Start fail in parking lot

G

Grenvilleter

New member
Today my 97 4runner let me down away from home for the first time.
Symptoms as observed upon initial failure are-
No problem with battery. Engine cranks over no problem.
No dash lights except for the airbag warning when switch turned to on position.
Pwr windows non-operational.
Strongly suspect failure to start is result of no pwr to fuel pump and other critical components ( ECU/ ign system).

It was dark, cold and windy in a snowstorm when the failure happened. Fortunately, was able to get my dear 80 yr old mother and crippled up wife home via friends rescue trip but inspecting the fuses can wait until tomorrow when I go back to try to diagnose why but hoping someone can point me where/what to check for tomorrow when I go and try to recover it.

Unfortunately it is in the hospital parking lot where they charge about 7.00/ hr for the convenience of parking there so I would like to get it out asap before parking fees overrun the worth of the truck.

I have a parts truck as well so if I can take what I may need tomorrow to get some life back into my yota and out of there.
Anyone have any clue's to what I should haul with me to attempt this?
Thanks ahead of time
 
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I'm not sure what your saying about the dash lights. So only the air bag on while cranking? or just in the "On" position? If no Check Engine Light with the key in the "On" Position I highly suspect the (+) terminal loose or the Main 140 amp fuse. Both use a bolt type fastener that as unlikely as it might be could be loose, in cold weather. Most often, if there is no MIL on the main 140 amp fuse is blown.
 
After giving it some thought, I too think it has to be a fuse.

To clarify, I get no instrument idiot lights when key is positioned in the on position prior to engaging the starter.
I'll dig a bit more before I go try to recover it and hopefully find a possible fuse connection that may have failed.

The one thing that scares me is that sometime, someone installed a remote start/alarm system and their splicing was not really up to standard. I pulled the kick panel off one day and it scared me with the splicing quality of the work.

I'm hoping it's not a result of something there.
There was a rapid change/drop in outdoor temps in the couple hrs I was at the hospital so perhaps a thermal contraction, although unusual, might be the problem.

First move is to locate potential bad fuses that would cause such an issue, get a selection and head back with DVM in hand.
 
I had the same issue, it was a loose and corroded positive battery terminal. The terminal was so loose even with it tightened as much as possible I could pop it right off the battery post with little effort. And the corrosion wasn't obvious until I took the terminal off. Just something to check if you haven't already.
 
Thanks Wally but the engine cranks over just fine.
I just got back after checking all the fuses under the hood and in the cabin as well.
Seems to be power everywhere there is suppose to be.
I was hoping I would find something in main fuse box under the hood but no love and all voltages seem to be present on both sides of fuses as well as feeding into the cab fuse panel. I didn't swap any relays yet.

Heater motor no go, no signal lights, no pwr windows, horn works, radio works , pwr locks work. No dash indicator lights.

I guess I'm going to have to find a wire diagram and get truck towed to somewhere heated so I can get into it in more depth.
Was really hoping it was a fuseable link or something like.
Noticed the short ground from battery terminal to fender gnd was broken off but I be surprised if that was the offending problem.
I did complete the connection there but no love.

Can anyone point a guy towards a good wire diagram so I can figure out where the pwr gets distributed to after it gets into the inner fuse panel ?
 
Grenvilleter said:
Thanks Wally but the engine cranks over just fine.
I just got back after checking all the fuses under the hood and in the cabin as well.
Seems to be power everywhere there is suppose to be.
I was hoping I would find something in main fuse box under the hood but no love and all voltages seem to be present on both sides of fuses as well as feeding into the cab fuse panel. I didn't swap any relays yet.

Heater motor no go, no signal lights, no pwr windows, horn works, radio works , pwr locks work. No dash indicator lights.

I guess I'm going to have to find a wire diagram and get truck towed to somewhere heated so I can get into it in more depth.
Was really hoping it was a fuseable link or something like.
Noticed the short ground from battery terminal to fender gnd was broken off but I be surprised if that was the offending problem.
I did complete the connection there but no love.

Can anyone point a guy towards a good wire diagram so I can figure out where the pwr gets distributed to after it gets into the inner fuse panel ?
Click to expand...

Did you do a good, permanent fix on the body ground? It is essential.

For '97 courtesy [MENTION=139000]phattyduck[/MENTION] (I'd carry out all the checks in the Service Hints section). You also need to check BOTH sides of ALL fuses in the aux. fuse panel by driver's knee with key ON. Need this info for fault analysis. There are SEVERAL feeds to the aux panel, not just one.

I find it hard to believe "I just got back after checking all the fuses under the hood and in the cabin as well.Seems to be power everywhere there is suppose to be" with that symptom set. Very hard.
 

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I really don't have a lot of experience with 3rd gen 4runners but did you crack open the fuse box? check to make sure everything is clean and tight.

Here's a thread with pictures that might help: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/118678-how-replace-fusible-links-w-pics.html

A few more things to check:
- even though no check engine light is coming up, plug in a scanner to see if there are codes stored
- spray some starting fluid in the throttle body and crank her up to see if you can get it started
- check ignition components. check for spark.
- does the truck have fuel in it? :)

I'm curious to see what you find.
 
When checking for voltage, I was taking my gnd directly off the battery post.
Probably should have been looking for a chassis gnd instead.
When I get it out of the parking lot and into someplace warmer/drier, I prolly won't be in as big a hurry.

Thanks for the diagram and tips .
 
Well...good news / bad news re: my truck with a break in the cold weather I was able to re-do questionable frame gnd but I deff confirmed it was the remote start/ alarm.

After re-doing the gnds, I fooled around with the alarm with the ghosts in it and was able to start the truck via remotely, All dash lights came on as normal and windows heater work.
The sad part is, the truck thinks I am not authorized to drive it and soon as brake light is activated, it shuts everything down and reverts back to "I am being stolen" mode including blowing the horn.

The really sad part is, I know not how these aftermarket gadgets work and have zero experience with them. This one obviously needs to be removed however I don't even know what is factory and what is aftermarket as this being my 1st runner bought used with remote start installed.
 
Grenvilleter said:
Well...good news / bad news re: my truck with a break in the cold weather I was able to re-do questionable frame gnd but I deff confirmed it was the remote start/ alarm.

After re-doing the gnds, I fooled around with the alarm with the ghosts in it and was able to start the truck via remotely, All dash lights came on as normal and windows heater work.
The sad part is, the truck thinks I am not authorized to drive it and soon as brake light is activated, it shuts everything down and reverts back to "I am being stolen" mode including blowing the horn.

The really sad part is, I know not how these aftermarket gadgets work and have zero experience with them. This one obviously needs to be removed however I don't even know what is factory and what is aftermarket as this being my 1st runner bought used with remote start installed.
Click to expand...

Is there a local car stereo shop/security installer nearby that you could get some help from? If it were me, I'd probably just tear the whole system out. Don't imagine there's a huge theft issue in the ottawa valley.
 
Were doors locked/unlocked when starting and entering? Key in and on?
What about remote start in neutral?
Most are tied in at IGN switch somewhere at dash-steering column ( white wires ? ) maybe by pass that connection.
 
My druthers would be to remove everything however, to do so, I need to find out who makes the remote start, and then figure out colour codes and options installed.
I expect before this show is over, I'll know more about remote starters than I ever wanted to learn.
To jump into this blind and ripping out stuff without knowing the mindset of the installer is asking to blow up something critical in the ECU or other modules.
I think I found the 'brains' up under the dash along with a ball of wire wrapped up large enough to choke a hound.

Next move is to try to get some access to the brainbox by gently separating the
ball of wire and getting it down to where I can examine it closer.

... A thought just occurred... I had the hood up therefore the plunger switch hood sensor was open. I am guessing any one of a number of things could cause the remote starter/alarm to think it's getting high jacked.
 
Update-

With zero success at reprogramming the alarm system, ( no box under the seat btw), I went into the module under the dash and got it down for visual inspection for broken wires etc.
Unfortunately, no visible breakage of harness.

I was able via the fob to get the truck to start via remote however soon as I put my foot on the brake to engage xmission, immediate shutdown and disable of dash indicators etc. The truck thinks its being stolen.

Removed the cct bd from alarm and visually confirmed what relay disables the dash indicators preventing the truck from running. I rigged up a little bypass switch to permanently hold the relay in the closed position and I am now able to start the truck and actually drive it.
Not in the normal way as now I can remove the key and things still stay running until I release the relay via installed switch. Signal lights, heater fan,pwr windows, and all seems to work.

Removing the alarm system completely is incredibly complicated And what I want is a jumper plug that will bypass the alarm/remote start module disabling all this stuff.
Unless I can find what the pin-out is on this alarm module, I think I'm beat.
The module has a paper label that one time may have told me more info (make/model) but the ink has faded to unreadable condition.

I may try to take the chance and drive to the city and locate a reputable alarm place to see if they have any clue's or suggestions how to get this truck back on the road and restore my confidence in it
 
Another update-

As mentioned in above post, I rigged a ign alarm bypass switch into the remote module.
Went to town for supplies and truck ran without incident.

When I got back home, I decided to try to start the truck in it's normal way without my bypass activated and much to my surprise, everything worked as normal.

I'm still inclined to think its an intermittent problem in the cpu of the alarm/remote module.

As I read about others having ghosts in your truck alarm blowing the horn at all hours etc, just take note, mine had weird things happening for a couple years with lights turning on and off and horn blowing etc. all on its own for no apparent cause, beware !

I really still have no idea how to repair this problem I have and if it's intermittent, I may never sort it out.

Fortunately, I live in a very low crime area and really don't need an alarm or remote start ability but if I could find a dummy plug/ wiring diagram that would allow me to bypass the complete module, that would be my choice of repair on a truck that maybe has another year of road worthiness due to rust issues.
After that, it gets relegated to snow plow duty and bush/trail running. Too bad as the truck only has 225,000 Km on it and should be good for another hundred Km with basic engine maintenance
 
Stereo/Alarm shops are charging around $100 and up to remove alarms these days.
If I had your situation, and had the spendable, that is the route I'd go.
 
I've always heard that aftermarket alarms were no good because they cause issues. But this is extreme... and "un-wiring" all that is really complicated like you've found out. Sorry to hear that, hope you can get it back to normal again. I have nothing to add... I don't have an alarm nor do I care to.
 
Actually, after pulling out several yards of additional discontinuous wiring/relay from under the dash from previous owner for some add-on (maybe lights?), I am inclined to think the alarm system was a 'port' or dealer install that TheDirk spoke about.
All that extra wiring made me think it was part of the system until I started pulling it out to see where they went.

The module was dated June'97 and a couple software revisions that had not faded to unreadable status.

The remote start option I suspect is an additional black box found up under the dash also wired into the alarm system. No identifying marks on the 2nd box at all.

Some thoughts I've had that might be causing the problem is a back hatch switch (door open) may be preventing me from doing a reprogram assuming the procedure works for a early version of alarm ?

Getting a accurate wire diagram might allow me to build a bypass plug to plug into the harness where it connects to the alarm cpu.
All over the engine compartment, engraved on various parts is a numbered code starting with YUL, the airport code for Montreal. A buddy claims those numbers were placed there for the alarm system as he used to actually do the engraving for some auto company.

Maybe, using that number, Toyota could provide some documentation to how these were installed and get me a schematic so I could actually figure out what wires do what and devise some sort of bypass.

Needless to say, none of this instills confidence that another failure will not happen sometime most likely at the most inopportune time.
 
Been a bit and I still have not repaired my 4runner. I am driving it however.

After a bit of fooling around and pulling down the remote start box, I actually ripped it apart to discover the mechanical relays that control the remote start sequence and its all driven by a prom processor.

As perhaps I mentioned, I was able to start the truck remotely but could not disable the alarm portion while in that specific mode.

I yanked the cct board out after identifying which relay powers up the dash idiot lights, enables the windows and hvac fans, signals, everything needed to operate normally.

As a temporary measure, I rigged up a little spst toggle to remotely parallel close the relay contacts and put a switch on my dash in an empty switch panel.

Everything went fine except the first trial run into town to get some supplies, I parked at the grocery store and shut the key off normally and went into to get provisions. Came back out 20 minutes later to discover the truck running merrily in the parking lot as it was never given the order to shut down with the relay shorted out.

Also discovered the unit/fault is cold sensitive as after the truck has been running for a spell with heat on, everything works as normal and my relay bypass is no longer needed.

This problem happened right after a sudden drop in outdoor temperature.


Possible cold solder joint on either the processor board I installed the shunt in or another additional black box that is also a not factory install.
I might get lucky with a hair dryer and pinpoint the faulty control box and then I can go from there looking for a cold solder joint.

Anyhow, it's been interesting so far !
I considered pulling the harness out of my '98 donor truck and bypassing the whole chunk of harness where the alarm is wired in but, as I figure 1 more year of road driving before it get retired to full time bush-off road /snowplow duty and a replacement DD is found.
 
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