Suspension Lift help

[Kdawg]

I have read so many threads about which is the best way to level/lift our 4runners here (hours, days, weeks, months) on the form and have become even more confused on which way to go and I am seeking advice, sorry if this is redundant.

I have a 2017 TRD Off Road Premium with KDSS,2600 miles. The more I drive it the more I like the stock feel of the suspension minus the dreaded nose dive when braking. I do not like the factory rake of the truck and would like it to be more level and raised up over all a little 2-2.5 inches perhaps (hoping for a more aggressive stance)

Here is the situation in where I am seeking advice from experienced members of the forum. I do not do very much off roading, a trip to the beach once a year and a rare trip to the mountains (fire roads), never anything too rough and I live where we get occasional snow and I tow an enclosed motorcycle trailer once in a blue moon. This vehicle is a daily driver so mostly a pavement princess.

I have purchased a set of 5100’s (new in box, have not installed yet). Keeping in mind I want to keep close to stock suspension feel (minus the nose dive if possible) and want to keep tire size of 265 or 275-17 and get rid of the front end rake. After reading the forums I got nervous about going to 1.75/ 1inch back with the 5100’s, I am worried it will be too preloaded and stiff, I thought about doing 0.85 but I am afraid it is just not enough (looks/proportion wise). So since I thought since I have not installed the 5100’s yet I should just order some springs toytec 11260, EMU 884’s 885’s, 883’s maybe (are they softer, like stock), , [Rear] Wheeler's T-13 or SAW’s, or do some kind of spacers and keep the 5100’s set on 0 or not even install them and all and just do the spacers, I think you see my dilemma , too many choices. Just want to keep a nice plush ride (for my daily driving), not go too high 2-2.5 max, 2in would be optimal and not lose all towing capacity (I could always install airbags if need be for that, open to suggestions) and use my 5100 that I have invested in already, Oh and one last thing, I dont want to cause any problems (stering vibration etc). I am not opposed to selling them and do spacers if that is the direction I need to go, I am also willing to spend money and get springs if it helps me accomplish my goals also. If anybody can help me figure this dilemma out it would be greatly appreciated.

Side note: My local 4WD shop has told me since I have KDSS I need some kind of lowering bracket it I lift or level my 4R, is this true, everything I read on here does not say anything about that so I guess he is full of BS?

 

[nb rob]

I have read so many threads about which is the best way to level/lift our 4runners here (hours, days, weeks, months) on the form and have become even more confused on which way to go and I am seeking advice, sorry if this is redundant.

I have a 2017 TRD Off Road Premium with KDSS,2600 miles. The more I drive it the more I like the stock feel of the suspension minus the dreaded nose dive when braking. I do not like the factory rake of the truck and would like it to be more level and raised up over all a little 2-2.5 inches perhaps (hoping for a more aggressive stance)

Here is the situation in where I am seeking advice from experienced members of the forum. I do not do very much off roading, a trip to the beach once a year and a rare trip to the mountains (fire roads), never anything too rough and I live where we get occasional snow and I tow an enclosed motorcycle trailer once in a blue moon. This vehicle is a daily driver so mostly a pavement princess.

I have purchased a set of 5100’s (new in box, have not installed yet). Keeping in mind I want to keep close to stock suspension feel (minus the nose dive if possible) and want to keep tire size of 265 or 275-17 and get rid of the front end rake. After reading the forums I got nervous about going to 1.75/ 1inch back with the 5100’s, I am worried it will be too preloaded and stiff, I thought about doing 0.85 but I am afraid it is just not enough (looks/proportion wise). So since I thought since I have not installed the 5100’s yet I should just order some springs toytec 11260, EMU 884’s 885’s, 883’s maybe (are they softer, like stock), , [Rear] Wheeler's T-13 or SAW’s, or do some kind of spacers and keep the 5100’s set on 0 or not even install them and all and just do the spacers, I think you see my dilemma , too many choices. Just want to keep a nice plush ride (for my daily driving), not go too high 2-2.5 max, 2in would be optimal and not lose all towing capacity (I could always install airbags if need be for that, open to suggestions) and use my 5100 that I have invested in already, Oh and one last thing, I dont want to cause any problems (stering vibration etc). I am not opposed to selling them and do spacers if that is the direction I need to go, I am also willing to spend money and get springs if it helps me accomplish my goals also. If anybody can help me figure this dilemma out it would be greatly appreciated.

Side note: My local 4WD shop has told me since I have KDSS I need some kind of lowering bracket it I lift or level my 4R, is this true, everything I read on here does not say anything about that so I guess he is full of BS?

sorry I can't tell you what to buy,
but I can say that you don't need to lower anything for KDSS.

The end links attach directly to your lower control arms, and the piston and fixed link do not change.

The change in geometry might cause some premature bushing wear, but they're very cheap, and easy to switch out if you do one side at a time with the vehicle on the ground.

 

[TEujunga]

For your application and needs, I'd say the 5100s set at 1.75" in the front with 1" spacers in the rear would probably be the most sensible solution. Ride quality would remain compliant -- a bit firmer than stock, but not too much -- but the stance would be much improved.

It's a common misconception that "preload" makes the springs stiffer. It doesn't. It just limits the suspension travel. If you're mostly staying on pavement and not doing a lot of rock crawling, that shouldn't matter. Any perceived increase in on-road ride harshness is due to the changes in suspension geometry and shock valving, not the "preload" itself.

I don't think there's any way to reduce the nose dive without sacrificing a bit of "plushness" in the ride, but I think you'll find that all these differences are pretty incremental, and you'll soon get used to whatever combination you decide on.

Oh, and no, you don't need any lowering brackets for the KDSS.

 

[Kdawg]

For your application and needs, I'd say the 5100s set at 1.75" in the front with 1" spacers in the rear would probably be the most sensible solution. Ride quality would remain compliant -- a bit firmer than stock, but not too much -- but the stance would be much improved.

It's a common misconception that "preload" makes the springs stiffer. It doesn't. It just limits the suspension travel. If you're mostly staying on pavement and not doing a lot of rock crawling, that shouldn't matter. Any perceived increase in on-road ride harshness is due to the changes in suspension geometry and shock valving, not the "preload" itself.

I don't think there's any way to reduce the nose dive without sacrificing a bit of "plushness" in the ride, but I think you'll find that all these differences are pretty incremental, and you'll soon get used to whatever combination you decide on.

Oh, and no, you don't need any lowering brackets for the KDSS.

Thank you for the response! that is very helpful. I think I read somewhere that [MENTION=58425]CODY[/MENTION] and [MENTION=51725]mybabydaddy[/MENTION] mentioned that this setting is "too stiff" which helped in my descision to hold until I have the exact formula (if that is even possible) that I seek. Correction [MENTION=127657]codyHTX[/MENTION]

 

[mybabydaddy]

I can chime back in having driven on this setup for awhile now... As mentioned, the height changes don't preload the ride really... it's my understanding (and own guessing) that the "stiffer" ride is coming from the actual shocks being firmer than the stock ones, PLUS/AND the larger KDSS sway bar coupled with the new suspension geometry (including my slightly wider offset with the FN wheels). When you COMBINE all of these together, it creates the stiffer-feeling ride. I remember early on, thinking I might do different springs... but honestly, all info I've gathered since installing this setup tells me that I probably would have ended up with an even stiffer ride than I have now (if I had gone that route).

I'm pretty used to the ride now, and really, I don't mind it anymore. I notice it every now and then, but don't really care.


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[craigster59]

For your application and needs, I'd say the 5100s set at 1.75" in the front with 1" spacers in the rear would probably be the most sensible solution. Ride quality would remain compliant -- a bit firmer than stock, but not too much -- but the stance would be much improved.

It's a common misconception that "preload" makes the springs stiffer. It doesn't. It just limits the suspension travel. If you're mostly staying on pavement and not doing a lot of rock crawling, that shouldn't matter. Any perceived increase in on-road ride harshness is due to the changes in suspension geometry and shock valving, not the "preload" itself.

I don't think there's any way to reduce the nose dive without sacrificing a bit of "plushness" in the ride, but I think you'll find that all these differences are pretty incremental, and you'll soon get used to whatever combination you decide on.

Oh, and no, you don't need any lowering brackets for the KDSS.

This is your best application for your needs since you already have the 5100's. It will help with "nosedive".

The lowering brackets they mention are probably the differential drop kit, most don't install it when doing under 3" lift anyway.

 

[Kdawg]

I can chime back in having driven on this setup for awhile now... As mentioned, the height changes don't preload the ride really... it's my understanding (and own guessing) that the "stiffer" ride is coming from the actual shocks being firmer than the stock ones, PLUS/AND the larger KDSS sway bar coupled with the new suspension geometry (including my slightly wider offset with the FN wheels). When you COMBINE all of these together, it creates the stiffer-feeling ride. I remember early on, thinking I might do different springs... but honestly, all info I've gathered since installing this setup tells me that I probably would have ended up with an even stiffer ride than I have now (if I had gone that route).

I'm pretty used to the ride now, and really, I don't mind it anymore. I notice it every now and then, but don't really care.


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Thank you this helps a lot, especially since you have this exact setup. Would you say the ride is an Upgrade to the stock setup, do you ever wish you could have the factory ride back?

Wow, sounds like you have did a lot to your rig, last pictures i had seen it was on stock rims. BTW, how do you like the Nitto TG G2's, I was thinking those or the Toyo open county AT. Post some pics of what she looks like today!

Again, many thanks for your input.

 

[TotalAutomotiveLV]

Thank you for the response! that is very helpful. I think I read somewhere that [MENTION=58425]CODY[/MENTION] and [MENTION=51725]mybabydaddy[/MENTION] mentioned that this setting is "too stiff" which helped in my descision to hold until I have the exact formula (if that is even possible) that I seek. Correction [MENTION=127657]codyHTX[/MENTION]

Bilstein 5100's are a great OEM Bolt-On replacement build that offers Ride-Height Adjustment.

The Front Bilstein 5100's are designed for Ride-Height Lift 0-2.5" and do so with extra extension and not preload.

Top setting is great for 4WD. 3rd setting is great for 2WD

Aftermarket Bilstein shocks are firmer than stock, and provide a feel and support that many have come to prefer and enjoy over time.

You are going to be happy with your new Bilstein 5100's

__

 

[Badmeat]

The Front Bilstein 5100's are designed for Ride-Height Lift 0-2.5" and do so with extra extension and not preload.

That's actually incorrect. Bilstein 5100's raise the vehicle by adding preload the same as the Toytec coilover sleeves (or any other coilover, for that matter). You "preload" the spring by raising the level of the lower perch. It's just via c-clip that the spring perch rests on vs. a threaded sleeve that the spring perch rests on.

 

[GoHerd]

Thanks for posting this. I'm pretty much right where you are on my 2016 Trail.


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[mybabydaddy]

That's actually incorrect. Bilstein 5100's raise the vehicle by adding preload the same as the Toytec coilover sleeves (or any other coilover, for that matter). You "preload" the spring by raising the level of the lower perch. It's just via c-clip that the spring perch rests on vs. a threaded sleeve that the spring perch rests on.

Okay - good point... let me use correct terminology... using the different perch heights will add pre-load, BUT, adding pre-load does NOT change your spring rate (i.e. make it stiffer). The "stiffer" feeling comes from the actual Bilstein shock being a firmer ride, ALONG with all the changes to the steering geometry.

Pre-load affects amount of travel.


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[mybabydaddy]

Thank you this helps a lot, especially since you have this exact setup. Would you say the ride is an Upgrade to the stock setup, do you ever wish you could have the factory ride back?

Wow, sounds like you have did a lot to your rig, last pictures i had seen it was on stock rims. BTW, how do you like the Nitto TG G2's, I was thinking those or the Toyo open county AT. Post some pics of what she looks like today!

Again, many thanks for your input.

Anytime. I've been off the forums lately, just busy at work, etc. But I'm trying to get back to keeping and eye on it again.

I'll post some pics and add some opinion info here over the next couple of days.



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[dawudih]

That's actually incorrect. Bilstein 5100's raise the vehicle by adding preload the same as the Toytec coilover sleeves (or any other coilover, for that matter). You "preload" the spring by raising the level of the lower perch. It's just via c-clip that the spring perch rests on vs. a threaded sleeve that the spring perch rests on.

^ He's right. Here's a copy/paste from Bilstien:

Increased Rebound Control
The lift on the 5100 Series leveling shocks is achieved by increasing the preload on the factory coil. By adding more preload, the shock is designed with more rebound damping as compared to the O.E. or standard aftermarket replacement shock.

Not sure why people continue saying it does not increase preload. Anyway, preload is used to set ride height & increasing it will decrease suspension travel. My advise would be to level it out with a small spacer up front & deal with the soft suspension. It's not better or worse, just different with the 5100's. Anyway, here's a link to the manual. Read the bottom of page 4:
http://www.bilsteinus.com/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload_us/pdfs/Bil_LevShks_WebArticle.pdf

 

[Badmeat]

Pre-load affects amount of travel.

Agreed

 

[Kdawg]

Thanks for posting this. I'm pretty much right where you are on my 2016 Trail.


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No problem, hopefully this will help us figure out the right direction to go. I am still on the fence at this moment.

 

[Kdawg]

^ He's right. Here's a copy/paste from Bilstien:

Increased Rebound Control
The lift on the 5100 Series leveling shocks is achieved by increasing the preload on the factory coil. By adding more preload, the shock is designed with more rebound damping as compared to the O.E. or standard aftermarket replacement shock.

Not sure why people continue saying it does not increase preload. Anyway, preload is used to set ride height & increasing it will decrease suspension travel. My advise would be to level it out with a small spacer up front & deal with the soft suspension. It's not better or worse, just different with the 5100's. Anyway, here's a link to the manual. Read the bottom of page 4:
http://www.bilsteinus.com/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload_us/pdfs/Bil_LevShks_WebArticle.pdf

A spacer is on the short list as well at this point. Although I read somewhere that a spacer can make it ride rough, I have installed spacers before on my F-150's and it did not change the ride one bit and I never had any issues over time or off road either. Is the 4runner with KDSS so much different when it comes to spacers, will this impact anything that much to cause squeeks or affect the ride?

 

[Kdawg]

Anytime. I've been off the forums lately, just busy at work, etc. But I'm trying to get back to keeping and eye on it again.

I'll post some pics and add some opinion info here over the next couple of days.



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Sounds good, I know how it is with being busy with work! Thanks again.

 

[TotalAutomotiveLV]

That's actually incorrect. Bilstein 5100's raise the vehicle by adding preload the same as the Toytec coilover sleeves (or any other coilover, for that matter). You "preload" the spring by raising the level of the lower perch. It's just via c-clip that the spring perch rests on vs. a threaded sleeve that the spring perch rests on.

Okay - good point... let me use correct terminology... using the different perch heights will add pre-load, BUT, adding pre-load does NOT change your spring rate (i.e. make it stiffer). The "stiffer" feeling comes from the actual Bilstein shock being a firmer ride, ALONG with all the changes to the steering geometry.

Pre-load affects amount of travel.


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Thanks to BadMeat and MyBabyDaddy for helping provide a little clarity to one of our Team Member posts.

5100's are designed to provide lift, while maintaining performance. This is a better option over a preload kit and/or strut extension.

_

 

[Kdawg]

Thanks to BadMeat and MyBabyDaddy for helping provide a little clarity to one of our Team Member posts.

5100's are designed to provide lift, while maintaining performance. This is a better option over a preload kit and/or strut extension.

_

That is dependant on the end users goals, budget and overall needs......

 

[Hippestguyever]

I have read so many threads about which is the best way to level/lift our 4runners here (hours, days, weeks, months) on the form and have become even more confused on which way to go and I am seeking advice, sorry if this is redundant.

I have a 2017 TRD Off Road Premium with KDSS,2600 miles. The more I drive it the more I like the stock feel of the suspension minus the dreaded nose dive when braking. I do not like the factory rake of the truck and would like it to be more level and raised up over all a little 2-2.5 inches perhaps (hoping for a more aggressive stance)

Here is the situation in where I am seeking advice from experienced members of the forum. I do not do very much off roading, a trip to the beach once a year and a rare trip to the mountains (fire roads), never anything too rough and I live where we get occasional snow and I tow an enclosed motorcycle trailer once in a blue moon. This vehicle is a daily driver so mostly a pavement princess.

I have purchased a set of 5100’s (new in box, have not installed yet). Keeping in mind I want to keep close to stock suspension feel (minus the nose dive if possible) and want to keep tire size of 265 or 275-17 and get rid of the front end rake. After reading the forums I got nervous about going to 1.75/ 1inch back with the 5100’s, I am worried it will be too preloaded and stiff, I thought about doing 0.85 but I am afraid it is just not enough (looks/proportion wise). So since I thought since I have not installed the 5100’s yet I should just order some springs toytec 11260, EMU 884’s 885’s, 883’s maybe (are they softer, like stock), , [Rear] Wheeler's T-13 or SAW’s, or do some kind of spacers and keep the 5100’s set on 0 or not even install them and all and just do the spacers, I think you see my dilemma , too many choices. Just want to keep a nice plush ride (for my daily driving), not go too high 2-2.5 max, 2in would be optimal and not lose all towing capacity (I could always install airbags if need be for that, open to suggestions) and use my 5100 that I have invested in already, Oh and one last thing, I dont want to cause any problems (stering vibration etc). I am not opposed to selling them and do spacers if that is the direction I need to go, I am also willing to spend money and get springs if it helps me accomplish my goals also. If anybody can help me figure this dilemma out it would be greatly appreciated.

Side note: My local 4WD shop has told me since I have KDSS I need some kind of lowering bracket it I lift or level my 4R, is this true, everything I read on here does not say anything about that so I guess he is full of BS?

Hey! I was/am in the same situation! My 17' TRD KDSS has 2500 miles as well! I really didn't like the front rake either, mine felt lower than most (in my head) My major priority was comfort/daily driver/keep something close to stock as well. After confusing myself day after day with the forums, I ended up electing doing the 6112/5100 2.5/1.5 inch setup and after seeing the lift I'm glad I went with the 285 C rated Nitto Terra Grapplers - They are a good road tire that can go for the occasional trail when needed. They only weight 44 lbs as opposed to some of the other 285s out there. I would definitely recommend it. It drives very smooth, quiet and so far I haven't noticed any MPG loss. It's early so I will definitely keep an eye out on the MPG but I'm extremely happy with the choice, If you need help with anything PM me and I will help with everything I learned so far. Good luck on the setup!