starting issue - contacts and more already done

[PNW yota]

So recently I've had a totally random starting issue acting like a bad ground. At random times I turn the key and get absolutely nothing, not even a click. Other times it fires right up full force. Here's what's been done so far.

1) Starter rebuilt (including contacts) and tested.
2) All grounds inspected, at least the 3 I'm aware of (battery, engine block to fire wall, alternator to just under oil filter).
3) Added a 0 gauge ground cable to replace the tiny one off the battery
4) brand new interstate battery
5) Starter relay tested
6) Denso IK22 plugs (proper gap) less than 3k ago
7) MAF sensor cleaned (I'm getting desperate)

I haven't tested the alternator but to me this doesn't sound like an alternator problem because everything else in the rig has power and I only have issues starting, not dying on the road.

At this point I think I'm down to something in the key ignition system itself.

The only other new gremlin I'm dealing with is when I put the rig into park it sometimes doesn't think I'm in park and therefore won't let me take the key out (it's stuck in the ON position). And I have to jiggle the shift lever a bit. BUT when I've had trouble starting I've tried in neutral and there's no difference. So I don't think the park issue is related.

Any ideas??????

 

[Grenvilleter]

Perhaps you could define "not starting" by telling us if the engine rolls over but fails to fire or if there is no response from your starter when you engage the starter motor cct.

I'm going to guess that it's the starter that is not engaging. Did you test the starter motor after replacement of the contacts ? When you engage the key, is there 12vdc on the small signal wire that goes to your starter solenoid ?

IF the answer is YES to both, revisit your connection of the large wire where it attaches to the starter and make sure it is clean, shiny and tight.

Edit- rereading I see the starter motor was tested therefore, again, check to make sure you are triggering the solenoid via looking for 12vdc on the signal wire when your key is in the start position.

 

[IBallEngineer]

So recently I've had a totally random starting issue acting like a bad ground. At random times I turn the key and get absolutely nothing, not even a click. Other times it fires right up full force. Here's what's been done so far.

1) Starter rebuilt (including contacts) and tested.
2) All grounds inspected, at least the 3 I'm aware of (battery, engine block to fire wall, alternator to just under oil filter).
3) Added a 0 gauge ground cable to replace the tiny one off the battery
4) brand new interstate battery
5) Starter relay tested
6) Denso IK22 plugs (proper gap) less than 3k ago
7) MAF sensor cleaned (I'm getting desperate)

I haven't tested the alternator but to me this doesn't sound like an alternator problem because everything else in the rig has power and I only have issues starting, not dying on the road.

At this point I think I'm down to something in the key ignition system itself.

The only other new gremlin I'm dealing with is when I put the rig into park it sometimes doesn't think I'm in park and therefore won't let me take the key out (it's stuck in the ON position). And I have to jiggle the shift lever a bit. BUT when I've had trouble starting I've tried in neutral and there's no difference. So I don't think the park issue is related.

Any ideas??????

Wow, you don't think the ONE gremlin you have, which is totally related to the starting circuit, has anything to do with your problem?

I only have 34 years or so of wrenching experience so don't just listen to me, but that would be the very first thing I'd resolve before even looking elsewhere.

But let's look elsewhere shall we?

You say the starter relay was tested, but what does that mean? And while we are there, did you test all four circuits to and from the relay? It's easy to do, and solves or rules out almost everything related to the starter circuit.

Now, you mention you changed spark plugs and cleaned the MAF sensor, why? Is it cranking and not starting? If so, why are we troubleshooting the starter?

If it's not cranking, check the battery cable at the starter, 12 volts present while attempting to crank? OK, is the starter grounded, yes? OK, is the trigger wire getting 12V while cranking from the starter relay? If Yes, the starter is no good, if any of these are a NO, follow that problem.

:hungry:

 

[Grenvilleter]

I don't think IBall that troublesome little switch in the shift console that provides power to the ign sw. lockout solenoid would prevent the starter from getting "triggered" as I did the cheap and nasty disable by clipping the pwr wire from the shift sw. to the ign solenoid. Had nil effect on the starter engagement circuitry.
I did rebuild my starter only to think my rebuild failed after a couple starts to find it was just the main pwr cable was not making a good contact on the starter post.
That's why I recommend a closer look at where the cable bolts on.
FTR, when I initially first reassembled and had a failure a day or so later, I really thought the starter rebuild had failed as I usually pay attention to making those high current ccts are properly done the first time.

 

[IBallEngineer]

I don't think IBall that troublesome little switch in the shift console that provides power to the ign sw. lockout solenoid would prevent the starter from getting "triggered" as I did the cheap and nasty disable by clipping the pwr wire from the shift sw. to the ign solenoid. Had nil effect on the starter engagement circuitry.
I did rebuild my starter only to think my rebuild failed after a couple starts to find it was just the main pwr cable was not making a good contact on the starter post.
That's why I recommend a closer look at where the cable bolts on.
FTR, when I initially first reassembled and had a failure a day or so later, I really thought the starter rebuild had failed as I usually pay attention to making those high current ccts are properly done the first time.

Two different things at play here Gren, the reason I said it is paramount has to do with the ACTUAL position of the shifter, not the lockout for the key. So it may be that the transmission is in Park, but the shifter is maladjusted or the Park/Neutral switch is maladjusted causing his starting woes. For the Park/Neutral switch provides power to the coil side of the starter relay, which is why I asked if he tested the "circuits" for the starter relay, not just the relay. If there is power at T2 of the Starter Relay, the P/N switch is OTAY. Your advice is good though, the contact must be good at the cable.

:thanks:

 

[Grenvilleter]

I kinda thought you were headed in the neutral safety switch direction. When the OP talked about shifter/ ign sw probs, I wrongfully assumed it was the ign solenoid preventing the switch from being turned all the way off as it happened in mine.

Hopefully, the OP checks that the solenoid engagement voltage is present when attempting to start and if not, definitely one of the places to check for irregularities as it could be the contributing problem.

 

[PNW yota]

Perhaps you could define "not starting" by telling us if the engine rolls over but fails to fire or if there is no response from your starter when you engage the starter motor cct.

By absolutely nothing, not even a click, I mean it does absolutely nothing. No cranking at all.

I only have 34 years or so of wrenching experience so don't just listen to me, but that would be the very first thing I'd resolve before even looking elsewhere.

But let's look elsewhere shall we?

You say the starter relay was tested, but what does that mean? And while we are there, did you test all four circuits to and from the relay? It's easy to do, and solves or rules out almost everything related to the starter circuit.

I don't have 34 years experience. I youtube'd someone testing a starter relay with a mutlimeter and 9v battery and everything tested on the video worked on my relay. I don't know where the 4 circuits to and from the relay are. Or how to test them.

Now, you mention you changed spark plugs and cleaned the MAF sensor, why? Is it cranking and not starting? If so, why are we troubleshooting the starter?

As I was reading other "starter problem" threads, those were some things people mentioned to check and I figured I lay every possibility out there that I'd done. I realize without any cranking, plugs and MAF sensor will do nothing.

I cleaned and triple checked all connections for looseness, corrosion or other causes for bad connections on the battery, alternator and starter. Everything is good there. The starter was tested (and partially rebuilt) at a professional shop before I attempted to place it back in.

I have not tested for 12v at the starter, or while cranking, or the trigger wire. I'll trying to get back in there and test these when I have time to pull everything back off to gain access. And try and figure out the circuits to the relay.

Right now this is happening once every 6-8 starts I'd guess.

Thanks for the tips

 

[Grenvilleter]

Just get in there with your multimeter and make sure there is 12 vdc on that small wire that goes to your starter when the key is turned to the start position.

Try moving the gear selector and confirm it always gets 12 vdc when gear selector is in neutral or park. Wiggle it a bit and cycle through the gears all the while confirming 12vdc is present when in neutral or park and is not present when in any other position. That will confirm your starter engagement circuitry is good or not.

As IBall mentioned, its possible the safety switch on the transmission linkage is out of adjustment preventing the 12vdc from telling your starter to engage on demand.

After that, recheck the large cable connection on your starter. It has to be one or the other unless you have a poor connection at the battery.

 

[PNW yota]

I haven't gotten a chance to do much diagnostically yet with a meter but I can say a couple findings.

Again I'm not finding a correlation with the park/neutral issue. I know it's not an official test but when it hasn't started it does allow me to remove the key, and when it doesn't want to let me remove the key (like I'm not in park) it will start.

I had borrowed a meter to test the relay and I'm waiting on my own from Amazon so once it arrives I'll do better testing.

 

[fblainen11]

For the problem with removing the key and the vehicle not thinking you are in park, try getting underneath and adjusting the gear selector rod and the connecting rod to the transmission. I changed out the bushings on my gear selector and had to remove the rod from the transmission the transmission connecting rod. When I put it back together I took up a little too much slack....after a month of my wife noticing she coulnt get the key out on occasion I readjusted it and haven't had trouble since. Hope this helps.

 

[PNW yota]

Also on a couple occasions I've turned the key over to start and held it there, and after about a second or two the starter engages.

I'm sure diagnostically this and my last post don't mean much, and the source could be any number of places but thought I'd put it out there.

thanks again for the help

 

[Kryptoroxx]

That could be a dirty connection on your battery. It happens every now and then to me when I need to clean the contacts.

 

[fblainen11]

I had trouble with what I thought was the alternator. Testing revealed it was fine. I was losing power while driving. Changed battery to new and still had some problems. Changed battery connectors and put new ones....haven't had trouble since.

 

[PNW yota]

That could be a dirty connection on your battery. It happens every now and then to me when I need to clean the contacts.

Again, brand new top of the line interstate battery. ALL my connections have been thoroughly gone through and filed down to good shiny metal, I used corrosion cleaner and battery terminal protector at the battery, and double checked all connections are tight.

I had trouble with what I thought was the alternator. Testing revealed it was fine. I was losing power while driving. Changed battery to new and still had some problems. Changed battery connectors and put new ones....haven't had trouble since.

Again I don't think this is my alternator. I don't lose power while driving and everything has power when the key is turned to ON. Also when it does decide to turn the engine over it's full force, not a weak crank at all.

 

[PNW yota]

I did some more poking around on the rig this afternoon and in the quiet of my garage, with the hood open and standing outside my rig I could hear the relay clicking when it wasn't starting.

I don't have a ton of experience (and I could have the order of operations wrong here) but I'd think this would rule out my key ignition system not sending signal, and would also mean it's not the park/neutral safety sensor getting in the way.

Again I could be wrong on that.

Multimeter won't be here for a few more days to officially start testing components.

EDIT: ha, never mind. Went to test my own theory and put it in reverse and tried starting and the relay clicked.

 

[nissanh]

What is the make of your re-manufactured starter?

I did some more poking around on the rig this afternoon and in the quiet of my garage, with the hood open and standing outside my rig I could hear the relay clicking when it wasn't starting.

I don't have a ton of experience (and I could have the order of operations wrong here) but I'd think this would rule out my key ignition system not sending signal, and would also mean it's not the park/neutral safety sensor getting in the way.

Again I could be wrong on that.

Multimeter won't be here for a few more days to officially start testing components.

EDIT: ha, never mind. Went to test my own theory and put it in reverse and tried starting and the relay clicked.

Did you replace the starter to solve this problem? Some remanufactured starters are worst than a 20 years OEM starter.

 

[PNW yota]

Did you replace the starter to solve this problem? Some remanufactured starters are worst than a 20 years OEM starter.

No, starter was removed, contacts, plunger and all bearings replaced. It was tested as well before re-install.

 

[PNW yota]

Finally got down under the rig again with a meter and tested the signal wire and power cable. With how intermittent the problem is, testing is tough so I did about 20 cycles to assess the problem.

Signal wire tested fine, only received juice when key was cycled to START.
Main power cable to the starter was hot all the time, even with the key completely off.
Tested the relay again for a couple dozen cycles and it seems fine.

Called the place where the starter was rebuilt, described what was happening and he is convinced the problem is not with the starter itself.

which is why I asked if he tested the "circuits" for the starter relay, not just the relay.
:thanks:

Could you tell me where the circuits are and a protocol for testing them?

OK, is the starter grounded, yes?
:hungry:

Doesn't the starter ground through the case to the engine block? I never saw a ground wire specifically for it.

 

[dozerfrelich]

Did they check the internal solenoid? I rebuilt mine besides the solenoid and it worked for a while then stopped working. It turns out the solenoid was fried .

 

[TheDurk]

How did you test the relay? Please be aware that clicking is no guarantee of a good relay. It just means it makes noise. (See attached.)

You know what I would do? Hitch a wire to the small lug on the starter and run it into the cab. Rig a test light you can look at every time you turn the key. This way you can really nail down if the problem is in the starter or not. (Assuming you have verified starter to battery cable is good and connection is tight.)