Steering wheel vibration Poll
- Thread starter WindomEarles
- Start date
harper7
Senior Member
This is about the 5th or 6th thread on it over here on the 5th gen side and plenty more over on the other 4runner ,FJ and Taco forums for years so if we ever come up with a definite fix....then sticky it.Seems different fixes are all over the charts.
Here's a couple of the latest ones over on the FJ forum .....Shakey FJ *FIXED* - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum
AT LAST, STEERING WHEEL SHAKE GONE.....almost - Toyota FJ Cruiser Forum
IMO ...Toyota truck wheels, as that's what you are balancing ,not just the tire ,are just hard to balance and takes a experienced technician as the machine is only as good as the person running it. This is nothing new on Toyota trucks for years with balance problems and seems like all kinds of "badgeman on the grassy knoll" theories .Seems to me most have oem wheels which are hub centric . We need to start looking at common denominators. Hub centric wheels? Low Caster angles can make steering looser and shimmy like a bad wheel on a shopping cart? Your dealer should at least put some on from another truck on his lot that is known for a fact not to have the problem and try that to rule out your rims aren't bad is the first thing I would have done.
Knock on the balancing wood as I'm getting new 34 inch KM2 tires put on tomorrow morning. I'll see what special adapter they use as they did tell me they had some expensive special adapter,I just forget the name of it. 7th or 8th set of tires I've had and only time I had a balance problem is when I had some put on at another tire shop with kids working there because my regular Discount Tire was slammed.Learned my lesson and next day took it it my Discount tire and they balanced no problem as they know what they are doing.Now in saying that ,I've had some that were out a little at a certain speed and I felt it thru the steering wheel and is the nature of the beast when dealing with big azz truck AT and Mud tires. As long as it's only at one speed,let's say 55mph ........then, I can't drive 55.
1engineer
Moderator
Ok, I have read your report on what has happened to date.
Sadly, there will be no math here just logic. First let's talk about what can cause a steering wheel to wobble at speed on a new vehicle:
1. Tires
2. Wheels
3. Steering components
4. Any other rotating mass (brake discs, axles, transmission, etc)
5. Suspension components
6. Environmental factors such as types of roads, temperatures and such.
I think this list pretty much covers it. If I were you I would start with the most likely culprits first, which would be tires, wheels and road conditions. If your vehicle was older with a lot of miles I would look at the other items listed but for now start with the most likely causes.
Most of the time (most, not all) when you have a vibration in the steering wheel this signifies the front of your vehicle doing something. If the vibration is in the seat this could mean the cause is in the rear of the vehicle. This is a rule of thumb that I have observed to work only most of the time, not all the time.
You have apparently only worked with your dealer and that is fine. It sounds like they have been willing to help and try a few things to fix your problem. I personally would follow Harper's advice and get them to put a new set of wheels on there and see if it cured the problem. If you eventually get no satisfaction from the dealer then you have to go elsewhere and bill your dealer. Sometimes a new shop brings better or different people and ideas.
There is no mystery on steering wheel vibration on a new vehicle. Most of the time it is the tires. When it is not the tires, it is the wheels. In a very few cases it could be something else, like an axle or something. The way you describe it though as being intermittent it has to be wheels or tires and this is why: If it were an axle or brake disc or something like that the problem would be continuous or at least at a certain speed every time so I would save that for when all else fails. Tires (and of course wheels) contrary to popular belief, do not rotate at the same speed during normal driving and sometimes they could interact with the other tires and cause a vibration if something is bent or out of round (non concentric lol).
Good luck and hopefully your dealer will get it resolved. If not do not be afraid to take it somewhere else and bill your dealer. I would experiment some and drive it on different surfaces (new concrete, old pavement, etc) and see if the surface or speed cause the shake to get worse or better. The more information you have the easier it is to troubleshoot.
Edit: Have they checked your alignment? I would have them check that too.
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brockeverly
New member
I'm on Duratracs
No differentiation between stock and modified vehicles makes this a very messy discussion. Tire and suspension mods will invite wobble issues and recent gen toyotas are notoriously susceptible (Taco boards went nuts over this issue). Stock vehicle owners need look no further than thier tires IMO (replace or rebalance multiple times till they get it right). Modified truck owners probably best to accept some minor wobble issues or revert back to stock.
I have posted in another thread as well, but I have 2012 Trail with KDSS with less than 3,000 miles. I have already had an alignment and replaced the tires with Michelin LTX AT/2. The vibration is better, and gone at times altogether, but does still come and go.
Has anyone seen that Toyota posted a bulletin for the Lexus GX on steering vibration? It seems to document our exact symptoms, and the fix appears rather involved. I wonder if Toyota will release this for the 4Runner?
I will try to post the doc shortly.
Has anyone seen that Toyota posted a bulletin for the Lexus GX on steering vibration? It seems to document our exact symptoms, and the fix appears rather involved. I wonder if Toyota will release this for the 4Runner?
I will try to post the doc shortly.
Jesse1983
5th Gen Moderator
yup
almost 60% of people who responded to your poll don't have this issue. As Harper said, sticky when there is a fix.
maddogusmc said:
I find this humorous at best. Do mechanics/techs really expect us to believe this stuff? I assume some people buy these excuses because he's probably used a line similiar to this. I mean you've got an issue that hasn't "healed itself" in 3859 miles, yet he expects you to believe in the next 1141 miles the Toyota gods are going to strike health into your vehicle. And mechanics/techs wonder why people don't trust them.
UPDATE: According to my service writer: Service manager and the Toyota engineer drove my vehicle and were able to replicate the issue. The writer also said they "drove a new one off the lot and it did the same thing." I told him, well they both have issues then. He says "The engineer says it's normal for all of these vehicles since the other new one did it too." Service writer then asks me to "Give him a good grade when the survey somes out as anything less than an A is failing for me." OK, my vehicle is still exhibiting the same issues as my initial complaint and you want me to give you an A? Sure thing, I'll get right on that.
Apparently there are currently 34 (according to current poll) vehicles without vibrations that, according to the almighty engineer, are "broke." You who don't have vibes--you know who you are--need to go to Toyota to get vibrations installed on your truck.
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1engineer
Moderator
I didn't say anything earlier when I read "Toyota Engineer" in your post. I might be wrong, but you probably had a "Toyota District Rep" drive your truck. These are the actual "Toyota" employees who go to dealers within a small region and take care of issues and such. He could have went to school to be an engineer but my bet is on business or finance as this is more their field. Chances of him being an engineer hired by Toyota to go to dealerships and work on customer complaints = slim. I know a few of them and they are NOT engineers lol but they do good work helping their dealers. Quintin could chime in as he is an engineer who works for Toyota and a good mountain biker to boot! Quintin?
Here is my story....
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/68913-what-tires-your-limited.html
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/68913-what-tires-your-limited.html
WindomEarles
New member
do the 4runner and the GX460 share any similarities? I believe the FJ cruiser has the same frame as the 4runner.
I'm printing this and the haweke adapter one for the dealer tomorrow.
I think you're probably right, even though my invoice/repair sheet states Field Service Engineer (FSE)...and the service writer said he was such. After what happened this afternoon, I'm thinking his "FTE" title is a crock for what he did, or more accurately, didn't do. I'm not knocking the Engineering field...I know a few damn good ones and a bunch of clowns that shouldn't be allowed to use pencils.
brockeverly
New member
The wobble doesn't bother me in the slightest. After experiencing the Ford SuperDuty death wobble at 65 with a 10000# trailer on, I will never complain about the wobble my 4r has. That damn truck would REGULARLY launch coffee cups out of the cup holders. Only way to stop it was slow down to about 30mph, that is why it is gone.
Ford F-250 "Death Wobble" - YouTube
^This is a wobble worth complaining about ^
UPDATE: As previously writen above, a Toyota "Field Service Engineer" and the service manager drove the T4R and were able to replicate the shimmy. On the invoice it states, and I quote verbatim:
"FSE performed inpection--verified concern. Drove comparison vehicle (VIN JTEBU5JR6C5100730 MILES 4) Comparison vehicle performed identical. Concern is a normal characteristic of this vehicle. No repairs recommended.
Ok, the FSE wizard :witch:drives it and because he is so knowledgeable, he is able to diagnose there is no problem in a 6 mile drive--mind you it's probably 1.5 miles of surface roads each way to get to the freeway, so in 3 miles of evaulation, there is "no problem."
This about set me off. I requested to the service writer that we talk with the wizard and the service manager. The wizard is gone...probably out fixing blown engines and twisted drivelines by uttering the words "Normal characteristic...no repairs recommended." The service manager was apparently "out to lunch" at 4pm when they close at 6pm...yeah right.
I speak with the service manager and ask him questions he didn't have very good answers to. This is a basic jist of the conversation
-So what you're telling me here is I've got a shimmy which the service writer and you initially agreed was a problem, correct? Service Manager, "Yes."
-You guys did a balance and the problem was still there, so you called Toyota who agreed there is a problem and they said to do a GPS 9700 balance, right? Service Manager, "Yes"
-Ok, so you've confirmed there is a problem with Toyota backing you telling you to take further action, you do this, the problem still exists. Now the FSE comes and drives my truck for 6 miles, verifies the issue on mine and another truck, determines and proclaims this is Normal, right? Service Manager, "Well, yeah, they all do that."
-Do you have any documentation from Toyota saying this is normal, because I looked in my owners manual and couldn't find anything saying intermittent steering wheel shiimmy at 60-70 mpg is normal." Service Manager, "Well, yours does it and the brand new one on the lot did it too."
-I can assure you they all don't as my mother in law has one, same year, make, model and hers is smooth. Should I tell her something is wrong as hers doesn't have the normal vibration which is a characteristic of the vehicle? Service Manager, "Well, hers might do it."
-Ok, so if they all 4Runners do this, why does Toyota even bother to balance the tires from the factory if a shimmy is an inherent and desired design charateristic which I think any reasonable person would disagree with? I feel and it's apparant I'm getting brushed off here. Service Manager, "Well, there isn't a repair available that Toyota is telling us to do?"
-Ok, I understand your position, but I have a gut feeling things might not have been done correctly or looked at thoroughly, so hear me out.
-Did the FSE :witch: personally check or oversee an alignment check to rule that out? Service Manager, "Well, um, no, it's the tires vibrating and we did an aligment a while back."
-You're right, you stated you checked the alignment, but I never saw a printout sheet, anyway. Did the FSE personally check, oversee or look for rim runout or potential tire defect? Service Manager, "Well, no, we did the balance the other day and then took it to the Ford dealer across the street and they did the GSP9700 balance and they balanced out fine."
-I'm sure they balanced out fine, but that's the issue...they balance out fine but drive poorly. You can balance a brick with enough weight, but that doesn't mean it's going to roll smooth. Service Manager, "Ha ha, yeah, that's true."
-What type of force readings did you guys get from the GSP9700, a printout or some data from them?" Service Manager, "We didn't get a printout as maybe they have one of the old ones that don't have a printer."
-Did you request a printout? Service Manager, "I'm not sure."
-Did the tech at Ford use the HAWEKA adapter as recommended by the TSB? Service Manager, "Well I think he must have."
-Does the Ford service center have a HAWEKA adapter? Service Manager, "I'm not sure, but I'll check on it."
-How would a Ford technician know about a Toyota TSB unless someone personally told him to use it? Service Manager, "Um, Uh, Um, Uh, I'm not sure but I'll check on it."
-You see the reason I'm asking about the printout, adapter and such is so you could provide the wizard with all the information he needed in which to make an informed decision that there is an acutal issue here. Instead, the wizard comes in and doesn't see you have data and facts...you don't have a printout, you're not sure if a HAWEKA adapter was used or even available. See my point? Service Manager, "Yeah, but at the point our hands are tied because there isn't a fix out there."
Needless to say, I got nowhere with this cat. The excuse matrix these service managers have is absolutely incredible. Do they go to school for this?
Service Manager said I could call the Toyota number and submit a trouble ticket...I'm floored...isn't this his job to resolve problems?
So after this is all said and done, the service writer is again asking about giving him a good grade on his report card!! Ha ha
I then go across the street to the Ford garage and talk with the service writer chick over there. The tech who did the GSP9700 wasn't there and I couldn't get any resolution on the question if they had a HAWEKA adapter or not. The girl told me to just bring it back tomorrow afternoon and we'll do it again. She said if they didn't have one, they'd get it from Toyota. Shockingly, I got (initially) better service at the Ford garage.
More to follow tomorrow when round 2 on the GSP9700 happens.
"FSE performed inpection--verified concern. Drove comparison vehicle (VIN JTEBU5JR6C5100730 MILES 4) Comparison vehicle performed identical. Concern is a normal characteristic of this vehicle. No repairs recommended.
Ok, the FSE wizard :witch:drives it and because he is so knowledgeable, he is able to diagnose there is no problem in a 6 mile drive--mind you it's probably 1.5 miles of surface roads each way to get to the freeway, so in 3 miles of evaulation, there is "no problem."
This about set me off. I requested to the service writer that we talk with the wizard and the service manager. The wizard is gone...probably out fixing blown engines and twisted drivelines by uttering the words "Normal characteristic...no repairs recommended." The service manager was apparently "out to lunch" at 4pm when they close at 6pm...yeah right.
I speak with the service manager and ask him questions he didn't have very good answers to. This is a basic jist of the conversation
-So what you're telling me here is I've got a shimmy which the service writer and you initially agreed was a problem, correct? Service Manager, "Yes."
-You guys did a balance and the problem was still there, so you called Toyota who agreed there is a problem and they said to do a GPS 9700 balance, right? Service Manager, "Yes"
-Ok, so you've confirmed there is a problem with Toyota backing you telling you to take further action, you do this, the problem still exists. Now the FSE comes and drives my truck for 6 miles, verifies the issue on mine and another truck, determines and proclaims this is Normal, right? Service Manager, "Well, yeah, they all do that."
-Do you have any documentation from Toyota saying this is normal, because I looked in my owners manual and couldn't find anything saying intermittent steering wheel shiimmy at 60-70 mpg is normal." Service Manager, "Well, yours does it and the brand new one on the lot did it too."
-I can assure you they all don't as my mother in law has one, same year, make, model and hers is smooth. Should I tell her something is wrong as hers doesn't have the normal vibration which is a characteristic of the vehicle? Service Manager, "Well, hers might do it."
-Ok, so if they all 4Runners do this, why does Toyota even bother to balance the tires from the factory if a shimmy is an inherent and desired design charateristic which I think any reasonable person would disagree with? I feel and it's apparant I'm getting brushed off here. Service Manager, "Well, there isn't a repair available that Toyota is telling us to do?"
-Ok, I understand your position, but I have a gut feeling things might not have been done correctly or looked at thoroughly, so hear me out.
-Did the FSE :witch: personally check or oversee an alignment check to rule that out? Service Manager, "Well, um, no, it's the tires vibrating and we did an aligment a while back."
-You're right, you stated you checked the alignment, but I never saw a printout sheet, anyway. Did the FSE personally check, oversee or look for rim runout or potential tire defect? Service Manager, "Well, no, we did the balance the other day and then took it to the Ford dealer across the street and they did the GSP9700 balance and they balanced out fine."
-I'm sure they balanced out fine, but that's the issue...they balance out fine but drive poorly. You can balance a brick with enough weight, but that doesn't mean it's going to roll smooth. Service Manager, "Ha ha, yeah, that's true."
-What type of force readings did you guys get from the GSP9700, a printout or some data from them?" Service Manager, "We didn't get a printout as maybe they have one of the old ones that don't have a printer."
-Did you request a printout? Service Manager, "I'm not sure."
-Did the tech at Ford use the HAWEKA adapter as recommended by the TSB? Service Manager, "Well I think he must have."
-Does the Ford service center have a HAWEKA adapter? Service Manager, "I'm not sure, but I'll check on it."
-How would a Ford technician know about a Toyota TSB unless someone personally told him to use it? Service Manager, "Um, Uh, Um, Uh, I'm not sure but I'll check on it."
-You see the reason I'm asking about the printout, adapter and such is so you could provide the wizard with all the information he needed in which to make an informed decision that there is an acutal issue here. Instead, the wizard comes in and doesn't see you have data and facts...you don't have a printout, you're not sure if a HAWEKA adapter was used or even available. See my point? Service Manager, "Yeah, but at the point our hands are tied because there isn't a fix out there."
Needless to say, I got nowhere with this cat. The excuse matrix these service managers have is absolutely incredible. Do they go to school for this?
Service Manager said I could call the Toyota number and submit a trouble ticket...I'm floored...isn't this his job to resolve problems?
So after this is all said and done, the service writer is again asking about giving him a good grade on his report card!! Ha ha
I then go across the street to the Ford garage and talk with the service writer chick over there. The tech who did the GSP9700 wasn't there and I couldn't get any resolution on the question if they had a HAWEKA adapter or not. The girl told me to just bring it back tomorrow afternoon and we'll do it again. She said if they didn't have one, they'd get it from Toyota. Shockingly, I got (initially) better service at the Ford garage.
More to follow tomorrow when round 2 on the GSP9700 happens.
WindomEarles
New member
welp....today was my final visit to the dealership.
The toyota rep replicated the issue (again) with the service manager in the vehicel and now they are telling me that it's just the behavior of the vehicle "it's a truck and we drove another one that had the same shimmy". He told me the toyota rep is not going to spend anymore time with the vehicle and that they are done looking at it.
This is my first Toyota and I'm not happy - especially for $40k.
Arbitration sounds like the next step. Toyota trucks/fj cruiser/4runners all have vibration issues.
This sucks! Hopefully at least a TSB will come out about this (probably in a few years)
The toyota rep replicated the issue (again) with the service manager in the vehicel and now they are telling me that it's just the behavior of the vehicle "it's a truck and we drove another one that had the same shimmy". He told me the toyota rep is not going to spend anymore time with the vehicle and that they are done looking at it.
This is my first Toyota and I'm not happy - especially for $40k.
Arbitration sounds like the next step. Toyota trucks/fj cruiser/4runners all have vibration issues.
This sucks! Hopefully at least a TSB will come out about this (probably in a few years)
1engineer
Moderator
Now you get to play hardball. Tell the GM you will now get it fixed at their expense somewhere else. They will change their tune.
WindomEarles
New member
The GM actually told me he believes it's not in the tires/wheels (after all they've tried). The toyota tech rep was the one who said that they're done looking at it. I feel like the GM has been very helpful (put on new michiliens) for me, but now he's taking direction from toyota. He said he's going to keep an eye open for new TSB's. Toyota will be running it up the chain. So hopefully, with enough people (THAT MEANS YOU READING THIS FORUM) escalate the issue, we can get some traction from toyota to fix this issue.
I'll tell him I'll be taking it elsewhere and if they fix it, I'll send them a bill. Arbitration may be next!
Jeremy556
New member
I don't think they are running anything up the chain.
You need to find a competent mechanic with troubleshooting skills to fix the problem, and send the dealer the bill. I would also check out the lemon law in your state to give you more leverage for negotiating with the dealer.
You need to find a competent mechanic with troubleshooting skills to fix the problem, and send the dealer the bill. I would also check out the lemon law in your state to give you more leverage for negotiating with the dealer.
1engineer
Moderator
Jeremy is right. Nothing is going up any chain. You paid 40K for a vehicle and in your mind it is not correct in it's operation. You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow so do not stutter with your next step. Write a letter (or get a lawyer buddy to do so) to the GM or owner laying out everything that has been done and said. Then tell them they have choices: Take it back with full refund, fix it or pay to have it fixed. They won't take it back, they have tried to fix it so they really have one alternative and that is to pay to have it fixed. Even though they have been nice to you it's business and nothing else. Fix it, pay to have it fixed or you will eventually get it back and I will get a refund. Their choice. You need much more documentation than your little dissertation you wrote though. Write down everything, and I mean everything that was said and did to the best of your ability along with any and all paperwork, emails, etc that you have.
It's a good vehicle. Everyone has problems such as this from time to time and they eventually get resolved. Good luck.
