Suspension lifts - Realities and capabilities

[infinitedev]

This post has inspired me to go dig up some video of my stock trail running Lockheart Basin.

At this point, I had the 4runner for just over a week, and the only thing done to it was a set of RCI sliders. On the trail, I ended up removing the mudflaps, and lowering the air pressure of the stock tires.

With patience, a good spotter, and a little bit of fear in me of damaging a brand new vehicle, I made it through with only a dented tail pipe and some scratched/dented skids.

Learn when to use the locker, and when not to. Take it slow. I'll be honest- I was freaking out in this section, and it was mentally challenging. If I had aftermarket skids, I would have been much more comfortable.

I still would like to put a small <2" lift on, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Skids, sliders, and tires will take you to many places. People talking about getting stuck on fire roads have me scratching my head...

The video is a bit long, and I just uploaded it from the camera without editing, so don't expect too much in production quality, but it should get my point across.

https://youtu.be/50RWIZwsX50

 

[wfo9]

There are essentially two components which dictate the suspensions characteristics (aside from it's basic geometry)

1) Springs - determine how much the suspension will compress given a certain load. This load can be applied by adding weight or through weight transfer during acceleration (cornering, braking, accelerating). The stiffer the spring, the less the suspension will deflect given a certain load. This is why stiffer springs are needed when you start adding the steel bumpers, tire carriers, and gobi racks loaded down with all of your 'bro-verlanding' equipment. Stiffer springs will also make the suspension feel more tight over bumps.

2) Shocks - The effects of shock absorbers are more difficult to visualize than that of springs, but the basic summary is that it is their job to keep the tire in contact with the surface below by limiting (or controling) oscilaitons in the suspension. There would be a lot to cover here but sufficed to say, the shocks are the component with the largest impact in how the vehicle "rides". How smooth or rough it feels over uneven surfaces.

With that in mind, there are several reasons to upgrade suspension in the context of an offroad vehicle. Some lifts accomplish all of these goals, some only accomplish 1 or 2. Here are the main ones that come to my mind:

1) Increased clearance for larger tires
2) Increased suspension travel (more available traction over uneven terrain) ***Keep in mind that with an IFS like on the 4runner there is a limit to how much articulation can be achieved***
3) Improved traction at speed over certain terrain types (shock valving)
4) Increased load capacity
5) Improved aesthetics (let's not pretend this doesn't matter)
6) Improved approach, breakover, and departure angles.
7) Improved clearance for everything except the differentials

Here's how some common types of lift do in the above categories **my opinion**:

Spacer lifts:

1) Good enough
2) Terrible - spacer lifts decrease your downtravel by the ammount of the lift. This is the number one reason not to use spacers.
3) Terrible - limiting downtravel can cause the suspension to bottom out abruptly over uneven surfaces. Not good!
4) Neither help nor hinder
5) OK for leveling
6) OK
7) OK

Upgraded springs and shocks:

1) Good
2) Good as long as the shock absorber has enough travel
3) Good
4) Good, depending on springs. No adjustability though
5) Good
6) Good
7) Good

Coilovers:

1) Good - Great (adjustable)
2) Good
3) Good
4) Good - Great, again the adjustability allows you to dial in some spring preload to level out additional weight. As long as you keep it reasonable this should have minimal impact on ride quality
5) Good - Great (king coilovers are sexy!)
6) Good
7) Good

You are going to "feel" changes to your suspension in basically one of two ways:

1) You added a spacer lift, too short shocks, or topped out a set of coilovers which has limited your downtravel drastically, causing the ride to feel very abrupt and jarring as the bottoming out suspension rocks your vehicle like a shot over every pothole. You probably notice I reference downtravel a bunch, and the reason being is that lifts work by "pushing" the suspension more downward from its stock location. This isn't necissarily bad, up to a point, however if the shock absorbers aren't upgraded, you'll run out of stroke (then they become tubular limiting straps) or you may end up contacting the spring with the upper control arm, particularly if you kept the UCA stock (which will also mean you probably have the caster way out of alignment)

2) You have changed the shock absorbers in some meaningful way. This could be bad or good, depending on what you've done and how you're driving. If you're driving at high speeds in the desert and you just threw in some shocks valved to tackle such a job, you'll probably be amazed at the improvement over stock. If you selected shock absorbers designed to be paired with heavy duty springs for increased load capacity, but aren't carrying anything extra aside from groceries...then the ride quality will likely feel very rough.

As far as whether or not a suspension lift will improve offroad capability, the answer is yes, as long as you are not sacrificing the travel for the benefit of pure "height". Increased approach, breakover, and departure angles are all realized. Without getting larger tires, you aren't adding any ground clearance to the differentials, but your bumpers will be higher and less likely to drag in the mud or water or whatever you're driving through/over. The two largest improvements you can make to your 4runner for offroading are Suspension and Tires, and they go hand in hand. Both need to be chosen to suit your intended use.

Having typed all of that: I'm getting Fox 2.5 remote resi's and 285 Trail Grapplers, because I hate "settling" and because I f**king can :lol:

Good summary... Glad to see some sanity around here...

There is one point that is often misunderstood. Suspension lifts don't typically clear a bigger tires on IFS... You could probably run the same tire size at stock height if you actually offroad it and utilize all the travel (not including mall crawlers here...) Now, you can run longer bump stops.. and limit compression and end up clearing a bigger tire. But you can't really limit it much with such a small amount of travel from the factory geometry without some major downsides.....

It's different with solid axles trucks.. As you typically have way more travel/articulation to work with and extending the bump stops is not as big of a deal. In the jeep world... lifts clear more tire... Just not exactly the same with IFS, yet the myth carries on. Jeeps just stop at wallmart and throw in more tennis balls when they rub....

 

[fayewong]

Anyway, it's interesting that there is almost no consensus on what suspension modifications are "best" for general off road trail riding.

You have to think of it like clothes. Every article of clothing suits each person's needs and their personal identity. Just like you go asking about life.

What is your favorite color? why?
What is your favorite meal? Why?
What is your favorite music? Why?
Who is your ideal guy/girl? Why?

What is your preferred brand of motor oil? Why?
Why are you driving a 4runner? Why?
Why do you need to change your suspension and why do you want that setup?

All about personal preference and opinion. I like it because I LIKE IT!

If you don't think you will like it or have doubts, then don't do it. Don't blame us if you don't like it just because we like "such and such" setup. :rockthrow:

 

[Simpleman74]

if you don't mod a 4runner you should sell it and buy a prius cause you are a puss:whipping2

 

[Throwback]

What a thread.

I've found a few threads where guys have reported poor ride quality from combining OME springs with 5100 shocks and the reason being given is that the coils are linear and don't match the valving, and should instead be matched with OME shocks. Something like that.

There seems to be a lot of science to it that is largely ignored or isn't quite understood when suspension packages are pieced together. Lots of threads with complaints of rough rides up front, then the details coming out that the new springs are 30%+ higher rate than OE for example, or just that the rates of the new front and rear coils don't match each other.

Seems a standard "kitted" OME lift or similar would be the best option for me *if* I ever decide to go that route.

And yeah, I'd buy it all pre-assembled so I could have it simply swapped in and retain my OE stuff to easily swap back in later if I wanted. Because I can.

I'll not speak for everyone else, but while I'd like to be trail riding in my 4Runner every day I have a job, a family, a house, etc. to tend to so screwing around with mods and discussing them on a forum is simply another way to enjoy the vehicle hobby. :tea:

 

[b407driver]

What a thread...

Well... you did walk right into it.

I personally think a TRD Pro would be perfect for you, and would most likely meet all of your needs with the least potential for wanting to fix some issue that mods to your Trail would create.

:hiding:

 

[Louise]

if you don't mod a 4runner you should sell it and buy a prius cause you are a puss:whipping2

Please leave your hurtful comments at the door. This thread is about a bunch of grown men who are discussing how much of a difference an inch makes.

 

[Simpleman74]

Please leave your hurtful comments at the door. This thread is about a bunch of grown men who are discussing how much of a difference an inch makes.

thats what she said

 

[Grug556]

I personally think BIlsteins are shit based on my experience with their QC department when I had their PSS9 coilovers on a tuned Audi. Absolute junk!

That said OP you are missing one of the easiest suspension components that you can tune cheaply. The tires. With a combination of tire pressure and sidewall stiffness you can to a certain degree fine tune things. Also consider the tire and rim weight while tuning and setting up. Keep weight low and optimize sidewalls for added suspension.

 

[Crikeymike]

1) How much more *actual* off-road capability is gained by a 1.5-2.5" lift on stock size (or close to it) tires?

Lift = ground clearance on an IFS truck.

Ground Clearance = going further offroad. Then adding larger tires gives more ground clearance as well as a larger tire area to go over obstacles more easily, making it more capable offroad.

If you're less likely to scrub/bottom out the underside, then you can literally get further offroad, which is the main reason for lifting a vehicle, and when you lift it, you can take the chance to upgrade to offroad-specific suspension at that time.

Remember, your truck came with suspension that will meet the needs of 95% of the people that will buy them, meaning that they want the best on road quality at the most affordable (cheapest) price. Stock shocks are in the neighborhood of $6-7 each to produce, so aftermarket shocks use higher quality components, different valving stocks, stronger bodies, and all sorts of features and upgrades to make them better for offroad performance.

 

[blackie2]

I'll give you the truth. Yes, it's going to piss a bunch of people off, but hey, the truth hurts. Warning - Long read ahead:

First, let me dispense with the "I'd rather have it and not need it" "when it comes to suspension" crap. Why be selective if this is your mantra? You should wear two pairs of pants and socks every day then. You should have a spare 4Runner sitting at home. Hell, you should have two identical homes - you know - just in case one blows away. This excuse is just a way to justify things for some people. The truth? Here you go:

Most mod their 4Runner for one reason: Looks. That's it. It looks cool (I agree) and it fits their "image" of who they think they are when they look in the mirror. They mod it not because they NEED to but because they WANT to. In reality, even HAVING a 4Runner for most people is way overkill. What do they think... that the nice divided highway that leads to their manicured subdivision is suddenly going to turn into mush? Zombies? Who knows, but truthfully, 99% of the people, and I think that is an understatement, would do just fine with a Highlander. But they WANT a 4Runner and that's fine. I just wish they would admit it. So, now that we have got the "bro" element out of the way, on to modding.

Larger tires are the ONLY way you get increased ground clearance. Don't buy into the BS hype. Lifting increases your STATIC (sitting still) ground clearance. So, if you want to improve your approach angle why you are sitting still, then by all means lift it for that reason! Your suspension is dynamic - meaning it moves through a range. If you only lift it and do not install bigger tires, then when your suspension compresses while hitting a bump off road then it momentarily is back where it was before lifting! So that rock you thought you could clear by lifting? You might still hit it. Some will tell you "285's are the way to go! Much better than stock!" Well, why did they stop at 285's? Why not run 295's and they will go further. Why stop there? go to 35's and they will go even further. Wait! Let's go to 37's! I can go anywhere! Well, you can, until the guy with 40's goes even further...
Those who want to lift to clear larger tires? If you want to have your tires clear throughout the full suspension range you STILL have to mod the inner fender, BMC maybe, mud flap delete, aftermarket UCA's, etc. Let's move on.

If you do a suspension lift, be prepared to:
Accept that your vehicle will make more noises
Accept that your vehicle will not be as reliable or durable
Accept that your vehicle will require more maintenance
Accept that your vehicle will NOT ride or handle the same on the highway.
Accept that your vehicle will not be as efficient on the highway
Accept that your vehicle could require even more mods to "fix" the mods you just did.
Accept that any issues involving a myriad of suspension and driveline components COULD be denied for warranty consideration if there is a problem.

Now, with that said, the haters are definitely going to hate, but the above is the truth. Well then, why would you even mod or lift? Well,

Lifting, even though it is the best mod visually, is only one minor component of making the 4Runner more off road worthy. To truly make it really good off road, you need:
Skids
Bumpers
Lift
Associated Suspension Components like UCA's
Tires
Recovery gear

You are right to assume that opinions will be biased. That's natural. If I spent $5K on something, I will want it to be the best thing ever, and even if it's not, I will still tell people it's the best thing ever! Human nature. I'm looking at a new mountain bike that's around $5K. Trust me, it will be the best bike ever and I will tell everyone it is when I get it (even if it's not).

Truthfully, lifting, just lifting alone, does very little to help off road and only hurts you on road. But... it looks really good lol. Leveling? Worst idea ever. Purely for looks, terrible for performance like vehicle loading.

Now, why and I writing this, this heretic blasphemy on an enthusiast's forum? Because it's simply realistic. I started modding vehicles almost 40 years ago. I have almost (and have) ruined vehicles from being daily drivers by modding. I have taken perfectly good vehicles and, while making them off road kings, made them big fat pigs with horrible road manners. I have also take vehicles and made them LOOK like they could tackle Dakar.. and ruined their road manners and efficiency in the process.

I go off road more than most and some of it is for my job. My 4Runner is stock and goes off road better than just about any other vehicle in stock configuration. As a matter of fact, my 4Runner will go places that I don't have the courage to take it! Stock.

The one thing my stock 4Runner does not do as well stock? Looks. It does not look as cool as other vehicles, which is why most here mod theirs to begin with.

There you go. I'm not selling anything and I have no reason to lie or justify anything to you. All I have is experience. Evaluate (truthfully) what you really want to do with your 4Runner. Chances are, stock will be just fine and there is no shame in stacking rocks and taking the bypass every now and then. You will appreciate this when you are taking that 2K road trip comfortably and getting 20 mpg and not hearing any creaks and groans every time you hit a speed bump.

But, if you are like me, you will STILL look at your 4Runner sitting in the driveway and think "Damn, it would look too good I I just lifted it and put some different wheels on it..." so far I have been able to fight that demon...

I don't disagree with this assessment but you forgot one little thing about buying a 4Runner, it's the freaking rear window that I can roll up or down!!! Can't do that in a Highlander and my 4Runner is basically my dog mobile so my Border Collie really appreciates the extra air flow.

 

[1engineer]

Lift = ground clearance on an IFS truck.

Ground Clearance = going further offroad. Then adding larger tires gives more ground clearance as well as a larger tire area to go over obstacles more easily, making it more capable offroad.

If you're less likely to scrub/bottom out the underside, then you can literally get further offroad, which is the main reason for lifting a vehicle, and when you lift it, you can take the chance to upgrade to offroad-specific suspension at that time.

Remember, your truck came with suspension that will meet the needs of 95% of the people that will buy them, meaning that they want the best on road quality at the most affordable (cheapest) price. Stock shocks are in the neighborhood of $6-7 each to produce, so aftermarket shocks use higher quality components, different valving stocks, stronger bodies, and all sorts of features and upgrades to make them better for offroad performance.

1. The most important thing to going off road is driver ability. That's it. If you suck at driving, all the lift in the world won't help you. I've seen 2WD cars in places I wouldn't take the 4Runner.
2. Lift helps go over obstacles, not go further. Pretty sure you can take a stock 4Runner and a 4Runner on 40's and both will make it across that fire road like the OP stated. Obstacles, not distance.
3. The main reason 95% of people lift their trucks? Looks. And vanity. And cool factor. Not to go deep into the wilderness.

 

[CajunYota]

Good summary... Glad to see some sanity around here...

There is one point that is often misunderstood. Suspension lifts don't typically clear a bigger tires on IFS... You could probably run the same tire size at stock height if you actually offroad it and utilize all the travel

They clear bigger tires in the sense that you won't get rubbing during normal driving. Now yes, once the suspension compresses drastically, as encountered during offroading, you will have to take steps to mitigate rubbing.

Another characteristic of IFS is that a suspension lift does actually give you more ground clearance for the differential. Kind of a moot point, since the rear is a solid axle in the 4runner, but since we're being precise...

 

[Leucifer]

Mandatory - Good Tires. AT or similar.
Mandatory - Gloves. To protect hands when stacking rock...
Option - Sliders.
Option - Gas tank skid.
Mandatory - Off Road Driving Skills Course, or Prior Experience Screwing Up So You Can Now Pick A Good Line...
Mandatory - Basic Recovery Gear. Keep it in a box. Put it in the 4Runner when you are going to go off road.

That is all.

Add:

Option - Patience.
Option - Willingness to learn and gain experience.
Option - Humility: Admitting you don't know and asking questions.

The first, some people will never have.
The second, well, you're going to get experience one way or another, why not make it positive?
Third, most of the times I ended up in deep shit was because I had a big head and thought I knew better. Whereas, had I stopped for a minute, asked someone in the know, and rubbed some brain cells together to think through a problem logically, I'd be miles ahead.

Edit:

1. The most important thing to going off road is driver ability. That's it. If you suck at driving, all the lift in the world won't help you. I've seen 2WD cars in places I wouldn't take the 4Runner.
2. Lift helps go over obstacles, not go further. Pretty sure you can take a stock 4Runner and a 4Runner on 40's and both will make it across that fire road like the OP stated. Obstacles, not distance.
3. The main reason 95% of people lift their trucks? Looks. And vanity. And cool factor. Not to go deep into the wilderness.

You hit on those ideas shortly after. Credit where credit is due.

And yeah. I've seen people off-road with stock vehicles in some spots that I thought "No effing way". That was part of the wake-up call. It's taken me a while to learn what I do know, and I know I still have a TON to learn (and will be learning all the way into my grave, hopefully).

 

[4boer2]

[MENTION=147450]Throwback[/MENTION] I am in the same boat as you. I've been researching suspension and tires for a while now and [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] always have the most practical advice. Like you I enjoy the plush ride of the SR5 and don't want anything too stiff. But I do off road more than a tiny bit (for fun and to get to cool places), some of the bigger hits are jarring and more clearance when aired down would've been nice for Top of the World. I could also benefit from a higher spring weight in the back for those big bike camping trips. I think I'm going to go with 1.75 all around Dobinsons lift with 255/80 ATs. No uca's needed, no worries about maintenance or excessive CV wear, no worries about shock failure, they should be more plush than OME, cost effective, minimal highway MPG drop. However, I have gotten through everything my balls have attempted stock with sliders, and I love when people stare, but not without some damage. I do think I have driver experience down enough to keep me out of trouble. I think the only thing stopping me is that my legs are short and I'm worried about my seat side cracking getting in and out, not to mention someone shorter complaining already...

Luckily for me there are a ton of members here in Colorado so I might ask for a ride along. I plan on keeping this car for forever and don't want to **** it up, so I will keep my stock suspension just in case.

...and its going to look ****in sick lol

 

[Throwback]

Mandatory - Good Tires. AT or similar.
Mandatory - Gloves. To protect hands when stacking rock...
Option - Sliders.
Option - Gas tank skid.
Mandatory - Off Road Driving Skills Course, or Prior Experience Screwing Up So You Can Now Pick A Good Line...
Mandatory - Basic Recovery Gear. Keep it in a box. Put it in the 4Runner when you are going to go off road.

That is all.

Maybe this warrants another thread, or maybe a standalone article from those guys with years of experience doing this stuff.

There seem to be a few other modifications that could be considered mandatory it seems - like extending the rear diff and locker breathers.

New guys like myself are curious to do more with these rigs and realize there are some things that easily improve the capability (tires, etc.) and some things that you should do before embarking on a weekend trail ride for you first time. It would help us be prepared to not be embarrassed or be a hindrance to a large group ride.

Maybe you old hands could collaborate on a top-to-bottom "starter kit" list for any modifications to the 5th gen and carried accessories (recovery, fire extinguisher, etc.).

Thoughts?

 

[1engineer]

Maybe this warrants another thread, or maybe a standalone article from those guys with years of experience doing this stuff.

There seem to be a few other modifications that could be considered mandatory it seems - like extending the rear diff and locker breathers.

New guys like myself are curious to do more with these rigs and realize there are some things that easily improve the capability (tires, etc.) and some things that you should do before embarking on a weekend trail ride for you first time. It would help us be prepared to not be embarrassed or be a hindrance to a large group ride.

Maybe you old hands could collaborate on a top-to-bottom "starter kit" list for any modifications to the 5th gen and carried accessories (recovery, fire extinguisher, etc.).

Thoughts?

Please don't take this the wrong way but there is no "starter kit" and there is no "perfect way" and there is no "best mod for offroad" that will fit all people.

The absolute best thing you can do is DRIVE your 4Runner. Do these things:
Drive it stock for about six months.
Take it off road in stock form.
Get stuck.
Get stuck with no obvious solution is better.
Stack rocks.
Drag the hitch.
Have fun.
Almost run out of gas.
Sit on the rear bumper and eat a packed lunch.
Sleep in it.
Go slow.
Air the tires down to 20 psi.
Drive it some more.
Spend Sunday polishing out the pinstripes you got.
Spend Monday reading the forum on how to do better what you did Saturday.
And more....

My point is, by doing this, you will develop your OWN list. Your OWN ideas on what lift to buy... or what tires to buy.

Do you ever hear us old guys asking for a list of mods or the "best" way to do something? No you don't, and believe me, we didn't ask back in the old days when we started either. We went out and did the things I listed above and built our own lists based on our adventures. Sure, we asked HOW to do things but usually that was based on us trying and failing to begin with.
[MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] or [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] or [MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION] or anyone else is going to have a different way of doing things than me and each other. Sure, there will be a few common things but mostly they will be different. A lot of that depends on the location and terrain too.

I implore you, just drive. Drive it off road stock. Drive it hard. Drive it for months. In six months you will have your own list and it will suit you, not anyone else.

 

[sn_85]

Maybe this warrants another thread, or maybe a standalone article from those guys with years of experience doing this stuff.



There seem to be a few other modifications that could be considered mandatory it seems - like extending the rear diff and locker breathers.



New guys like myself are curious to do more with these rigs and realize there are some things that easily improve the capability (tires, etc.) and some things that you should do before embarking on a weekend trail ride for you first time. It would help us be prepared to not be embarrassed or be a hindrance to a large group ride.



Maybe you old hands could collaborate on a top-to-bottom "starter kit" list for any modifications to the 5th gen and carried accessories (recovery, fire extinguisher, etc.).



Thoughts?

Please no, don't start another thread.

Use the search function.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[RaisedByWolves]

[MENTION=147450]Throwback[/MENTION] yes drive to discover but just trust me on this one - do not do spacers to level. You're welcome.

 

[4boer2]

[MENTION=147450]Throwback[/MENTION] I am in the same boat as you. I've been researching suspension and tires for a while now and [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] always have the most practical advice. Like you I enjoy the plush ride of the SR5 and don't want anything too stiff. But I do off road more than a tiny bit (for fun and to get to cool places), some of the bigger hits are jarring and more clearance when aired down would've been nice for Top of the World. I could also benefit from a higher spring weight in the back for those big bike camping trips. I think I'm going to go with 1.75 all around Dobinsons lift with 255/80 ATs. No uca's needed, no worries about maintenance or excessive CV wear, no worries about shock failure, they should be more plush than OME, cost effective, minimal highway MPG drop. However, I have gotten through everything my balls have attempted stock with sliders, and I love when people stare, but not without some damage. I do think I have driver experience down enough to keep me out of trouble. I think the only thing stopping me is that my legs are short and I'm worried about my seat side cracking getting in and out, not to mention someone shorter complaining already...

Luckily for me there are a ton of members here in Colorado so I might ask for a ride along. I plan on keeping this car for forever and don't want to **** it up, so I will keep my stock suspension just in case.

...and its going to look ****in sick lol

So I installed my Dobinsons kit today, and it's perfect. Got it done in a day. Tires won't be on until winter. I forgot to take measurements ...and it looks ****in sick.