Starting to freak out: Loose front end

[skiwindjunkie]

I may be blonde. I may not know auto mechanics. But...I am definitely not stupid and I KNOW MY Frikin 4RUNNER. I am on the crazy side but apart from that I have keen instincts. So the annoying problem is that my 03 SR5 with 125K has a loose front end. The steering is floaty. Over bumps it is white knuckle waiting for the over steer. Its a wavy feeling. The term that best describes my symptoms is: "Bump Steer". I thought it was the snow tires. Nokian Hakka R. I have been to two stealers. Both say it is the tires. Soft sidewall...blah, blah..blah. Front end is tight they say, go away. My tire guy...who believes me. And is willing to swap out for a different winter tire for free. But my instinct is that I can not be the only person in North America who thinks the Hakka R sucks. So to find out, my tire guy put on my favorite tires of all. He put back on my Ripping HT SUV Nokians. I was not having this feeling this summer. However the SAME FEELING still is there with the balmer tires! Of course the sidewall felt superior on corners and you can tell the difference. However the sway syndrome still exists. And the tire sounds really loud still. Not that much different from my winter treads. In the last year my girl has had these repairs: Two Alignments; Front Axle Boot Torn was replaced left front axle assembly; Front & Rear Rotors/Brakes/Calipers; Monroe front Struts/Rear Shocks; FT Sway Bar Frame Bushing/link Kit(got the burly ones, I think they are poly)/Alignment; Idler pulleys all three; Trans line and assembly. A few things to note: I have complained since 2009 that in cold temps when the car sits and then driven, a loud hum or noise from RF wheel on rotation and then goes away after 10 minutes of driving. It has to be cold out or the car has to sit for days. NO solution. At 85K my steering shaft seized and they replaced the shaft sub assembly. I hit a deer in 2005 with left front end body damage and hit another deer in 2009 with no damage because I had a Westin rack installed on the front after the 2005 hit. I am told the weight of the rack would not cause the symptom.

So, not being a mechanic I did research the symptoms. Here is what I found:


If the symptom is excessive play in your steering, my 2003-2009 T4R Haynes manual troubleshoots the following:

1. Loose wheel bearings
2. Excessive wear in suspension bushings: play in the rack bushings
3. Steering gear worn
4. Incorrect wheel alignment-NO
5. Steering gear mounting bolts loose
6. Worn tie-rod ends.

You could make sure that your Lower Control Arm bolts are nice and tight. My steering felt really loose goes over bumps but was fine on the smooth stuff but some blue Lock-tite and a breaker bar solved that

and the steering stabilizers were external, shock systems that absorbed or reduced the "bumpsteer". They were clearly seen by looking under the truck or looking at the truck from the front, but i have never seen such a thing on a taco or 4runner, thats why i assumed they were never made. Didn't realize they could exist inside the rack.

Front Suspension Looseness
A vehicle that has bad front wheel bearings will often exhibit symptoms of having loose front suspension parts, including symptoms of tie-rod end looseness or control arm bushing looseness. When tie-rod ends and control arm bushings wear excessively, they can produce similar symptoms to that of bad wheel bearings: tire/wheel looseness and/or vehicle front-end sway. Many times bad wheel bearings, especially bad bearings that produce no noise, are diagnosed after eliminating any vehicle front suspension abnormalities as the cause of any suspicious wheel/tire looseness or front-end sway.

One thing my tire guy sees and is not sure it is correct is the sloping of my control arms in the front. If you look at the axle from the front it is straight. The control arms are not, the arms drop in like the suspension is sinking. He was thinking bad coil springs. Are the control arms suppose to be straight?

I have never had the bearings replaced and am thinking that. But wouldn't anyone notice or check the bearings with the described symptoms????

Any votes on what I should do next. I am out almost $500 fiddling with this very unsafe feeling in my favorite car ever.

Thanks!

 

[Sungod]

Let's walk through this by starting with the most valuable diagnostic tool your alignment. Almost any ride control symptom should show up in a proper alignment inspection. They should check for any loose or worn parts. This includes ball joint, tie rod, control arm, etc. Anything loose means the alignment stops there until the part is replaced. Saying that you hear a noise from the front end could be classic wheel bearings. That again should be detected during alignment inspection.

Next are the specs them self. In this case you are really concerned with caster. You want to be on the high end of the spec. Being closer to zero make your steering lighter and bump steer more noticeable. It also makes tracking horrible because you tend to follow every groove in the road.

When that is good then you can look at your shock and springs. You have added weight to the front end with your bumper. That adds a lot of weight that extends it beyond the front wheels. Who ever said that adding it would have no impact because of the extra weight is wrong. Remember when you were a kid and you did the trick where you held a book with your arms extended and you could only hold it half as long as the kid holding the book in close? Same principal here. That is when you need to look at upgrading the springs to match the added weight or else you are subject to added sway.

From there you have your tires. Off brand tires have their issues, but I wouldn't expect to see various off brand tires cause the same issue. The real factor in tires is air pressure. Keeping them at the max psi will result in the best handling and road feel. Another possibility that could cause the issue that you have at start up after sitting for a long period of time is the tires. Tires, especially tires with nylon, can flat spot from sitting and it can take a few miles to warm up and smooth out.

The last component that could be a problem is the rack and power steering. Since you have a rack and pinion steering configuration you don’t have a steering gear (or steering box) so no need to worry about a steering box like are on older American cars and trucks. A bad and sloppy rack can cause some wandering issue. This getting back to your alignment check it should be identified during the parts check. Having steering parts replace, it would be an area to look into. What caused your steering shaft to seize

From reading your detail, I would say that it could be a combination of issues, but I would focus on a good alignment check and followed closely by springs. The alignment check should be the place to start. Most places will check for free.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Let's walk through this by starting with the most valuable diagnostic tool your alignment. Almost any ride control symptom should show up in a proper alignment inspection. They should check for any loose or worn parts. This includes ball joint, tie rod, control arm, etc. Anything loose means the alignment stops there until the part is replaced. Saying that you hear a noise from the front end could be classic wheel bearings. That again should be detected during alignment inspection.
They said all looked good.

Next are the specs them self. In this case you are really concerned with caster. You want to be on the high end of the spec. Being closer to zero make your steering lighter and bump steer more noticeable. It also makes tracking horrible because you tend to follow every groove in the road.
Alignment was checked. Only one front left tire was out less then 1/2 degree.

When that is good then you can look at your shock and springs. You have added weight to the front end with your bumper. That adds a lot of weight that extends it beyond the front wheels. Who ever said that adding it would have no impact because of the extra weight is wrong. Remember when you were a kid and you did the trick where you held a book with your arms extended and you could only hold it half as long as the kid holding the book in close? Same principal here. That is when you need to look at upgrading the springs to match the added weight or else you are subject to added sway. that is what I thought but both dealers said that would not cause the symptoms.

From there you have your tires. Off brand tires have their issues, but I wouldn't expect to see various off brand tires cause the same issue. The real factor in tires is air pressure. Keeping them at the max psi will result in the best handling and road feel. Another possibility that could cause the issue that you have at start up after sitting for a long period of time is the tires. Tires, especially tires with nylon, can flat spot from sitting and it can take a few miles to warm up and smooth out. Ok

The last component that could be a problem is the rack and power steering. Since you have a rack and pinion steering configuration you don’t have a steering gear (or steering box) so no need to worry about a steering box like are on older American cars and trucks. A bad and sloppy rack can cause some wandering issue. This getting back to your alignment check it should be identified during the parts check. Having steering parts replace, it would be an area to look into. What caused your steering shaft to seize I don't know? The car just would not turn when I turned the wheel and that is what they said was wrong.

From reading your detail, I would say that it could be a combination of issues, but I would focus on a good alignment check and followed closely by springs. The alignment check should be the place to start. Most places will check for free.

I want to have my tire guy measure the springs to the data specs for my car. I am sure he can find out what they would be? To see if in fact the springs are worn and to replace with heavy duty ones for the extra weight. Also would the overly weighted springs cause the tires to be loud? Also is it ok that the control arms are pointing downward and not parallel to the axle like in the Tundra I saw to compare (even tho the suspension systems are way different?)

Thanks for your advice.

 

[settytb]

The stock runners the control arms sag a bit. A lift helps that... I would guess tie rod ends. Got mine changed on another vehicle and it was night and day difference definitely tightened it up. try upping the tire pressure some. Try running like 40 psi rather than 35 or so. Made a huge difference when i went up tire size. I would try those first they are relatively easy. Good luck.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Ok. So this is what I am going to do.
I am going to have my tire guy replace the tie rod ends, about 100$ plus labor.
Install new aftermarket springs. They are made by Moog.
They run around 160$ plus labor.
Should I get the ones made for the V8 since I have a Westin Rack on the front?
My runner is a V6 and they have those coils too.

I hope all this works!
I already run my winter tires at 40psi. It made a huge difference in handling.
I am going to drop it to 38psi as the snow is coming!

Thanks. I love this site.

 

[Sungod]

Why are you replacing your tie rod ends? are they bad? $100 is a lot for a tie rod end. About double what they should run. You are talking only outers, right?

Regardless of the tie rod ends, you are still going to need to have it aligned once the springs are replaced. Make sure you get as close to the max of the spec. I don't know if it is the same for the v6, but on the v8 it is 2.5-4.0 degrees. You want to be closer to 4 than 2.5.

As for the springs, I would stick with the v6 coils unless you plan to add something like an ARB bumper or a winch. You will probably sit way to high. Springs support the weight. Your shocks stop them from oscillating.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Why are you replacing your tie rod ends? are they bad? $100 is a lot for a tie rod end. About double what they should run. You are talking only outers, right?
Yup, no they are not that bad but I want to keep my car for a long time until the rust eats her or worse. So while they are in there changing the coils I thought just do it and it just might help the sway. My tire guy said to wait till he gets in there when he does the coil. He kinda doesn't think they are bad....but I want it to handle dammit.

Regardless of the tie rod ends, you are still going to need to have it aligned once the springs are replaced. Make sure you get as close to the max of the spec. I don't know if it is the same for the v6, but on the v8 it is 2.5-4.0 degrees. You want to be closer to 4 than 2.5. I told him you mentioned that. I know it will be aligned

As for the springs, I would stick with the v6 coils unless you plan to add something like an ARB bumper or a winch. You will probably sit way to high. Springs support the weight. Your shocks stop them from oscillating.

He agrees too v6

If the 5th generations weren't so ugly I just get a new 4runner. But I have upgrades to my 4th and know exactly what I have invested and can't seem to stop spoiling her.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Jeez she is rusty. Holding off on my winter undercarriage oiling for the techs. Ugh. Anything look weird? I am considering a level kit to get the control arms up and better handling.

 

[settytb]

I have the daystar 2.5/1.5 and my cv's are about perfectly level. If that helps. good luck! hope the tie rod ends fix it. 100 bucks for them installed isn't that bad if you are doing both sides.

 

[Sungod]

Looks like you need a healthy does of POR before that rust gets out of control. I guess that is just something you have to live with that far north.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

I have it oiled twice a year. Its hard when you ocean salt in the summer and road salt in the winter. Not much you can do. My VW's all looked the same too.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

I am going to have installed new coil springs for V6 by Moog and possible tie rod ends soon. Is it worth having a spacer or leveling kit put in just the front to even out the rake? I am wondering because of her age at 122K miles the ride is stupid floaty. Will this make the cornering tighter? I really don't want her to look way off the ground but do you think a spacer would help in performance? I have 265/70/R16 tires. I have played with pressures. 35psi summer; 38 psi winters works best. I was reading on adding what they call a Toytec or Cornfed 1/2" spacer which gives you a total of 1 inch of lift on the front. I hadn't planned on doing anything to the back. I just thought it would corner better. I don't tow anything. I do not off road. The car gets loaded pretty heavy with sports gear and mostly highway miles. Everything has been looked over by three shops. They all see nothing. Except one guy thinks it is the coils gone. He said my front suspension looks droopy.

1. Loose wheel bearings-nope
2. Excessive wear in suspension bushings-new i think at 112K and urethane.
3. Steering gear worn-? not sure
4. Incorrect wheel alignment-nope
5. Steering gear mounting bolts loose-? not sure
6. Worn tie-rod ends.-they say no but my coil installer will determine when he gets in there. I say just do it anyway for $100 bucks.
7. Ball joints-nope

I have no leaks in shocks/struts. They are Monroe Reflex front and rear with Moog FT say bar frame bushings/kit done at 112K

Even put back on summer tires and still loose steering and car jumps over bumps like bump steer and you have to over correct the wheel. Scary.

So if this doesn't work then I must have a worn rack or something in the steering column?

In 2009 at 85K my steering shaft seized. They replaced the shaft. Don't know why that happened. But could that be something that would cause the symptoms? Something loose in there? One post I read said something about removing some of the slack from the steering sliding yoke to tighten things up? I don't have any knocking sounds that I am aware of though?

So should I put a spacer in the front when I get the coils/tie rods replaced and also the alignment too? If so what type and where should I order it?
Will this help the sway and lower front end. Even more on my runner because I have the added weight of a Westin rack on the front.

I really need to get this figured out. My car needs her undercarriage oiled bad and I have been holding off for the auto techs sake.

Any suggestions?
TY!

 

[sonerick]

If you're replacing springs, replace with something that will give the front a little lift and compensate for the Westin rack. No need to add spacers too. I'd recommend OME/Toytec coils.

Maybe the floaty ride is due to the Monroe shocks... Haven't heard much about them, but maybe their valving is not suited to your tastes. Maybe try a set of Bilstein or OME shocks in addition to the new springs. Many people have used these with good results.

Also, if your ride is "stupid floaty" then there's probably something going on. Many people here have well over 120k miles and their trucks still drive like new. And when you say "car jumps over bumps like bump steer and you have to over correct the wheel," that indicates to me that your shocks aren't dampening the spring properly.

 

[chaz]

maybe FJ coils & bilstein 5100's might help.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Coils are Moogs. I think these are the only one's he could get through Vianor. MOOG COIL SPRINGS, SET OF 2 -- Constant-rate springs; Made from heat treated alloy steel for better response and guaranteed resistance to sagging; Built to replace original springs of vehicle to restore its superb handling, ride height and body sway; Equipped with protective urethane tube to prevent metal on metal clash of the springs.

Bilstein's are part #188401 They are the heavy-duty shocks and struts provide improved handling and stability without sacrificing ride comfort. They offer super damping ability that makes them ideal for occasional off-road heavy hauling use, while maintaining an exceptional street ride. I think this is all my guy could get. I do not off road and do not haul but do load lots of sports gear inside and on top of rack. Plus the Westin rack on front.

Or do you think I should just order the Bilstein 5100 Series shocks feature a monotube design for cooler, more efficient operation and longer life. They have the largest available piston diameter, providing superior handling and performance. The 5100s' patented digressive valving instantly reacts to changing surface conditions for maximum comfort and control on and off the road. These shocks also have split compression and rebound valving tuned for each specific application. I can get them myself and have him put them on? Will the 5100 be way better?Or will the Heavy Duty ones be fine?

Does anyone think I need to add a spacer to level out the rake a bit? What the heck to I order? Where does it go? On the base of the strut?

Sorry I'm clueless about parts.

 

[sonerick]

You can find springs, shocks, spacers, and other stuff for your 4runner here: http://www.toyteclifts.com/. I have ordered from them, and they provide excellent customer service.

Either of the Bilsteins are good choices and will give you improved ride quality with stock-height spring like the Moogs. The advantage of the Bilstein 5100s is that they allow you to adjust the spring perch on the front shocks to provide up to 2.5" of lift. This would be perfect to counteract some of the sagging due to your westin rack, no spacer needed.

Alternatively, if you went with the Bilstein HD shocks, you could add a small spacer to the front to level things out a bit. Spacers are typically installed at the top of the spring.

BTW, no need to copy and paste manufacturer's info about the products on a forum like this. There's quite a number of threads that discuss real-world applications and results using these parts. Check out the sticky at the top of the 4th Gen forum titled "4th Gen Suspension Options/FAQ." Lots of good info there, people have worked hard putting that information together.

 

[skiwindjunkie]

Thanks Sonerick.

I made a video of my ride right now. You can see it at:
Untitled on Vimeo
Ignore my sound effects they are from serious frustration!
The ride is so harsh that my left trap and shoulder is cooked from holding on the the wheel so tight!

I just ordered the front Bilstein Height adjustable front and matching 5100 Rear shocks. My tire guy must hate me by now because I had him send back the HD Bilstein's. I wish I had just ordered all the parts myself since my tire guy is not a dealer for certain items. I wish I had got the coils recommended from Toytec but I just can't ask him to return the Moog coils he got for the V6. So I am going to go with those coils and the shocks. I am also having him make sure my tie rod ends are ok when he is doing all this work.

I had planned on having him set the front shock to .85 for a 1 inch lift. Is this a good start? Will the Moog coils already give the front lift alone? Would the adjustment of the shock be good at nothing or at what level keeping in mind my Westin rack weight on the front end. I am not looking to off road or haul but I want the truck to corner better and handle better, so the ride is smooth and the back end will hold better and not slide out.

Also alignment specs? I know my guy will go with standard specs. Toytec says: Yes, you will need an alignment after the lift install. We recommend the Camber be set to zero and toe .04 degrees. But this is with a lift. I am just taking some of the rake out. No lift in the rear just new shocks. So what is the best alignment for her accounting for my rack and crown in the road? Standard specs ok?

Now that I look back on this I am thinking that it was in fact the Monroe Reflex shocks. I had them replaced in April of 2011. I was on and island all summer and did nothing but drive flat roads and highways. It was once I got to the mountains, put my snow tires on and driving in much harder roads was when I felt afraid! So maybe I just never felt the difference in shocks from the OEM's until now? Stupid.

My tire guy is going to try and get me a credit on the Monroe's for me. I hope he can as it was $440 for front and rears with $170 labor=$607 :redbrick: Ugh. He is a straight shooter buy not as 4Runner savvy as the people on this site.

4R.org is a valuable tool and even though I don't understand a lot of what is said sometimes it makes me feel like my back is covered. Thanks!

Wish me luck!

 

[skiwindjunkie]

:cry2: :cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
Update. All psyched to get my car. I get to it and she looks like she's going to have a nose bleed. Front end is sitting like 2 1/2 inches higher then the front. I was like...shoot me now.
I said did you set my Bilstein 5100 too high? (.85) is what I wanted it at. He said he had to set the shocks all the way down, yet it still is pointing straight up. :rant:
I am polite at this point. I won't get into all the discussion. He just doesn't really do suspensions. And now I read Bilsteins site saying: have a qualified suspension mechanic install the shocks:frisky: However, I had to take the car. I am getting high beam flicks from oncoming cars and I have to ride far back from the cars in front of me at night as my lights are shooting for the stars. At this point I am kinds of laughing about it. Its also driving with a weird noise on rotation yet not as much when it is in 4wd. I am worried that it could of caused damage to: ball joints, CV joints, drive line or swaybar components....Another...thread.:boink:
So I said, I thought the moogs were an OEM replacement for the V6? He said it was listed as so. I researched it and I have Moog Part: MO81088 which is for the V8. My Moog part should of been: MO81090. Can't find any info on it. Is it higher or heavier springs so it sits higher? Crap.
Tomorrow, off the Moog springs go, old OEM stock springs back in.
More research says the Bilstein's are 1/2” to 3/4” longer front and rear, depending on application, than the O.E. shocks they replace. I'm OK with that. Then setting the fronts to .85 would make my car level? Right? So it must be the coils and the that are bumping it 2 1/2 inches higher? I am wondering if I should leave the Bilsteins flat in the front? I was an idiot and did not measure the before rake with the OEM coils and Monroe reflex shocks on prior. The funny thing is besides the reverse rake the car handles GREAT!:biggrin2:
I never wanted the lift, just performance handling and a little less rake to achieve that. It will be interesting to see if in fact it was the coil springs or the Monroe shocks that is the culprit for the mishandling? My gut says it was the shocks. Stay tuned

 

[skiwindjunkie]

I think i know whats wrong. I found the specs for both the moog coils. The V8 is ONLY .375/ 3/8 higher. So then I am thinking whats wrong with the shocks? Contacted Bilstein headquarters. They say the seat or perch springs might be upside down. I find a diagram online and went under the truck to look. Sure as heck the cup is facing up and not down. Hence the lift!!!!!!!!!!!! Hope its it. Bringing it back today.

 

[krupnation]

hahahahaahah, holy schnikey's man. That sucks! Should've installed the Billie's yourself, it's not that hard and only takes a few hours with some hand tools and beer (of course, air tools will speed up the process). I can't believe he installed the perch upside down! It's almost impossilbe to do that as the spring doesn't sit on it flush if it's upside down (or line up with the little "notch"). You'd think after he finished it all up and took a look at everything that he'd think something was wrong?

Hope you get everything figured out.