Starting issue... Crank and no start.

[the great him]

So for a while now I have had this issue where I will go to start the runner an it just cranks and cranks, almost like someone pulled the efi fuse. I can stop crank and try cranking again and still nothing. The only way I have found to get around this is turn the key all the way back off and try again, and boom it starts right up. Typically it does this after its been running and gotten up to operating temps and I shut it down and go to restart shortly afterwards say like getting gas or a quick run into a store to grab lunch or the likes, -short stops. The issue is becoming more and more frequent. When it first started it was really hot out and I was having overheating issues and so I figured it might be vapor lock or something. But I have ruled that out as the cause... I'm starting to think maybe a crank position sensor... Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

So for a while now I have had this issue where I will go to start the runner an it just cranks and cranks, almost like someone pulled the efi fuse. I can stop crank and try cranking again and still nothing. The only way I have found to get around this is turn the key all the way back off and try again, and boom it starts right up. Typically it does this after its been running and gotten up to operating temps and I shut it down and go to restart shortly afterwards say like getting gas or a quick run into a store to grab lunch or the likes, -short stops. The issue is becoming more and more frequent. When it first started it was really hot out and I was having overheating issues and so I figured it might be vapor lock or something. But I have ruled that out as the cause... I'm starting to think maybe a crank position sensor... Any thoughts or ideas?

It does sound spark related, Maybe this would help...

 

[LittleCaesar]

How clean is the IAC?

ECT? If they fall out of range, or producing false readings per se when hot, it won't start. Or at least it did on my Acura and on my brother's Accord. As preventative maintenance I change out my ECT sensor when changing out my O2 sensors.

Gas related? Can you hear the pump turn on? Next time pull the line off the FPR and see if gas dribbles out or you can smell it. I have never heard of one going bad on a 5vz, but age is catching up with our 3rd gens.

 

[the great him]

How clean is the IAC?

ECT? If they fall out of range, or producing false readings per se when hot, it won't start. Or at least it did on my Acura and on my brother's Accord. As preventative maintenance I change out my ECT sensor when changing out my O2 sensors.

Gas related? Can you hear the pump turn on? Next time pull the line off the FPR and see if gas dribbles out or you can smell it. I have never heard of one going bad on a 5vz, but age is catching up with our 3rd gens.

ect? im guessing you dont mean the same little guy whose button we all press down by the shifter(up in the center of the dash on 99 and newer), ie the trans shift point button? im at a loss for any other ect though...

fpr? again im not fallowing here, fuel pressure rail? thats all i can think of.

yeah age is catching up with us. i have almost 300k on my truck

 

[LittleCaesar]

Fuel pressure regulator - fpr.

ECT sensor is located in the lower intake manifold, just to the left of the front fuel rail jumper if one is looking into the engine bay from the front. Also called the coolant temp sensor. If it reads out of range, and usually only does when hot, then there is no fire.

If this happens to ya at home, I'd check for spark as well.

 

[Atrox Caeda]

Out of ridiculous retorts... maybe it's the starter? Just saying.

 

[Supra725]

i was having similar issues you were having.. it would take forever to get it started, I can hear my click when I turn the key.. but it would take a few tries to get her to turn over.. but sat time went by.. it had gotten worse.. it got to the point where it won't crank anymore..

I ended up replacing it with an reman denso from ebay for around $70 dollars.. which was a lot better than the dealer's $300.. or car quest's $200.. best part, no core fee..

after taking my old one out, I looked at the started contacts.. it was done.. could I have replaced it with just the contacts and plunger? probably.. but the parts were close to $60 dollars.. I might as well order an reman starter for $10 dollars more.. it make more sense..

on an side note though, if you do change out the starter.. go to the dealer and get the 2 bolts that goes with it.. mine was pretty much toasted once i got it out.. and I ran to every auto store + hardware store in town and the ones next to it.. no one has it in that length or pitch.. even fastenal didn't have the bolts.. is worth the extra $5 dollars for it.. I had to wait for them to get it from the other dealer cause mine was out of stock..

 

[KidVermicious]

Out of ridiculous retorts... maybe it's the starter? Just saying.

If it's cranking, it's not the starter.

Kid, I had this happen on a different truck several years back, intermittent crank-no-start when the motor was warm. It turned out to be a bad fuel cutoff relay that wasn't closing. No idea if that's your trouble here, but next time it won't start, crack your fuel line at the engine side of the filter and see if you've got fuel pressure. That might help narrow it down.

 

[02SE]

I'm confused, I thought you had mentioned in the past that you were a Tech at a BMW Dealership?

 

[straightpipe]

I had the same problem with my 97 limited. Replacing the ECT did the trick!

 

[the great him]

I'm confused, I thought you had mentioned in the past that you were a Tech at a BMW Dealership?

What's your point... I worked as a tech and I worked at a BMW dealer... I've been a tech at a couple different shops. Random issues that don't throw codes are always hard to diagnose.... That's why I came here to you guys. I figured maybe someone else has had this issue, and knows where to look and can point me in the right direction and save me some time chasing phantoms...

Are you so beyond asking for help to save some time? Yeah I could ask my father in-law as well but I try to let him have his weekends every now and again and not call him every time I get stumped. You got anything to add here constructively or... Cause I'm confused by your comment if so

 

[the great him]

Its not the starter, I just put a brand new one in like a month ago. Its cranking hard and I have plenty of power. If in shut the key all the way off and try again it instantly fires.

The problem is it does not always do it when I'm home... So pulling things apart or being able to test them is not always an option, especially when I don't have anyone with me to turn the key for me...

I was kinda thinking it might be the fuel pump taking a dump on me... Its oddly familiar to how my old w124 Benz used to act and a friends old Audi acted when the fuel pumps started dying. What leads me more to think its a sensor though is the quick turn of the key all the way off seams to fix the issue... Through its all electronic so I guess it could fix a fuel pump.

I guess it could also be the engine coolant temp sensor, though my temps are pretty cool now with a 160* thermostat and the dual fans. I hardly ever see over 200* except on the hottest days and under big loads with the ac on. Typically I'm around 180-190*

 

[TheDurk]

i was having similar issues you were having.. it would take forever to get it started, I can hear my click when I turn the key.. but it would take a few tries to get her to turn over.. but sat time went by.. it had gotten worse.. it got to the point where it won't crank anymore..

I ended up replacing it with an reman denso from ebay for around $70 dollars.. which was a lot better than the dealer's $300.. or car quest's $200.. best part, no core fee..

after taking my old one out, I looked at the started contacts.. it was done.. could I have replaced it with just the contacts and plunger? probably.. but the parts were close to $60 dollars.. I might as well order an reman starter for $10 dollars more.. it make more sense..

on an side note though, if you do change out the starter.. go to the dealer and get the 2 bolts that goes with it.. mine was pretty much toasted once i got it out.. and I ran to every auto store + hardware store in town and the ones next to it.. no one has it in that length or pitch.. even fastenal didn't have the bolts.. is worth the extra $5 dollars for it.. I had to wait for them to get it from the other dealer cause mine was out of stock..

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. A factory Denso with new contacts will last FAR FAR longer than a new cheapo reman. Bad move. Change the contacts and keep that Denso ready to go. You'll be needing it. Really lucky you got to keep your old one.

[MENTION=49442]thekid[/MENTION] Do you remember [MENTION=52371]Gerdo[/MENTION]'s thread from 2011? Long, long story short, his "long crank when hot" issue was fixed by a new fuel pump:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/90760-engine-cranks-3-times-too-long.html

Please read it and see if his story matches yours.

 

[nissanh]

Kid,

Have you check the spark on all 6 cylinders when the engine is hot (when it turns but no start)?

 

[02SE]

What's your point... I worked as a tech and I worked at a BMW dealer... I've been a tech at a couple different shops.

Well, just that you should know better than most that an IC gas engine requires three things to run. Air, Fuel, and Spark.

Determine which is missing, and then diagnose why.

I just assumed that you as well as anyone would know that all people on this forum can do without having your vehicle in front of them to test, is guess.



I will throw out a random and obscure guess too though: I once had a car come in that would crank but rarely start. If it did start, it would run poorly. It turned out some type of rodent had filled the air intake with dog food. The engine was being starved for air.

 

[BoostedRNR]

We had a very similar starting problem on ours. It ended up being a relay that feeds the ecm power. It's been way too long to remember, but i think it was under the hood, just in the fuse location. We switched it with another relay and the problem was fixed.

 

[the great him]

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. A factory Denso with new contacts will last FAR FAR longer than a new cheapo reman. Bad move. Change the contacts and keep that Denso ready to go. You'll be needing it. Really lucky you got to keep your old one.

[MENTION=49442]thekid[/MENTION] Do you remember [MENTION=52371]Gerdo[/MENTION]'s thread from 2011? Long, long story short, his "long crank when hot" issue was fixed by a new fuel pump:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/90760-engine-cranks-3-times-too-long.html

Please read it and see if his story matches yours.

yeah i have read his issue... mine is not a hot start issue, its a random issue. i thought at first it was a hot start issue, but then yesterday morning i went to go start it and it took forever(also killed my cycling the key all the way off theory too). then after that for the rest of the day i had no starting issues at all

Kid,

Have you check the spark on all 6 cylinders when the engine is hot (when it turns but no start)?

i have not, the problem is, this will do it randomly, and it would be hard to do so...

Well, just that you should know better than most that an IC gas engine requires three things to run. Air, Fuel, and Spark.

Determine which is missing, and then diagnose why.

I just assumed that you as well as anyone would know that all people on this forum can do without having your vehicle in front of them to test, is guess.



I will throw out a random and obscure guess too though: I once had a car come in that would crank but rarely start. If it did start, it would run poorly. It turned out some type of rodent had filled the air intake with dog food. The engine was being starved for air.

well i was mainly trying to see if anyone here had the same issues, or could point me in a direction. yeah i know it needs the 3... but its rather hard to when there are so many things that are contributing factors to those 3, especially when it only does this randomly, and typically when i have something to do or somewhere to go... and i dont have time to start tearing into it to check this or check that ect... you know what i mean. its not like im sitting in a shop with all the tools and diagnostic equipment at my disposal when this happens. -and no its not the air box or intake system...

-sorry if i seamed like i was lashing out at you, i was not sure where you were going with that first post and kinda had a wtf moment.

We had a very similar starting problem on ours. It ended up being a relay that feeds the ecm power. It's been way too long to remember, but i think it was under the hood, just in the fuse location. We switched it with another relay and the problem was fixed.

thanks, ill check into this. this gives me a place to start.

 

[the great him]

ok so some more info on my truck.

i am meticulous on maintenance especially preventive maintenance. in the last 6k mi i have replaces all the coil packs and plug wires as well as plugs with denso coil packs from the dealer, denso plugs from the dealer, and sumitomo wires from the dealer. new air filter, i only run cheveron or arco/pb gas, never get gas when their tanks are being filled from the the transfer truck... i should probably replace the fuel filter, being as though i have about 60k on that. the starter is brand new, maybe 2k on that(mid july), its a denso, bought it from the dealer as well.



and friday i had a strange occurrence that i thought noting of until now; i had just started the runner and was backing out of a parking spot, when it died on me as i was rolling back, and it did the not want to start on me trick.

once the truck is running it runs great, plenty of power, no misses, no hesitation. so this does not seam like an air issue, but either spark or fuel. im gonna check the relays to the ECM and ill probably check fuel pressure. maybe ill build a fuel pressure gauge i can stick on the fuel rail and leave there till it happens again and see what i get...

 

[Ducmonsta]

Borrow a scan tool and monitor the ECT. It will tell you if you have a problem there. Heck, it may have already stored a pending code. I think it was a po115 or po116, if I remember correctly. I'm guessing you don't have a scan gauge either.

Next time it happens, dont turn the key off. Crawl under and bang on the fuel tank and attempt to restart. Or if you're lucky and you have someone with you, crawl under the fuel tank and listen for the pump. In fact, you should do this with someone while the pump is operational so that both of you can hear what it sounds like. So when the time comes, you'll know what to listen for.

 

[LittleCaesar]

You also may want to consider the ignition switch as being faulty, or on its last leg.

My uncle's 2000 Corvette had an ignition switch problem where it would start, but not when it was hot and when he did get it started, it would roll about 10ft then die. The ECU didn't read the key as being in the ignition so it would shut everything down for safety concerns. I don't know if our 4runners are the same, or similar in kind.