Swaybar delete- front or rear?

[MStudt]

I respect your input and experience, and for your purposes, your suggestion may be completely valid. However, for the greatest level of on-road safety, I can only recommend leaving all the anti-roll bars in place. As an alternative to that, only remove the rear anti-roll bar. In an emergency maneuver, there can be serious negative consequences...

I would agree with running front a rear all the time. I came from an old SOA YJ with no sway bars at all so I'm used to the feeling. However, having the front and rear connected makes everything better.

I'll still disagree with you about with ones to disconnect though, and a lot of people will agree. I would personally never remove the rear before the front. The front has more weight, stiffer suspension, and it IFS. You'll going to get far less body roll coming from the front then you will from the rear. I would hate yo drive my roads with the front connected, and rear disconnected.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I would agree with running front a rear all the time. I came from an old SOA YJ with no sway bars at all so I'm used to the feeling. However, having the front and rear connected makes everything better.

I'll still disagree with you about with ones to disconnect though, and a lot of people will agree. I would personally never remove the rear before the front. The front has more weight, stiffer suspension, and it IFS. You'll going to get far less body roll coming from the front then you will from the rear. I would hate yo drive my roads with the front connected, and rear disconnected.

But again, body roll is a very minimal concern here. The handling and safety of the passengers seems to be the bigger issue (IMO), and that is relative to the weight transfer which is created by the anti-roll bars. The Toyota engineers certainly took all of your points into consideration when they designed the roll-couple for our trucks. The much greater size of the front anti-roll bar shows us that they required a much higher level of weight transfer in the front suspension than the rear to provide a "safe" level of under/over-steer. The data is out there for anyone who wants to research it, so I won't debate We can agree to have different approaches to this.

Are you making your suggestion coming from a comfort perspective or a safety perspective?

Generally speaking, understeer is aimed at safety much more than oversteer. A badly oversteering vehicle can be very dangerous for inexperienced or even experienced drivers. If we disagree on the point that a roughly-neutral handling vehicle is much safer than one which greatly over/understeers, then we are working towards different goals, and we can't really debate the point.

*Edit: I'll add a caveat, and there are some extreme cases... If you have a hugely lifted suspension, probably 6"+, and your suspension damping/spring rates have not been chosen carefully (obviously, on that second point)... Well, if you have done a poor job selecting any of your suspension design, all of this talk could be a moot point. I was approaching this from the position of a well designed base suspension setup.

**Edit2: You may be entirely correct, for your specific suspension. Maybe your front spring rates are 800lb and the rears are 100lb, and that might greatly change my answer to the question we are discussing Changing spring rates and damping does affect roll couple as well, just not as directly as anti-roll bar diameter or removal. I was approaching this question from the perspective of "I have stock, OEM suspension, or a setup that is relatively close, or well balanced, etc."

 

[MStudt]

But again, body roll is a very minimal concern here. The handling and safety of the passengers seems to be the bigger issue (IMO), and that is relative to the weight transfer which is created by the anti-roll bars. The Toyota engineers certainly took all of your points into consideration when they designed the roll-couple for our trucks. The much greater size of the front anti-roll bar shows us that they required a much higher level of weight transfer in the front suspension than the rear to provide a "safe" level of under/over-steer. The data is out there for anyone who wants to research it, so I won't debate We can agree to have different approaches to this.

Are you making your suggestion coming from a comfort perspective or a safety perspective?

Generally speaking, understeer is aimed at safety much more than oversteer. A badly oversteering vehicle can be very dangerous for inexperienced or even experienced drivers. If we disagree on the point that a roughly-neutral handling vehicle is much safer than one which greatly over/understeers, then we are working towards different goals, and we can't really debate the point.

*Edit: I'll add a caveat, and there are some extreme cases... If you have a hugely lifted suspension, probably 6"+, and your suspension damping/spring rates have not been chosen carefully (obviously, on that second point)... Well, if you have done a poor job selecting any of your suspension design, all of this talk could be a moot point. I was approaching this from the position of a well designed base suspension setup.

**Edit2: You may be entirely correct, for your specific suspension. Maybe your front spring rates are 800lb and the rears are 100lb, and that might greatly change my answer to the question we are discussing Changing spring rates and damping does affect roll couple as well, just not as directly as anti-roll bar diameter or removal. I was approaching this question from the perspective of "I have stock, OEM suspension, or a setup that is relatively close, or well balanced, etc."

Everything is a matter opinion, just like yours. Toyota engineers never intended this 4runner to be lifted either. That's about all I have to say on this topic. It's completely pointless to give an opinion at this point.

 

[Roc Doc]

Toyota engineers never intended this 4runner to be lifted either. T.

I always thought it would be cool to take some of the original Toyota engineers that designed the first and second gen trucks out to Johnson Valley and show them all the trucks running around on 40" tires, and compound transfer cases.

I imagine them slightly smiling and nodding.

 

[D Farms]

I honestly think doing an "evasive manuever" will put you in greater risk than simply slowing down, regardless of whether you have sway bars or not. Ive found the best setup for my truck is no front sway bar, rear sway bar with 2nd gen links and a panhard lift. the axle moves over to stabilize the compressed side of the axle when the body rolls which stabilizes the body and prevents any sort of oversteer. it feels dead stable at 85 mph going around sweeping corners on the interstate up and down mountains. granted this was with all new poly bushings well balanced tires and a good alignment. also there is no appreciable decline in articulation and it actually evens out the flex.

all that being said, I have a heavy duty bumper and if there is a deer or something, I will apply the brakes and remain in my lane, itll go under the truck or be deflected to the side. the 4runner is not a sports car and running sway bars doesnt afford you any more traction when trying
to avoid something, your tires will eventually loose grip. the best thing you can do is drive the speed limit, and get yourself some good headlights so you can see whats ahead of you. that being said the 4runner does make a good bulldozer with a good bumper on the front, and not that additional crumple zone arb makes.

 

[Unner]

I agree, my truck is not as stable as it was stock. Why make it worse by getting rid of the sway bars?
I live next to a state forest & drive a lot slower through that area. The main reason I got my Shrockworks bumper is to hit the deer instead of trying to avoid it. I know the first reaction it to turn the wheel but I think I'm mentally prepared the hit the brakes & keep the truck straight. They are on the side of the road every night driving home from work.

The other night I was driving home in my 09 Accord (4 wheel disk brakes) that stops on a dime. A deer came walking out on the parkway & I was able to stop & not panic. The T4R would have probably needed another 25 feet to stop & I would have hit it. The TBU is getting installed soon.

TBU is a must. My truck weighs almost 5000 pounds now and when I slam on the brakes it still stops well. Couldn't imagine driving with stock brakes at this point...

When a deer runs out in front of me while I'm doing 60mph I'll run through that thing at 60mph and pull into the next car wash I see to pressure wash my front bumper.


That said, I am planning on putting my front swaybar back on someday. I bought a new (used) one and some endlinks, I just need to find the motivation to take my skids off and get after it.

My wife doesn't LOVE driving my 4Runner on the freeway but she'll do it. I cruise at 70 with one hand on the wheel and feel completely safe. No front swaybar, extended links in the back.

I agree, mine cruises fine at 70, even 80 even though I never really drive that fast. I've even had mine at 85-90 on the interstate trying to get around a truck leaking chicken juice, or something like that and it isn't scary as in the truck is shaking like some have described. Mine has both front and rear sway bars though and I wouldn't have it any other way. I like the added safety for an emergency maneuver.

In regards to hitting a deer I've heard before that it's best to slow down as much as you can, and then hit the gas last second to bring the front end back up so it doesn't fly into the windshield. Now this probably doesn't matter much in our trucks, but in something like scramble's accord it could make a difference I would think.

 

[bajallama]

I honestly think doing an "evasive manuever" will put you in greater risk than simply slowing down, regardless of whether you have sway bars or not. Ive found the best setup for my truck is no front sway bar, rear sway bar with 2nd gen links and a panhard lift. the axle moves over to stabilize the compressed side of the axle when the body rolls which stabilizes the body and prevents any sort of oversteer. it feels dead stable at 85 mph going around sweeping corners on the interstate up and down mountains. granted this was with all new poly bushings well balanced tires and a good alignment. also there is no appreciable decline in articulation and it actually evens out the flex.

all that being said, I have a heavy duty bumper and if there is a deer or something, I will apply the brakes and remain in my lane, itll go under the truck or be deflected to the side. the 4runner is not a sports car and running sway bars doesnt afford you any more traction when trying
to avoid something, your tires will eventually loose grip. the best thing you can do is drive the speed limit, and get yourself some good headlights so you can see whats ahead of you. that being said the 4runner does make a good bulldozer with a good bumper on the front, and not that additional crumple zone arb makes.

I'm new to this forum but not at all new to 4Runners. What you guys do with your trucks is up to you but damn, that's pretty scary stuff. Your front sway bar is a lot thicker than your rear for a reason. You can have some pretty nasty snap oversteer with it removed. Under hard braking you have no weight on the rear. You are loading up the front suspension which has no relative link to each side. Just hope to don't hurt someone in an evasive maneuver.

With all the mods you do, spend a little time and do it right:

 

[D Farms]

I'm new to this forum but not at all new to 4Runners. What you guys do with your trucks is up to you but damn, that's pretty scary stuff. Your front sway bar is a lot thicker than your rear for a reason. You can have some pretty nasty snap oversteer with it removed. Under hard braking you have no weight on the rear. You are loading up the front suspension which has no relative link to each side. Just hope to don't hurt someone in an evasive maneuver.

With all the mods you do, spend a little time and do it right:

#allthreadallthetime

FYI the reason the front is thicker is because the point at which the sway link is attached to the arm is about half way between the frame and the lower ball joint. this creates leverage and therefore the sway bar needs to be thicker.

Speaking of maneuvering, today i was moving some stuff out of my old house and I was driving down the road. a blue fj weaved around me, then all the sudden weaved into the left lane. I was in the right lane and right in front of me there was city worker laying down spray paint markers. there were no cones and he didn't even park his truck in the road to protect himself, on top of all of that he was working in portion of the road that was dipped down so he was invisible to oncoming traffic until it was too late. I was able to slow down, then i ripped him a new one about not taking any precaution for his safety, and also pointed out the fact that had i hit him, he would have been dead. His response was "well i do this every day". Some people are just dumb. Also in most of these situations, swerving to the left or right is not an option, there are always other cars and other far worse things that you could run into or drive off of.

 

[bajallama]

You probably have about 60-70% of the cars weight on the front and probably 90-95% under hard braking. That is why your sway bar is thicker and the lever arm is greater in the rear if you look anyways. The sway bar end link is in pure tension, so all thread works fine. Like I said, it's your guy's trucks, do what you want. Quick disconnects are cheap and easy to make.

 

[MStudt]

Quick disconnects are cheap and easy to make.

How cheap? I'm pretty curious about this since cheap and sway bar links shouldn't be used together.

 

[bajallama]

WabFab sells the kit. I think it's like $120 or something. You could find all the parts on McMaster-Carr and do it yourself also.

No sway bar because I'm cheap is I think far more alarming. There's really nothing to an end link, they're pretty cheapy from the factory.

 

[Clayton74]

I agree, my truck is not as stable as it was stock. Why make it worse by getting rid of the sway bars?
I live next to a state forest & drive a lot slower through that area. The main reason I got my Shrockworks bumper is to hit the deer instead of trying to avoid it. I know the first reaction it to turn the wheel but I think I'm mentally prepared the hit the brakes & keep the truck straight. They are on the side of the road every night driving home from work.

The other night I was driving home in my 09 Accord (4 wheel disk brakes) that stops on a dime. A deer came walking out on the parkway & I was able to stop & not panic. The T4R would have probably needed another 25 feet to stop & I would have hit it. The TBU is getting installed soon.

Fair enough, I guess my point was lots of the mods we do decrease the safety of the vehicle as a trade off for some other attribute. Tires make it harder to stop. Lifts make it easier to roll. Adding interior accessories can make projectiles (if not suitably mounted) during a roll or wreck. At the end of the day people need to decide how far they want to go down that road. The way I see it the sway bar is just another item along the same line. It's not like you don't gain anything by removing it.

 

[D Farms]

You probably have about 60-70% of the cars weight on the front and probably 90-95% under hard braking. That is why your sway bar is thicker and the lever arm is greater in the rear if you look anyways. The sway bar end link is in pure tension, so all thread works fine. Like I said, it's your guy's trucks, do what you want. Quick disconnects are cheap and easy to make.

That's an interesting theory about the rear having more leverage over the sway bar, but its false. double wishbone ifs is all about levers, and the sway link is no exception. in the rear the axle essentially travels at a 1:1 ratio until there is body roll and then it starts to deviate. in the situation of a sway bar there is little to no body roll so the motion ratio is 1:1. there is also the lever arm of the torsion bar itself, the back is wider, skinnier and has longer arms giving a much lower rate. the front is shorter, thicker and has shorter arms giving a higher rate. obviously the front of the "truck" has more weight, but its also ifs.

Ifs inherently has a higher roll resistance given the same wheel rate, when compared to a linked solid axle. With ifs each side acts independently giving a more linear rate for body roll, with a solid axle the body roll is significantly more progressive and one side will cause the other to do the opposite. this is part of the reason there are no pre-runners with solid front axles, at least not any good ones. as soon as you hit a ditch, the suspension over reacts causing poor ride characteristics.

Also the sway link is not in pure tension, otherwise it wouldn't be doing anything, how do you think sway links get bent. if they were only in tension we could just use chain or cable.

Get your facts straight, then come back and continue telling us what to do.

 

[Unner]

Also the sway link is not in pure tension, otherwise it wouldn't be doing anything, how do you think sway links get bent. if they were only in tension we could just use chain or cable.

Bro, my Paracord end links work just fine...

 

[SnowLizard]

what a pandora's box...

thanks for the discussion, everything has been very insightful.

from what I have gleemed/understood, I'm going to do the following...

new front links for the rear (cause of lift)

then for the front I'm thinking two ways...
a) look into 'longer' links for front (2nd gen is longer)
OR
b) create my own q-disco front link... if price is compatible to new 'autozone' prices

I'm certain I'll keep both sway bar's, arguments make sense both directions... but I am on road mostly right now... life prohibits me from more than 10% off road right now.

in the future I know q-disco's are planned front and rear.

 

[bajallama]

That's an interesting theory about the rear having more leverage over the sway bar, but its false. double wishbone ifs is all about levers, and the sway link is no exception. in the rear the axle essentially travels at a 1:1 ratio until there is body roll and then it starts to deviate. in the situation of a sway bar there is little to no body roll so the motion ratio is 1:1. there is also the lever arm of the torsion bar itself, the back is wider, skinnier and has longer arms giving a much lower rate. the front is shorter, thicker and has shorter arms giving a higher rate. obviously the front of the "truck" has more weight, but its also ifs.

Ifs inherently has a higher roll resistance given the same wheel rate, when compared to a linked solid axle. With ifs each side acts independently giving a more linear rate for body roll, with a solid axle the body roll is significantly more progressive and one side will cause the other to do the opposite. this is part of the reason there are no pre-runners with solid front axles, at least not any good ones. as soon as you hit a ditch, the suspension over reacts causing poor ride characteristics.

Also the sway link is not in pure tension, otherwise it wouldn't be doing anything, how do you think sway links get bent. if they were only in tension we could just use chain or cable.

Get your facts straight, then come back and continue telling us what to do.

You mentioned a lever arm, if you measure the lever arm on the rear sway bar, it is longer than the front as you state here:

has longer arms giving a much lower rate.

My statement was clarifying that the front bar is far more necessary than the rear because of heavier nose weight and large weight transfer under braking, yet you did the opposite to your truck.

in the rear the axle essentially travels at a 1:1 ratio until there is body roll and then it starts to deviate. in the situation of a sway bar there is little to no body roll so the motion ratio is 1:1.

There will always be body roll, but since there is no weight in the rear the tires don't break loose. That is until you enter a corner or do an evasive maneuver where either one of your front IFS wheels, fully compresses due to the extreme nose weight transfer and no sway bar to alleviate the transverse weight transfer. With no weight on the rear of your vehicle, your sway bar is ineffective and causes the snap oversteer.

You can talk about wheel rates all you want, this isn't a simple transient scenario. IFS has little to do with the fact that you have an immense amount of weight transfer and when your suspension bottoms out, your spring rate is infinite. Your roll centers can be lower, but you kiss that good bye after a healthy lift.

And yes they are in pure tension. You could use a chain or cable if you wanted, but they are kept stiff as to either keep them propped up or in a stationary position. if you could describe a scenario when they are ever in compression, I would love to hear it.

Facts were always straight and I was clear from the beginning, I don't give a lick what you do to your truck. Just know it's not safe.

 

[MStudt]

WabFab sells the kit. I think it's like $120 or something. You could find all the parts on McMaster-Carr and do it yourself also.

No sway bar because I'm cheap is I think far more alarming. There's really nothing to an end link, they're pretty cheapy from the factory.

Wabfab sells them for $270 for a full set or nothing special. Still cheap low carbon threaded rod, low carbon nuts, and grade 8 bolts. First off never mix match your hardware.

I sell full disconnected links for less then that. Mine are stronger, made from high quality parts, and no mix matched hardware. You pay for what you get.

 

[A.Wilson013]

Wabfab sells them for $270 for a full set or nothing special. Still cheap low carbon threaded rod, low carbon nuts, and grade 8 bolts. First off never mix match your hardware.

I sell full disconnected links for less then that. Mine are stronger, made from high quality parts, and no mix matched hardware. You pay for what you get.

And you're not Wab Fab, so you've got that going for you.


It's really too bad that we aren't in the 5th gen section. If we were, we could get a bunch of engineers in here arguing about who is smarter than who, makes more money, etc.

 

[bajallama]

Wabfab sells them for $270 for a full set or nothing special. Still cheap low carbon threaded rod, low carbon nuts, and grade 8 bolts. First off never mix match your hardware.

I sell full disconnected links for less then that. Mine are stronger, made from high quality parts, and no mix matched hardware. You pay for what you get.

Ya I'm sure, not saying WabFab is the best way to go, it's just the first picture I found on Google.
You should make known to everyone on this thread you sell them, then this whole silly don't run front sway bars on the street thing can end.:thumb3:

 

[MStudt]

And you're not Wab Fab, so you've got that going for you.


It's really too bad that we aren't in the 5th gen section. If we were, we could get a bunch of engineers in here arguing about who is smarter than who, makes more money, etc.

I get kind of tired of the engineering talk. Too much jargon that doesn't make sense to me. If they could dumb it down a bit I might be able to understand then.