Talk me out of a Land Cruiser

[Threev8s]

Cpo

I think something else that comes into play here is the CPO program that Toyota offers for a vehicle in this price range, which goes back to what [MENTION=100496]blackworks[/MENTION] said about people skipping the LC to go to an LX570 for a new one in that price range. In general, if you buy a CPO LC from a Toyota dealer, you get a year of warranty coverage. If you buy a CPO LX570, you get 3 years of warranty coverage, and the prices of vehicles of similar ages with similar mileage are very comparable, at least in my area. In general, mostly any CPO vehicle in that price range provides at least 2 years of coverage. I think a lot of people who are into 4Runners have explored the possibility of buying a slightly used LC, including me. My preference would be for an LC due to the lack of air suspension, use of regular fuel, and lack of the Lexus badge. However, if I’m bringing an $80K + vehicle in for dealer service, I want a loaner every time, and most Toyota dealers do not offer that. Either way, in terms of an LC/LX570 that is 2-4 years old, I think it’s very difficult to justify spending over $50K for something that is probably a few years closer to the need for wear and tear replacement items, replacement of failed parts, and a vehicle that probably does not look brand new when you can buy a brand new 4Runner for less in spite of all the positives of the LC/LX570.

 

[wfo9]

Show me. I'm not seeing any 5th gens doing anything my trail rig can't do in 2wd.

[MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION]

I really wish I could run some trails with you... I'm 100% sure my truck can do some things that you could not do in 2wd. I don't care what size tires you have... It's just not possible.

You talk a big game....

I'm sure your trail rig is amazing... But come on. No reason to drop the 2wd card...

My truck is not that special.. But I think myself and Bimrunner + Jeremmy556 + many others on here.. have moderate budget builds that would surprise the shit out of you. You make many assumptions without any first hand knowledge... Watching videos or seeing pictures of moderately built 5th gens does not count...

 

[wfo9]

I never said you said the runner was better than a 200, but that's what this thread is about.

I don't think this thread was about "which is better".

I read it as "it it that much better.. is it worth it to trade for a used one + 10k... "

From my experience, every rig has things that it excels at and things that it is not so great at. Even off road... Some vehicles excel in specific situations depending on their dimensions and build... One single size does not fit all situations and when you mix in overland.. it really depends on the use case of the individual...

I purchased my 5th gen being very skeptical and it has really surprised me. It has taken some trial and error to get it where I want it and it still has a ways to go. But the right mix of parts... can result in a very fun truck.

Is a 200 nice. Sure.. but it's not better for everyone. and clearly not in the same class in terms of value for the $$...

The conversion also gets very confusing when people start referring to models and builds from overseas... Agree, you can get those parts, but shipping big parts gets a bit crazy, plus various customs issues... come into play.

There are many advantages to owning a mainstream vehicle in your origin market. Support for jeeps is the obvious one, but the FJ, 4runner and Tacoma do have some pretty good stuff plus more coming.

There is a weird cult following for the land cruiser name. I don't really understand it myself. Maybe because I have never owned one...but some of it seems a bit twisted to me. There is somewhat of an attitude that I would personally rather not deal with.

 

[Steamfitter]

I totally agree. But if I could afford either, I would get an LC hands down. I'm fine with people not knowing what it is. I know what it is. That said, my Trail is more than enough for me.

If money is absolutely no issue, go with the LC for sure. However, 4R is more of a regular person's near-luxury SUV. I think the LC is aimed at the same luxury crowd as the LX570 and that's why they are so similar in price (LX570 vs LC base price difference is only $5K). The people I see driving these vehicles are usually kept women in diamond earrings who wouldn't know how to change a spare tire, let alone go offroad.

 

[Beer_Runner]

The Land Cruiser is superior in virtually every aspect, but cost. If money is no object, the choice is clear. It will likely be our next purchase after our T4R, albeit a used TLC.

 

[EEEliminator]

The Land Cruiser is superior in virtually every aspect, but cost. If money is no object, the choice is clear. It will likely be our next purchase after our T4R, albeit a used TLC.

How much room is there in the 3rd row, similar to a Tahoe? Could you fit an adult back there?

If money was no object I'd consider it as well, but at that price point I can think of quite a few other vehicles that would be higher up on the list. For a new one anyways.

 

[Jetboy]

[MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION]

I really wish I could run some trails with you... I'm 100% sure my truck can do some things that you could not do in 2wd. I don't care what size tires you have... It's just not possible.

You talk a big game....

I'm sure your trail rig is amazing... But come on. No reason to drop the 2wd card...

My truck is not that special.. But I think myself and Bimrunner + Jeremmy556 + many others on here.. have moderate budget builds that would surprise the shit out of you. You make many assumptions without any first hand knowledge... Watching videos or seeing pictures of moderately built 5th gens does not count...

You do realize I have a 5th gen on 285s with a rear locker and a winch right? And I've gotten is stuck. I'm pretty sure I know how capable it is. And it is pretty capable. No question. It's also really good as a dual use vehicle for daily driving and weekend camping/exloring. I think you might be surprised how well big tires and 5psi hook up on a stripped light weight vehicle. Next time I'm up in Montana I'll do a test and we'll find out. To be fair I'll put the LC in Low 1st gear 2wd and the 5th gen in crawl control in the slowest setting and let each of them power themselves until they stop. I have a steep loose dirt pile in the field my 5th gen won't climb so I know it won't go over. I haven't tried in 2wd in the LC. I'll give it a go and see what happens.

But it's also not really comparable to a more dedicated off road vehicle. I've done this for 20 years. I've been the trailmaster of an off road club and led lots of club runs with a wide variety of vehicles. We're starting with a 4700lb base vehicle. That alone is really hard to work with. It's almost twice as heavy as a typical trail rig. It has 14 inches of clearance at the differential. I'm not sure my 5th gen has 14" of clearance at the frame. The ground pressure on the 5th gen is about 3 times as high. To give some reference a 5th gen on 44x16.5 tires - still has higher ground pressure.

I've been through many iterations. This is my last 84 Toyota pickup. It has detroits front and rear, which does give a significant advantage in that respect. There's a really big gap between where it would go and where my 5th gen will go. And there's about the same gap again to my current trail rig. I've been through just about every iteration of Toyota 4x4 tire size increasing to the point that it's not really practical to use often. What I can say with a great level of confidence is that the lighter duty axles are not up to the task of big enough tires to do the harder trails. I've broken numerous axle shafts including rears and a few pinions on the 8" diff with a 100hp 22r. I just don't see any plausible way you'll get a 5th gen to hold up very long.

That's where IMO a 200 is a better starting point if that's the goal. If I ever go that route down the road I'll have a tough choice to make. It's the same reason I sold the pickup to buy a land cruiser. I chose a 5th gen because it is the best compromise of value and utility for my use. There was a 200 that was in the ballpark on price with 90k miles and a few GXs with low miles that I chose between. The 4runner was the winner for many reasons for me.

I will still stand by my position that between the two, in an absolute sense the 200 is the better base vehicle if you want to build a vehicle for harder offroad use. It's more than a mall crawler, although that's probably 99% of what they are used for here. It's also not a good value. New to new value comparison, you could have a highlander and a 5th gen 4runner that you could go crazy with as a second vehicle.

 

[Beer_Runner]

How much room is there in the 3rd row, similar to a Tahoe? Could you fit an adult back there?

If money was no object I'd consider it as well, but at that price point I can think of quite a few other vehicles that would be higher up on the list. For a new one anyways.

I guess you have to determine your priorities and needs. Clearly, while a Tahoe, and better yet, Suburban, can haul more people comfortably, they cannot even begin to hang with a TLC off-road. Not to mention, their build quality is lacking and resale is terrible. The current full-size SUVs from the twins are also having horrible cabin pressure buffeting issues that no one can seem to fix, and which is making drivers literally sick.

Only other luxury SUV I'd consider alongside the TLC is a MB G500. And for the life of me, I cannot bring myself to buy one as incredible as they are, as they get 12 MPGs with a tail wind, and require premium fuel.

 

[Dalko43]

I've always liked Land Cruisers. I'm still very early in my time with my '15 Trail, and love most things about it. The one thing that keeps eating me is I'm missing the v8 from my GX. I miss the torque and the noise. I'm frustrated by how "flat" the 4runner's v6 is between 2 and 4k -- the meat of the range.

Otherwise, though, the 4r is great.

Used LC200s aren't much more than what my '15 is worth. Maybe trade +10.

Pros of the LC:
- beefier build quality
- v8 -- big v8

cons:
- 3rd row is in the way and hard to remove
- gas mileage
- very little community support compared to 4r.

Thoughts?

OP, what do you want out of your vehicle?

If you want the offroading pedigree, go anywhere utility of the older land cruiser (think 80 and 100 series) then the 4runner is your ideal rig. I forget who it was, but someone made the statement that the 5th gen 4runner is the spiritual successor to the old land cruisers...it's a basic, spartan but reliable and tested design/platform.

It pretty much has all the offroading tech that the 200 series land cruiser does, minus the big v8...and IMO, while the V8 has awesome grunt, its horrible mpg and added complexity will cost more $ in the long run. The 4runner's V6, which I agree is somewhat gruntless at low/mid RPM's, gets the job done well enough and is more than adequate for getting over difficult terrain when in Low4.

As much as I admire the 200 series from a technical standpoint (awesome v8, all kinds of comforts and amenities) it is simply too big, too expensive, and too diluted (relative to its predecessors) to be considered a serious offroader. Now I've seen some 200 series owners fully mod their rigs and take them down some gnarly trails, so it can be done...but IMO, for that kind of $ spent, you're better off going with an old 80 series or 100 series or a 4th or 5th gen 4runner and saving quite a bit.

That said, if you want a moderately capable offroader than can also tow and take your family on trips, the 200 series is hard to beat if you're willing to spend the money.

 

[Beer_Runner]

OP, what do you want out of your vehicle?

If you want the offroading pedigree, go anywhere utility of the older land cruiser (think 80 and 100 series) then the 4runner is your ideal rig. I forget who it was, but someone made the statement that the 5th gen 4runner is the spiritual successor to the old land cruisers...it's a basic, spartan but reliable and tested design/platform.

It pretty much has all the offroading tech that the 200 series land cruiser does, minus the big v8...and IMO, while the V8 has awesome grunt, its horrible mpg and added complexity will cost more $ in the long run. The 4runner's V6, which I agree is somewhat gruntless at low/mid RPM's, gets the job done well enough and is more than adequate for getting over difficult terrain when in Low4.

As much as I admire the 200 series from a technical standpoint (awesome v8, all kinds of comforts and amenities) it is simply too big, too expensive, and too diluted (relative to its predecessors) to be considered a serious offroader. Now I've seen some 200 series owners fully mod their rigs and take them down some gnarly trails, so it can be done...but IMO, for that kind of $ spent, you're better off going with an old 80 series or 100 series or a 4th or 5th gen 4runner and saving quite a bit.

That said, if you want a moderately capable offroader than can also tow and take your family on trips, the 200 series is hard to beat if you're willing to spend the money.

Exactly. For instance, I'm only buying mine because I needed more room to haul kegs of beer. Maybe I should have ordered that cargo slider after all.

 

[Dalko43]

You do realize I have a 5th gen on 285s with a rear locker and a winch right? And I've gotten is stuck. I'm pretty sure I know how capable it is. And it is pretty capable. No question. It's also really good as a dual use vehicle for daily driving and weekend camping/exloring. I think you might be surprised how well big tires and 5psi hook up on a stripped light weight vehicle. Next time I'm up in Montana I'll do a test and we'll find out. To be fair I'll put the LC in Low 1st gear 2wd and the 5th gen in crawl control in the slowest setting and let each of them power themselves until they stop. I have a steep loose dirt pile in the field my 5th gen won't climb so I know it won't go over. I haven't tried in 2wd in the LC. I'll give it a go and see what happens.

But it's also not really comparable to a more dedicated off road vehicle. I've done this for 20 years. I've been the trailmaster of an off road club and led lots of club runs with a wide variety of vehicles. We're starting with a 4700lb base vehicle. That alone is really hard to work with. It's almost twice as heavy as a typical trail rig. It has 14 inches of clearance at the differential. I'm not sure my 5th gen has 14" of clearance at the frame. The ground pressure on the 5th gen is about 3 times as high. To give some reference a 5th gen on 44x16.5 tires - still has higher ground pressure.

I've been through many iterations. This is my last 84 Toyota pickup. It has detroits front and rear, which does give a significant advantage in that respect. There's a really big gap between where it would go and where my 5th gen will go. And there's about the same gap again to my current trail rig. I've been through just about every iteration of Toyota 4x4 tire size increasing to the point that it's not really practical to use often. What I can say with a great level of confidence is that the lighter duty axles are not up to the task of big enough tires to do the harder trails. I've broken numerous axle shafts including rears and a few pinions on the 8" diff with a 100hp 22r. I just don't see any plausible way you'll get a 5th gen to hold up very long.

That's where IMO a 200 is a better starting point if that's the goal. If I ever go that route down the road I'll have a tough choice to make. It's the same reason I sold the pickup to buy a land cruiser. I chose a 5th gen because it is the best compromise of value and utility for my use. There was a 200 that was in the ballpark on price with 90k miles and a few GXs with low miles that I chose between. The 4runner was the winner for many reasons for me.

I will still stand by my position that between the two, in an absolute sense the 200 is the better base vehicle if you want to build a vehicle for harder offroad use. It's more than a mall crawler, although that's probably 99% of what they are used for here. It's also not a good value. New to new value comparison, you could have a highlander and a 5th gen 4runner that you could go crazy with as a second vehicle.

So first you note how at 4,700lb's the 4runner is too heavy to be a serious off-roader, but then later on you say that the 200 series is a better starting point for and offroad project? Not sure I follow you there.

Also comparing a dedicated, heavily modded offroading Toyota pickup (I assume pre-Tacoma) to a stock 4runner isn't really fair IMHO. The 4runner is a compromise for sure, with its independent front suspension, lack of a front locker, ect. But it has a fully boxed frame, solid rear axle, reliable engine...give it time, and I have very little doubt that the 5th gen will become highly coveted on the used market as a DIY or offroad project rig....in the same way the 80 and 100 series have.

FWIW, the 200 has a lot of good things going for it: fully boxed frame; solid rear axle; locking diff; uniquely designed chassis and frame...but so does the 4runner. The big difference is that the 4runner is lighter and cheaper, which is extremely important to the types of people who will buy and actually offroad these vehicles.

 

[wfo9]

You do realize I have a 5th gen on 285s with a rear locker and a winch right? And I've gotten is stuck. I'm pretty sure I know how capable it is. And it is pretty capable. No question. It's also really good as a dual use vehicle for daily driving and weekend camping/exloring. I think you might be surprised how well big tires and 5psi hook up on a stripped light weight vehicle. Next time I'm up in Montana I'll do a test and we'll find out. To be fair I'll put the LC in Low 1st gear 2wd and the 5th gen in crawl control in the slowest setting and let each of them power themselves until they stop. I have a steep loose dirt pile in the field my 5th gen won't climb so I know it won't go over. I haven't tried in 2wd in the LC. I'll give it a go and see what happens.

But it's also not really comparable to a more dedicated off road vehicle. I've done this for 20 years. I've been the trailmaster of an off road club and led lots of club runs with a wide variety of vehicles. We're starting with a 4700lb base vehicle. That alone is really hard to work with. It's almost twice as heavy as a typical trail rig. It has 14 inches of clearance at the differential. I'm not sure my 5th gen has 14" of clearance at the frame. The ground pressure on the 5th gen is about 3 times as high. To give some reference a 5th gen on 44x16.5 tires - still has higher ground pressure.

I've been through many iterations. This is my last 84 Toyota pickup. It has detroits front and rear, which does give a significant advantage in that respect. There's a really big gap between where it would go and where my 5th gen will go. And there's about the same gap again to my current trail rig. I've been through just about every iteration of Toyota 4x4 tire size increasing to the point that it's not really practical to use often. What I can say with a great level of confidence is that the lighter duty axles are not up to the task of big enough tires to do the harder trails. I've broken numerous axle shafts including rears and a few pinions on the 8" diff with a 100hp 22r. I just don't see any plausible way you'll get a 5th gen to hold up very long.

That's where IMO a 200 is a better starting point if that's the goal. If I ever go that route down the road I'll have a tough choice to make. It's the same reason I sold the pickup to buy a land cruiser. I chose a 5th gen because it is the best compromise of value and utility for my use. There was a 200 that was in the ballpark on price with 90k miles and a few GXs with low miles that I chose between. The 4runner was the winner for many reasons for me.

I will still stand by my position that between the two, in an absolute sense the 200 is the better base vehicle if you want to build a vehicle for harder offroad use. It's more than a mall crawler, although that's probably 99% of what they are used for here. It's also not a good value. New to new value comparison, you could have a highlander and a 5th gen 4runner that you could go crazy with as a second vehicle.

Agree with most of that...

Again, I don't think you can go anywhere in 2wd that any 5th gen can.. More aggressively built 5th gens will surprise you. You are missing a few key parts on yours to make a direct comparison (front locker, gears, long travel, more tire..) I know people with trail rigs similar to yours... I've wheeled with them quite a bit. There is no comparison to a heavy ass 5th gen.... but... they simply can't go anywhere in 2wd that I can go. The physics just don't add up. I'm not sure a loose dirt pile proves much, but maybe it will enlighten you....

As far as the LC being a better base. Sure, for some maybe. But it depends on what you plan to do and what type of wheeling you do. There is no such thing as one size fits all scenarios. If you think that... you are not as experienced as you claim...

And stock for stock... the LC is at a disadvantage in several scenarios. Your main claim about weight and ground pressure is one of them. 1k pounds is nothing to scoff at and they don't hold any more tire stock than a 5th gen. Plus no locker... Once you are willing to start cutting and ripping out KDSS...throwing on bracket lifts... then OK. its got a better drive-train for huge tires..but I'm sure every part is going to cost you some major $$.

Like I said, there is an attitude that comes with the LC name that feels real snooty. I'm not talking about the mall crawler ones. I'm talking about the folks who wheel them a bit and for whatever reason seem to look down on everything else as inferior... Like it matters...

There is also an attitude that people who modify their 5th gens are somehow chasing a pipe dream... That they can never be all that great. While I agree there are limits... and downsides to each modification. It's not all morons taking these things to a reasonable level and there will eventually be some really wild builds and parts to make it happen on the market. I'm not talking dedicated trail rigs.. but very capable overlanders...

 

[EEEliminator]

I guess you have to determine your priorities and needs. Clearly, while a Tahoe, and better yet, Suburban, can haul more people comfortably, they cannot even begin to hang with a TLC off-road. Not to mention, their build quality is lacking and resale is terrible. The current full-size SUVs from the twins are also having horrible cabin pressure buffeting issues that no one can seem to fix, and which is making drivers literally sick.

Only other luxury SUV I'd consider alongside the TLC is a MB G500. And for the life of me, I cannot bring myself to buy one as incredible as they are, as they get 12 MPGs with a tail wind, and require premium fuel.

I figured that much, but for what %99 of those $100k SUVs will be doing which is rolling on paved roads and parking at strip malls its comparable. I couldn't bring myself to buying either GM when I was looking at my 4Runner due to the comparison in quality alone for my $$ so I get what you are saying. The size was also an issue for my wife driving it at the time, suburban was way too long.

I'm still curious to know if you can comfortably seat an adult back there or is it the same as the 4Runner (small kids only).

 

[Quentin]

I figured that much, but for what %99 of those $100k SUVs will be doing which is rolling on paved roads and parking at strip malls its comparable. I couldn't bring myself to buying either GM when I was looking at my 4Runner due to the comparison in quality alone for my $$ so I get what you are saying. The size was also an issue for my wife driving it at the time, suburban was way too long.



I'm still curious to know if you can comfortably seat an adult back there or is it the same as the 4Runner (small kids only).

The 4Runner easily fits adults in the back. :huh:

 

[wfo9]

The 4Runner easily fits adults in the back. :huh:

Probably talking about 3rd row.

 

[Beer_Runner]

Unless we are talking about adult contortionists, ya ain't putting anyone over 10 years old in the 3rd row of a TLC or T4R.

 

[Quentin]

Ok, that makes more sense. Neither of my 4Runners have had a 3rd row, so I tend to forget it is even offered.

 

[Jetboy]

So first you note how at 4,700lb's the 4runner is too heavy to be a serious off-roader, but then later on you say that the 200 series is a better starting point for and offroad project? Not sure I follow you there.

Also comparing a dedicated, heavily modded offroading Toyota pickup (I assume pre-Tacoma) to a stock 4runner isn't really fair IMHO. The 4runner is a compromise for sure, with its independent front suspension, lack of a front locker, ect. But it has a fully boxed frame, solid rear axle, reliable engine...give it time, and I have very little doubt that the 5th gen will become highly coveted on the used market as a DIY or offroad project rig....in the same way the 80 and 100 series have.

FWIW, the 200 has a lot of good things going for it: fully boxed frame; solid rear axle; locking diff; uniquely designed chassis and frame...but so does the 4runner. The big difference is that the 4runner is lighter and cheaper, which is extremely important to the types of people who will buy and actually offroad these vehicles.

The big difference is this:

The parts underneath the LC are a lot bigger and stronger. The 4runner is basically maxed out on durability with mild mods. The LC can take a lot more tire in stock form. And FWIW -

5th gen LT:

Stock LC 200;

 

[STX4Runner]

The big difference is this:

Not really trying to get in this pissing match, but I would think the LC has to have a heavier duty rear axle to handle the extra 1,000 lbs and 100 hp...

 

[Dalko43]

The parts underneath the LC are a lot bigger and stronger. The 4runner is basically maxed out on durability with mild mods. The LC can take a lot more tire in stock form. And FWIW -

Are you maybe passing judgement on the 4runner a little too soon? The 5th gen has been out for all of a few years; I think there is more than enough of a starting foundation which modders and offroaders can work with to turn it into a very reputable trail rig.

If we are going to judge a vehicle's true offroad prowess solely based on the size of its differential, then by that same logic I guess we should consider the Land Rover Defender and Jeep Rubicon to be subpar offroaders?

The 4runner pretty much has all the same offroading tech as the LC 200 series: Rear locking diff; KDSS; solid rear axle; fully boxed frame. I agree some of the components on the 4runner are lighter duty compared to those of the LC 200, but then again the 4runner is a much lighter vehicle, as someone else already pointed out.

I admire the LC 200 series for sure, and if I had the money to buy it and spend on extra gas, I would certainly own one. But for the average SUV owner or offroader, the lighter weight, lower cost, and simplicity of the 4runner just makes more sense, IMHO of course.