SUV critics

[BigDogMoney]

Hey Bigdogmoney, check it out. It's already happening and if it is happening now then after the election with 4 years to get over the political impact it will be a done deal. Bottomline we can't have a military the size that it needs to be without a draft. If you are within this age range then you need to grab your butt with both hands because here it comes.

http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2003/S89/default.asp

You know they said the samething during Vietnam, but they kept drafting them.

I think this is too political for this kind of site, but I don't know what your point is Pitbull. You sent a link to a Bill that some Congreeman sponsored in '03, that still doesn't have any co-sponsors. Anyway, why would we need a draft right now? Aside from terrorism, who is our enemy? France? Bush advocates better pay for the military to increase personnel and John Kerry doesn't support a draft. Colin Powell doesn't even support a draft neither does Wesley Clarke.

What do you mean "it's already happening..."? The draft is not a topic in the mainstream media right now, and the majority of the public doesn't support a draft at this time. Get your facts straight cheif.

 

[bluewolf]

What the hell does drafting kids have to do with SUV bashing?

 

[dman90012]

And with "leaders" like Cheney who holds closed door "executively privilaged" meetings with folks from the Petro/Industrial circles to map out our energy policy..
WOW..arent a majority of us really smart!!

Who else would Cheney talk to about energy policy but oil/coal/nuclear etc. companies? Aren't they the major energy suppliers in the US?

You wouldn't suggest talking to pie-in-the-sky enviromentalists to shape energy policy would you?:rolleye2:

 

[dman90012]

I believe that we currently have the technology to start the "phase-out" of the gas engine and begin mass-producing an acceptable if not equally-powerful alternative such as hydrogen fuel cell, gyroscopic-kinetic, whatever. I think the problem is not so much that the technology has not been perfected enough or can not be made affordable, but that there are still literally hundreds of trillions of dollars to be made in petroleum. Oil companies are unspeakably powerful... even more-so than we obviously know. I believe they collectively have the power to bring a nation to it's knees if threatened enough... rest assured they will not be de-throned any time soon. A country such as ours is at their mercy, not the other way around. Any sizeable campaign to begin elimination of the gasoline engine would be met with tremendous resistance from some very powerful entities. I believe that even a sizeable effort to become much more self-reliant/sufficient (via Alaska or the Gulf) would result in a political "whipping". An effort to eliminate our dependency upon them entirely would result in war.

Although I agree there is current technology for alternative engines, they are just not economically viable. Many require infrastructure changes. For example, gas stations would have to be converted to supply the fuel for fuel cells. Secondly, there are safety issues. What if your hydrogen car gets into an accident? How is the (extremely explosive) hydrogen held in place? Remember Challenger?

Here's my take. If gas prices start reaching towards the 4-5 dollar range, you'll see more hybrids and alternative fuel cars being released. It is in the oil companies interest to keep gas prices relatively low. If they get too greedy, they will price themselves out of the market (regardless of how strong their lobbying is in Washington). Lobbying didn't seem to do GM, Ford, and Chrysler any good in the 70s and 80s. They simply didn't have the product the public demanded.

 

[biglatka]

I believe that we currently have the technology to start the "phase-out" of the gas engine and begin mass-producing an acceptable if not equally-powerful alternative such as hydrogen fuel cell, gyroscopic-kinetic, whatever. I think the problem is not so much that the technology has not been perfected enough or can not be made affordable, but that there are still literally hundreds of trillions of dollars to be made in petroleum. Oil companies are unspeakably powerful... even more-so than we obviously know. I believe they collectively have the power to bring a nation to it's knees if threatened enough... rest assured they will not be de-throned any time soon. A country such as ours is at their mercy, not the other way around. Any sizeable campaign to begin elimination of the gasoline engine would be met with tremendous resistance from some very powerful entities. I believe that even a sizeable effort to become much more self-reliant/sufficient (via Alaska or the Gulf) would result in a political "whipping". An effort to eliminate our dependency upon them entirely would result in war.

Sadly, what you've said about the oil companies is right on the money. We have the technology now to use alternate forms of energy (solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, etc.) to separate hydrogen from water for use in hydrogen powered hybrid cars and SUV's (these cars exist today). It would cost more for now but would be more than competitive in the near future when gas prices soar due to world consumption competing for dwindling oil reserves. If we wait until the crunch that's coming and it will come, trying to play catch-up would like closing the barn door after the cows got out. We could soften the blow on consumers and hasten production by giving tax incentives for research and development and then for the purchase of these cars but, as you said, that's not the problem. The oil companies will never let that happen. They'll do what they did to solar power; buy up all the patents to stifle progress in alleviating dependence on oil.

 

[lildevil23]

??

Who else would Cheney talk to about energy policy but oil/coal/nuclear etc. companies? Aren't they the major energy suppliers in the US?

You wouldn't suggest talking to pie-in-the-sky enviromentalists to shape energy policy would you?:rolleye2:

Emphasis on CLOSED DOOR "EXECUTIVELY PRIVILAGED"!! :twak:
Maybe they should have included these pie-in-the-sky environmentalists and try promoting some initiatives (a.k.a R&D into promising sources of energy fields) other than dream up of ways to hogg all the contracts for the middle east rebuilding activities or more so buy up/stifle innovative ideas to lessen dependence!!:whipping2:

 

[Kanab]

because pittbull thinks that we're in iraq for oil that our SUV's consume. since we're in iraq and afghanistan, our military is stretched kinda thin, so he thinks the draft will be back in '05 with a fury. i tend to disagree, but to each his own...

(Do you guys read these posts or just respond. Here is how this pissing match started.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BigDogMoney
it's this appetite of our vehicles for oil that has something to do with our men and women being in Iraq right now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by Pitbull
I guess I'm confused? I thought Bush said it was terrorist and WMD? Hope your not draft age or you will soon be joining them.


__________________

Now back to topic. Popular science recently had a article that discussed the fact that many top scientists believe that we are not even close to being out of oil on this planet. They think it is renewing itself based on shifts in the earth's surface and the combining of gasses under the earth with the oil producing minerals. They have measured what they thought was the oil reserves under the gulf of Mexico and years later found that the supply has increased. Just thought I would add this information to the mix. I'm not worried about running out, as the price point goes up more companies will build more refineries and more oil wells will be opened and drilled. If the price is high enough we will create more vehicles using cheaper alternative fuel or more economical vehicles. When fuel prices go up a lot of people panic and sell their gas hogs and buy a econo box. Most lose more money on the trade then they will save in fuel cost saving over the time they keep the vehicle.

 

[dman90012]

Re: ??

Emphasis on CLOSED DOOR "EXECUTIVELY PRIVILAGED"!! :twak:
Maybe they should have included these pie-in-the-sky environmentalists and try promoting some initiatives (a.k.a R&D into promising sources of energy fields) other than dream up of ways to hogg all the contracts for the middle east rebuilding activities or more so buy up/stifle innovative ideas to lessen dependence!!:whipping2:

So what if they secret meetings. Is executive privilege a new thing? Are they suppose to disclose brainstorming sessions? Regardless of what happened in those 'awful secret meetings', the energy policy that was created is public domain. That is the policy (right or wrong) they are pushing.

Relax and take the tin foil down... (just a joke...)

 

[dman90012]

Now back to topic. Popular science recently had a article that discussed the fact that many top scientists believe that we are not even close to being out of oil on this planet. They think it is renewing itself based on shifts in the earth's surface and the combining of gasses under the earth with the oil producing minerals. They have measured what they thought was the oil reserves under the gulf of Mexico and years later found that the supply has increased. Just thought I would add this information to the mix. I'm not worried about running out, as the price point goes up more companies will build more refineries and more oil wells will be opened and drilled. If the price is high enough we will create more vehicles using cheaper alternative fuel or more economical vehicles. When fuel prices go up a lot of people panic and sell their gas hogs and buy a econo box. Most lose more money on the trade then they will save in fuel cost saving over the time they keep the vehicle.

I think that is the same article I remember. Like I said before maybe the oil supply isn't as finite as some people like to think. But don't tell the 'sky is falling' crowd...

 

[BigDogMoney]

If there's so much oil and it's renewable, then where are all of the new major wells? I'm not being a pessimist, I'm just considering what I've read from geologists who worked for oil companies, and articles in newspapers and magazines, and most exploratory gelogists agree that oil production will peak soon. To say that oil is a renewable energy source is preposterous. The shifting of the Earth's plates might move the oil around and create fissures that allow the oil to rise further to the surface and fill in voids, or displace water but there isn't an un-ending supply. You’re putting oil into the same category as solar energy. A lot of those surveys that claim huge amounts of oil are done by Oil companies or think thanks that are associated to the petroleum industry.

Like one of the previous posts stated, there’s trillions of dollars to be made in oil yet, and the oil companies want you to think it’s plentiful.

I think we need to put this thread to bed. Let’s just agree to disagree.

 

[biglatka]

To all those that have said the world's oil supply is renewable or not finite, I have a bridge to sell you. It’s a nice old bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Of course, I’m an environmentalist which only means I care about the human environment. We should all be environmentalists. But some have confused that word with SUV critic. You can try to discredit the messenger all you want by innuendo and name-calling but in the end, the fact still remains that the end for fossil fuels is in sight. It could start next year after the presidential election, or 5 or 10 years from now, but it’s coming. Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico are mere drops in the bucket (barrel?) compared to the increased oil demand coming online. Why do you think Bush/Cheney’s Arab cronies have agreed to pump more oil for the time being? I keep thinking of the song (by the Beach Boys?) about having fun, fun, fun until “Daddy takes the TBird away”. Well, I fear that will be analogous to ride, ride, ride in our SUV’s until Abdullah takes the oil away. It is possible to have an artificial shortage before the real one comes. Those of us, who remember what it was like in 1973 and 1979 know this very well. Those were warnings, not anomalies. There is an iceberg up ahead; will the Titanic be able to turn in time? I can still remember those odd and even days and the long lines for gas. It can happen again you know, but it doesn’t have to hit us the same way. Some, who don’t want to believe it, will call those who caution about this happening, pessimists and people who are always “crying wolf”. Talking about animals, don’t you think Cheney meeting only with fossil fuel companies’ executives about America’s future energy needs and dependence is like putting the “fox in the hen house”? But, if I were to start proposing the many ways we know and already have on the shelf to relieve some of our foreign dependence on foreign oil, someone who has no more to say about it than “that’s all pie in sky,” will come along and try to shoot it down because they don’t like the message. It scares them.

In real money terms, the price of gasoline is right now about where it peaked about 20 or so years ago. I suspect that’s going to end. Not because I said so, but because the fundamental laws of physics, human nature, and economics say so. You might see minor perturbations in the near future, but the overall slope (of the price of oil) is positive, and will be increasing in its rate of climb. The slope of the total finite world oil/natural gas/coal reserves (discovered and yet to be discovered) is negative and it’s rate of decline will increase as more large countries of the world want their piece of the “pie” too. We haven’t even touched on global warming and how increased fossil fuel use is contributing to that too. Ah, but some would say there I go crying wolf again, global warming doesn’t exist or won't harm us. Time will tell. I hope all the scientists and “experts” who tell us so, are wrong, but somehow I fear they’re not.

I believe, with some human ingenuity and wherewithal, barring a catastrophic event and/or terrorism act(s), we can still have our SUV’s with most of their performance characteristics (if that’s all that’s on your mind). The slowing and possible stopping of the degradation of the human environment will all depend on changes in the political and corporate environments, moving away from corruption and greed. Some say that it will never happen. Maybe that is really the “Pie in the Sky” dream.

If America continues down this path of losing it’s technological skills (through a declining and wasteful public educational system), good American jobs due to “outsourcing”, and economic supremacy because of corruption, greed, mismanagement, and poor leadership, she will become a third-rate nation and power in the world. That is not pie in the sky, it can happen. It did happen to Rome. Why are we different? “Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.”

All this talk of pie is making me hungry.

 

[toybox]

:iagree: good post

 

[dman90012]

If America continues down this path of losing it’s technological skills (through a declining and wasteful public educational system), good American jobs due to “outsourcing”, and economic supremacy because of corruption, greed, mismanagement, and poor leadership, she will become a third-rate nation and power in the world. That is not pie in the sky, it can happen. It did happen to Rome. Why are we different? “Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.”

To that I can agree. America is declining but it's not because we use a lot of fossil fuels. We have a lot of cultural negatives, but that would be an entirely different thread altogether.

Here's a question. Does anyone know how crude oil was/is created? If the process is known, then a conclusion of whether or not crude oil supply is finite would be clearer. But to make fun of a theory with no basis is like laughing at someone who says the earth is round (when everyone thought it was flat).

 

[Kanab]

biglatka, you can find about the same number that would agree with you and also disagree. Remember they also use to think the world was flat. A lot of the new energy effort has to do with cost. The higher fossil fuel goes the more people will look for other sources of energy. Why do you think the Arabs try to regulate the price of oil?? They know that if it gets too high, it will become profitable to start drilling more wells in Okla., Alaska, etc. and putting more money into fuel cell technology. Your right China will be wanting their fair share of the oil and the price will go up and within the next 100 years the Arabs will have to pay someone to take their oil because another technology will replace oil for our energy needs, and it's all about the $$$.

 

[BigDogMoney]

Dman, I don't like to think back to those days in grade school when I learned about how oil was created, but I'm not sure what theory your talking about. If millions of years of pressure, decaying organic matter, and heat created oil than how can it be renewable? I haven't read that article in Popular Science, but this is the first time I heard anyone sugget that oil was renewable. I think the Arabs want to moderate the price of oil, in part because they don't want other non-OPEC nations producing more oil to compensate for the current shortage, which would create a surplus and alter the dynamics of supply and demand; and eventually bring the price of oil way down. That's what happened in the late 70s are early 80s.

 

[dman90012]

If millions of years of pressure, decaying organic matter, and heat created oil than how can it be renewable?

Because the pressure, decaying organic matter, and heat is STILL THERE. Maybe it doesn't take millions of years to do it.

After all, it is just a theory at this point. Why are you getting so worked up over an observation in a science magazine? Wouldn't it be a good thing if oil supplies are renewable?

 

[bluewolf]

Why argue about oil?? Why care how much is left?? Whether it continues to be plentiful for the next 100 years or dries up in the next 10, is there really anything anybody can do to control the rising rate of consumption? Nope. The population will continue to grow, the number of vehicles will continue to increase, and when oil becomes short in supply it will eventually become unaffordable. THAT much is certain! Can every car-driving human being on the planet collectively change their lifestyles to prolong this inevitable fact? Fat chance. Good luck trying to rally them all. Am I pessimistic? Not really, I prefer realistic. I try not to dwell on the things I can never change, and I focus on my own life and how I conduct it. I can not convince my neighbor he should behave more like me, and I don't even waste my time trying.

Back to the discussion of why a growing number of people believe SUV owners are behaving irresponsibly: It's handy to have scapegoats. It helps soothe a person's own fearful and guilty concience to smear blame all over someone else. The "your sins are greater than mine" arguement holds very little water, since we ALL rely on vehicles to survive. As for the "safty" arguement of SUVs posing more danger to other "lighter weight" motorists on the road... well, that's just the most absurd bit of whining I've ever heard. What about pickup trucks, RVs, busses, semis and vans? Must everyone make due with a four-door coupe so that the "safety" factor is evenly distributed?

 

[BigDogMoney]

Dman, I don't want to beat this to death, and this is the last post I'll make to this thread (I know, I know...thankfully right!), but decaying matter, or more precisely matter, takes up space and has mass right? So if it's something physical and quantifiable, then there can only be so muchof it right? So, you have the heat, the pressure, but only so much of the stuff that makes you the oil. But, maybe it doesn't take millions of years to make oil...either way, the 4Runner is a great vehicle - bottom line. I didn't need an SUV, but I wanted one because I have that choice. I wanted to be able to drive a vehicle like the 4Runner before the price of oil gets way out of hand, and when only the well off can afford the V12s and the like. I do think we'll have advancements in hybrid technology, and hopefully we'll have vehicles that are just as powerful.

One last word...I don't think we can continue to consume oil and not worry about how much is left because those Middle-Eastern, terrorist harboring countries will eventually have almost all of the oil.

 

[Guest]

The reason oil is expensive has nothing to do with how rare it is. It has to do with politics and economics.

Sure fossil fuels are a finite source. They will eventually dry up...in about 50,000 years or whatever.

The cost is in pulling it out of the ground and the location. If most of the oil comes from the oil cartel, they will regulate production and cost (as they already do).
Just like DeBeers regulates diamond prices. Diamonds are a finite resource but they are no more expensive than turquoise or rubies. It's the politics and economics.

Oil companies are busy looking for new sources, not because it is scarce but because they don't have a big enough piece of the pie. They want to find that huge well so they can tell the oil cartel to f-off and set their own prices or become a heavy hitter along with the Saudi's, etc.

What does all that have to do with SUV's? I don't know. Nothing.

It's all relative. Someone that drives an SUV 10,000 miles a year is going to have far less impact than a minivan mom or sedan driver that puts on 25,000 miles a year.

This is a free market and people can buy whatever they want to buy. That's the bottom line. People buy 54" mega tv's for their 500sq ft. apartment. People buy coffee for $5 a cup. People buy obscene amounts of beef and support a disgusting, amoral, unclean and inhumane industry.

There are tons of things that are more wasteful than driving an SUV- which isn't wasteful at all. Usefulness is personal, which is why it's pretty hard to criticize the SUV buyer. I'll admit the H2 comes damn close- I had those turds.

The 4Runner is a ULEV (or is it LEV?), it gets good mpg's and is well designed, made and purposeful. Compare any other vehicle it's size and capability and I'm sure you'll be hard pressed to come up with better mpg's than the 4Runner.

 

[Expat]

Well, thanks for the posts guys. It has been insightful. I've got a few comebacks to add to my arsenal, some of it funny, some of it in their face.

Shall we close this off now :

Cheers
Mark