fix the problem you’re specifically talking about.

And as far as applying protections for industrial workers? I hear you, I do. But on trumps first day as President elect he went and saved a carrier plant from moving to Mexico. If it’s not worth it for the company, they will find a place that is. 1 plant. I also heard a story this morning on NPR about automation. You want to talk about being completely ****ed? 20yrs from now, automation will likely be able to outdo any human in the industrial field. Just look at the progress we’ve made from 1918 to 2018.
 
I feel like you’ve completely flipped the script. I was referring to illegal immigration, and was largely talking about unskilled labor. I don’t think that’s a bridge too far in terms of generalization.

As far as the medical field and pilots, I mean that’s pretty common sense over fears of protecting the work force. The FDA and FAA aren’t going to accredit schools and programs overseas when they can’t verify or even dictate standards to those nations.

I’m a pilot with a fairly complex mission set. And I’ve worked with foreign pilots and have had the opportunity to fly in their aircraft in both an advisor and safety back stop role. Great dudes and skilled, but they were definitely behind the curve in capabilities compared to the US Counterparts. There’s a multitude of reasons for that, but bottom line is we just operate differently.

H-1B Visas exist to bring over qualified people in fields where there is a lack of quality Americans. This H-1B Visa, specifically, keeps the US at the forefront of technical innovation dominance.

Yes, people overstay Visa’s. And yes, I agree, they do dilute wages. But when Trump and his base talk about ‘illegals’ they’re talking about the dudes that slipped past @2016_4Runner_SR5’s gaurd shack They’re talking about DACA recipients. The wall is not going to fix the problem you’re specifically talking about.

And as far as applying protections for industrial workers? I hear you, I do. But on trumps first day as President elect he went and saved a carrier plant from moving to Mexico. If it’s not worth it for the company, they will find a place that is. 1 plant. I also heard a story this morning on NPR about automation. You want to talk about being completely ****ed? 20yrs from now, automation will likely be able to outdo any human in the industrial field. Just look at the progress we’ve made from 1918 to 2018.

On the subject of automation (really offtopic on my part):
What strikes me as ironic is when the far liberal left talk about increasing minimum wages, they don't realize that those entry jobs won't be around in the near future if labor costs become more expensive than automation/tech. It's also ironic that those rich liberal elites that champion higher minimum wage also are the leaders of automation (silicon valley). If they push for higher wages, companies will have a financial incentive to purchase/fund/develop automation from tech companies, and those liberal CEO's will look like darlings/saviors to the poor liberal masses, while at the same time, developing technologies that are going to wipe out those entry level jobs. Either way, its a lose/lose for the poor, and a win/win for the rich, liberal elites.
 
Back in the early '00s I worked at a startup company with close to ten Indian-born engineers on staff. All were on H1B VISAs. The company would run a small ad in the local paper's classifieds advertising for a job that, in reality, didn't exist. They needed to run the ad to satisfy legal requirements for sponsoring all the VISAs.
 
I feel like I should add to all this talk about immigration that believe there should be a path forward for most of illegal immigrants to stay here. An amnesty followed by another 20 years of deportation to enforce the law on post amnesty arrivals. This isn't a popular position on either side of the argument.

I also think that instead of H-1B Visa immigrants who have no real path to citizenship, who drive down American wages while never actually getting a fair shot at the American dream (they have to leave after 2 yrs), instead of that we should have limited quantity but long term immigration opportunities for those who want to come here and meet a certain criteria. Lets start with ability to learn english and being skilled enough that they won't be on government benefits or a source of crime.

That's the kind of deal I'd like to see the left and right make.
 
Friend of mine brought a very valid point that I had not thought of. Trump said he wants a wall, he never said what kind of wall. Block wall, human wall, guard towers....... There is a very simple and not nearly as costly solution to the problem of border jumpers. Set up guard towers (only cost and employing the American people) and have AMERICAN people volunteer. We use our weapons, our ammo, our time, and secure our borders. The line of volunteer's will be out the door and the issue will be resolved. No 2nd chances, no being deported a dozen times, just one shot, one kill. Maybe then these people will think twice. If not, that's ok, vultures need to eat too.

I seriously doubt the American public is ready to condone guard towers and the shooting of illegal border crossers. If they were, the American version of the Berlin Wall would have been in place a long time ago, complete with minefields and bunkers.

Ask anyone who actually works on the border: Trump's wall is simply pandering to his base, who have no idea how to stop illegal immigration. They just know they don't like it and will seize on any perceived "solution."

I started working for the federal government in 1995, working for the now-defunct Immigration and Naturalization Service. I later worked for other agencies that had a nexus to the INS mission, so I've worked on the border, hand-in-hand with the Border Patrol, been on worksite enforcement raids, etc.

The consensus among people I know is that the idea of a wall doing anything other than lulling people into a false sense of security is ludicrous. There are fences and walls now, and people go over, under and around them, come in vehicles, on planes, etc.

They keep coming because - despite the physical barriers that exist - U.S. employers still hire them. Yes, there are penalties for hiring illegals, but they are rarely enforced. Why? Because the people who own the larger illegal-hiring companies make big contributions to their elected representatives. And while those representatives will readily pony up money for more agents, talk tough about stemming the flow of illegal immigrants, and now blather on about some magical wall, what they WON'T do is bite the hand that feeds them with political contributions. Ironically, these are mainly republicans, who have always talked the talk regarding illegal immigration but have yet to walk the walk.

Moreover, even if they were to hold the employers' feet to the fire, the law is not about strict liability. Meaning if you're caught hiring illegals, all you have to do is claim you didn't know and there's no case, regardless of how stunningly-obvious the violation may be. I've seen HR directors at meat-packing plants in the Midwest claim not to know that Pedro was illegal - despite the fact that he spoke no English and had a fake SS card that looked like it was drawn with a crayon.

Take money (in the from of political contributions) out of the equation and make the enablers accountable. Then revise the the law, but actually enforce it.

And with that said, we're a country of immigrants. So create an easier path for people who actually want to come here - one that allows them to contribute, stay off public assistance, not be a burden, and assimilate. And despite the obvious leanings of our current administration, make it applicable to everyone and not just white people from Norway (?). We'll still get a few bad apples, but I predict that by and large, we'll end up with a lot of hardworking taxpayers who appreciate the home this country has given them. Everything else is just bluster, in my opinion, and too many people can't see past it.
 

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