Travelin
New member
Gotta agree with you on this.
This is the engine the 4runner needs
- Thread starter wfo9
- Start date
Gotta agree with you on this.
You must be in IT since disruptive is the buzz word of the decade in IT.
The overarching reasons for government clamp-downs on efficiency go far beyond the illusion of "saving" the earth. But that is beyond the scope of this thread.
The repetition used to create the predictive programming that electric and self-driving cars are our future--and that future cannot be altered--is evident in your post. Electric cars appeal to the emotional type since it separates the driver from the combustion of fuels to produce the kinetic energy to propel the car. The electric car driver FEELS better since he/she is distanced from the coal burning at the power plant.
But there is another drawback that no one really talks about that I can't swallow with electric cars: store of energy. A full tank of gasoline with stabilizer could last nearly 2 years without additional energy. How long can a fully charged electric vehicle maintain its full range charge when not plugged in to that magical wall outlet?
Finally, on a completely different point re: offroading, what do you think the fording depth will be with an electric 4x4 that has a battery in the floor pan?
In Audis the caking of intakes is not isolated. There is a difference in being "here to stay" and not being based in reality.
Bumbo
New member
[MENTION=75133]kgbagent[/MENTION] Honestly, probably longer than gas assuming the drive battery isn't used to "keep the clock running" like in any regular car with a starter battery.
Lithium cells which I have had in storage for many years are just as good as they were 3,4,5 years later with no voltage or capacity degradation.
In fact I have some cells out of a Fiat 500e that have been in storage for ages and the haven't lost any voltage and that.s across a batch of 40 kWh worth of cells.
Being "into" DIY electric cars, and 2nd life lithium solar storage using EV cells, its really opened my eyes into how stable battery tech really is.
Lithium cells which I have had in storage for many years are just as good as they were 3,4,5 years later with no voltage or capacity degradation.
In fact I have some cells out of a Fiat 500e that have been in storage for ages and the haven't lost any voltage and that.s across a batch of 40 kWh worth of cells.
Being "into" DIY electric cars, and 2nd life lithium solar storage using EV cells, its really opened my eyes into how stable battery tech really is.
Jetboy
New member
As deep as you want to go. That's one major possible advantage I see to a hybrid powertrain. The ability to plug the intake and use electric drive for deep water crossings. Should be the ideal solution. The electric drive is no doubt waterproof. I've used my winch to get out of water crossings that were over the hood when the engine died. It's actually somewhat common even though you won't see it in youtube videos because it's slow and boring to use the winch alone for deep water crossings and leave the engine turned off.
That is truly impressive if true. Somehow I cannot wrap my mind around zero capacity degradation. I recall a R&T article not too many years ago that indicated a Tesla would "brick" after only a few weeks if not plugged into a maintainer. Then you had a $40K problem on your hands. (The cost of the battery!)
Bumbo
New member
It’s not $40k worth of cells, its 40 kWh, which is about the equivalent capacity of 3 Tesla powerwalls. Still worth thousands, but not $40k. Here are my Fiat 500e cells, Samsung cells manufactured into modules by Bosch. These are going into my house, basically a DIY “Tesla Powerwall”, whole home battery and solar storage.
These cells are from a 2013 and after some initial testing sitting at 4 volts for the past 5 years, everything looks pretty good.
I have some associates who build DIY electric cars for a living… so I get exposure to this sort of thing, and a lot of access to the batteries themselves.
I think they key thing to remember with lithium cells in storage is the voltage that they are stored at. You want to store cells as close to their nominal voltage (3.7 volts) as possible, but even if that isn’t achieved, simply not being fully charged 100% or fully discharged will generally be “good enough”
As far as the Tesla thing… My guess is the battery management… just because a BMS (computer) bricks the battery doesn’t mean the actual cells are bad.
Its cycles, discharge rate, and depth of discharge that degrades lithium cells… so really just sitting on a shelf at the right voltage isn’t a problem. If you baby lithium cells that are in service you could expect a very extended service life.
I have some 4Runner specific projects in the works too that revolve around smaller 18650 lithium cells for a dual battery setups, but details on that later. Here is a teaser of the batteries. It will most likely be built into a base the fridge sits on freeing up space, extending runtime, and performance.
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Ray Dunakin
Senior Member
Electric vehicles will never be practical for anyone who does more than just driving to and from work. Anything else will require recharging, and there are insurmountable obstacles to recharging in as little time as it takes to fill a tank with gas.
Motor Mouth: More inconvenient truths on banning gas engines | Driving
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Motor Mouth: More inconvenient truths on banning gas engines | Driving
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Bumbo
New member
I dunno about "never"
Yep, charge rate is a hurdle, and I completely agree, but last road tip I did 3k miles through remote parts of the state and thought to myself... who just builds all these damn roads, so many miles to create this network... insurmountable obstacles to say the least. Id say creating a charging network would be a lot easier if we REALLY wanted it.
Just look at technology and the rate it accelerates, the crazy stuff people actually create, it really is amazing… getting cars to charge fast is a hurdle, but battery tech keeps progressing as well.
Lithium Titanate (LTO) cells are already here, available in the retail markets. Its next generation battery tech, which has very high charge rates, and high cycle life. Ideal for EV applications… and really its only going to keep getting better.
Trickle down tech… its already happening… The new generation of super-cars, and high end production cars are already going to a high performance hybrid approach with super-caps and other high rate charge/discharge solutions to boost performance and increase efficiency. It may not be 100% electric, but the future of transport has electricity in it, that's for sure.
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I agree fully with he article regarding full electric vehicles but the PHEV are the perfect middle ground for most of the population.
In its current progression, vehicles like the Chevy Volt (not bolt) and Honda Clarity can provide ~50-60 miles in pure electric mode, and be charged (mostly) overnight via a 110v socket. After the battery is depleted, the small gasoline engines will then (depending on driving situation) either power the drive wheels directly OR act as a generator and run to feed the batteries to continue in EV mode OR a combination of driving the wheels while also charging it up.
They are the perfect vehicle for a vast majority of the population that reside in big cities for their weekly commuting, without any of the “range anxiety” of Teslas and the likes for big road trips.
FYI: if your commute is under 50-60miles a day, a lot of the current owners only need to gas up once every few months to account for those long weekend drives.
Cost of commuting goes from $30/fillup x 4+ times a month, to $30/month for the increased electricity bill since most will program the vehicle to charge off-peak hours.
That all being said, if your annual mileage is not that much, the breakeven point to offset the increased prices for PHEV/EV cannot be justified.
I will not hold my breath for Toyota to give us a 4R with such tech, but I’m sure some smartass engineer has brought it up as a bridge between the anemic v6 and the highly lusted for v8. I love the performance of forced induction motors, but not for a company like Toyota-- where folks like most of this forum are not leasing, but buying new/used and keeping for 15-20 years.
wfo9
New member
What makes you think forced induction motors can't go 20 years.. It's odd to me that this misunderstanding still exists today.
You realize that diesels that go million+ miles are forced induction to the 9s.. right? A gas motor can do the same if built right. Even Toyota has done it before in the 90s with the 2jz. And the tech has progressed 10x since then.
The only thing that kills a forced gas motor is detonation. Proper tuning (which is night and day compared to the 90s) is what makes them work so well now). Direct injection is another huge factor since it increases the effective octane of gasoline significantly.
The beauty of it is that it does nothing under cruising conditions. So you get all the efficiency of a small motor with lots of power on tap only when needed. It's more or less dynamic displacement. It just needs good engineering like any NA motor.
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DesertFish
New member
Adding a turbo is just something else to go wrong, and when it goes wrong, its $1200-2200+ repair. Its another possible point of failure in the engine oil system. It usually requires premium fuel, and costs more from the beginning. Yes it gives more pulling power up hills, and it may or may not improve fuel economy, in a performance vehicle sure.
While fuel prices have a big part in the 4R selling better than ever recently, another big part of it is all, other vehicles in the segment jumping on every new feature in search of better fuel economy, better acceleration, and more gadgets. People are realizing while that works in a hot hatch or other vehicle that never leaves a major city, all of those features are a liability out in the desert, or up in the mountains.
While fuel prices have a big part in the 4R selling better than ever recently, another big part of it is all, other vehicles in the segment jumping on every new feature in search of better fuel economy, better acceleration, and more gadgets. People are realizing while that works in a hot hatch or other vehicle that never leaves a major city, all of those features are a liability out in the desert, or up in the mountains.
MidnightOffRoad
New member
Firstly,
I'm not in IT. And no, the word didn't originate in the IT world, it originated in business school and was a buzzword in many industries, not just MIS or IT fields.
The reason I bring it up is because electric locomotion is a perfect example. A fledgling technology that seems to be promising but has current drawbacks that cause MOST people to be dismissive and miss the opportunity.
I'm a car guy. The "supercars" that are being produced that are electric are absolutely mind boggling. As with any tech (like OLED screens for example) they come out and are out of reach for the masses, but with improvements, efficiencies, research/development, over time they become mainstream products or features.
There's no doubt electric locomotion has CURRENT challenges that make it inferior for many trans applications, but they're working on it and rapidly. The range for instance has grown by factors, not increments. There are limitations to the range of an internal combustion application. Sure you can always add fuel cans or larger fuel tanks, but practically speaking, that tech has been largely "tapped out" without combining it with some other tech.
No, a combustion engine (or gasoline) can not go 2 years with storage. Even if you put fuel stabilizer in the vehicle, you're a fool if you try to store a vehicle for 2 years with a full tank of fuel and run the whole thing to empty, even with stabilizer. And not for nothing, that's a pretty obscure issue anyway, most Americans refuel their vehicles regularly. One could make an argument that plugging in the vehicle (anywhere) is easier than pumping fuel.
I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not even cheering for electric, I just see it coming. I own a vehicle that I had to pay "gas guzzler" tax on. I just see the performance potential of electrics far exceeding what's even currently available in gasoline engines.
northcoast
New member
I think what maybe some people are saying... more than that forced induction can't be reliable... is that with more components to fail, there is a fear that has been cultivated from manufacturers' failures to take responsibility for chronic problems (that has a better chance of arising in engines that are more complex). Mazda's 2.4L engine in the CX-7 that cratered at 30k miles, the 2.0L Subaru oil burners from 2012 onward that are using a quart of oil in 1000 miles, etc.... all of these have largely left people holding their d***s with cars that don't work right that can't/won't be fixed under warranty. Is it a warranted fear or is it blown out of proportion? Don't know. But it's out there. These car companies will do anything not to pay when their product doesn't work properly, and with the invention of social media, it spreads like wild fire sometimes, building the paranoia going forward.
I think that's why a lot of people have answered "give me the tried and true legacy engine" in this thread. I'd love more power. But I sleep better knowing I'm getting a product that has very little history of failing. I had a car with a chronic failure that wouldn't get fixed under warranty. It blows.
AB4RFan
Member
I have an XLT with a V8 and Borla exhaust. The 5.0 is offered in all trims, and yes the 5.0 sounds amazing. And it is legendary reliability too. My truck gets as good if not better fuel milage than our 4Runner.
Bumbo
New member
I agree, 100%
One only needs to keep eyes on a company like EV West in San Diego to see what is being done in the space...
This is what they were doing 5 years ago in 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJVtGmEUOpQ&t
2 Years Ago
(100% sustainable self-generated renewable gas station) He charges his cars, and the rest of their electric fleet off the power they make themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kXTqNqxK3s
And Today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=racUCpe86uA
I've gotten a chance to drive in the some of stuff they have made... the performance and what they are building is absolutely awesome.
They even have a fully electric FJ in the works... so many awesome projects they have completed.
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Yeah, right. And this was 32 years ago!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uFLSxkXsU1Y
They must have left the KDSS off since they deemed it unreliable?
Jetboy
New member
Electric cars are the future of most local transportation. They will be electric. You won't own them. And they will be self driving and available on demand like UBER. Then charging time doesn't matter. They go charge themselves when no one is riding. Range doesn't matter. As you near the end of the battery range, another fully charged car will be waiting. You won't recharge. You'll simply step out of the one you're in and into the one waiting to continue your trip. And the costs will be lower than owning your own car by a significant margin. There will also be a small portion of personally owned gas/diesel cars, but the primary future is electric self driving cars. The only current bottle neck is the self driving function, but it's moving quickly. Everything else we already have.
The enthusiast cars will remain.
The enthusiast cars will remain.
baldrik78
New member
The US has lot of sparsely populated rural areas. I only see this model working for about half of the population.
